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I'm asking for clarification on an ability.
At a recent convention, several players said I needed to load a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone into my Wayfinder as it would prevent mind affecting attacks such as "Confusion" from affecting my character.
I mentioned this last night with my gaming group, and they flat out told me that the players that said this were vastly confused in the matter, stating that the Resonate effect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder would only prevent Mind Control and possession attempts (ie. Dominate, etc.).
Can I get an official ruling from someone w/ Paizo on what the Resonate affect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder does and doesn't do for the person carrying said Wayfinder?
Tarrintino
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I'm asking for clarification on an ability.
At a recent convention, several players said I needed to load a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone into my Wayfinder as it would prevent mind affecting attacks such as "Confusion" from affecting my character.
I mentioned this last night with my gaming group, and they flat out told me that the players that said this were vastly confused in the matter, stating that the Resonate effect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder would only prevent Mind Control and possession attempts (ie. Dominate, etc.).
Can I get an official ruling from someone w/ Paizo on what the Resonate affect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder does and doesn't do for the person carrying said Wayfinder?
Tarrintino
The resonant power works like Protection from Evil the Spell except it is not conditioned on alignment. Hope that helps.
Nathan
NYC
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm asking for clarification on an ability.
At a recent convention, several players said I needed to load a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone into my Wayfinder as it would prevent mind affecting attacks such as "Confusion" from affecting my character.
I mentioned this last night with my gaming group, and they flat out told me that the players that said this were vastly confused in the matter, stating that the Resonate effect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder would only prevent Mind Control and possession attempts (ie. Dominate, etc.).
Can I get an official ruling from someone w/ Paizo on what the Resonate affect of a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder does and doesn't do for the person carrying said Wayfinder?
Tarrintino
The resonant power works like Protection from Evil the Spell except it is not conditioned on alignment. Hope that helps.
Nathan
NYC
That is actually where the arguement begins for most people. It has been a long and tedious battle against Protection from evil being equivalent to an 8th level spell.
Prot. Evil protects you from enchantment spells and effects that grant on-going control. The problem is, people say spells like Confusion, Hold Person, and even Charm Person (Which grants NO control) are shut out by this Super-ultra-mega first level spell. While some of these spells may influence your actions... They grant no degree of control over them.
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Yes and people don't go through and actually read the whole spell.
Paraphrasing Protection from Evil:
The target gets a new saving throw at +2 (if one was allowed initially) and if the save is successful then the spell is supressed for the duration of the Protection Spell. This save is only against spells and effects that posses or excercise mental control [including Charm effects and enchantment Compulsion effects].
I think the confusion, pun intended, comes from the original 3.5 version where I believe there was an automatic supression for the duration of the Protection Spell, not just a new saving throw.
Nathan
NYC
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Protection from Evil imbues upon its target immunity to any new compulsion or charm effects regardless of the alignment of the effect's creator. By extension this broken (a term I don't use lightly) combination prevents the owner from being affected by spells like Confusion, Hold Person, and sleep.
This combination doesn't require any slots, is permanent, and only costs 4,250 gp. For that minor cost, you completely negate an entire school of magic.
Why bother with Iron Will, and Improved Iron Will, when you can just spend a few gp and get this?
Why does an item that allows you to live w/o food and water grant a resonant power that protects you vs. mind-affecting effects?
I think the confusion, pun intended, comes from the original 3.5 version where I believe there was an automatic supression for the duration of the Protection Spell, not just a new saving throw.
No, the confusion comes from the wishy-washy term "mental control".
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I'm probably wrong, but I've applied it as immunity to any spell with the descriptors of Charm or Compulsion. I've also applied it as if it was the protection from evil spell itself, meaning only applying it to evil casters/evil spells.
Personally I just wish it was the reroll with +2 bonus, because it is far too powerful for the current price.
WHY aren´t I seeing a FAQ button in this thread?
I CANsee how people would interpret the Prot/Evil wording either way,
though since it used the word ´including...´ rather than ´such as Charm and Compulsion effects´,
I interpret that as a reminder that Charm/Compulsions MAY qualify as mind-controlling,
NOT that ALL Charm/Compulsions are automatically affected by the spell... And the description is otherwise very clear of it´s intent: ¨ONLY against spells and effects that posses or excercise mental control¨. The in-passage mention of Charm/Compulsion doesn´t bypass that ONLY restriction, IMHO.
But it´s not ideal wording, and deserves at least a FAQ, if not Errata to tighten up the wording.
So why isn´t there a FAQ button!? Has Paizo thrown in the towl on doing more Errata!? :-)
Per the CRB:
"...any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects)."
and
"This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion."
So that means your non-evil Succubus, Vampire, or BBEG NPC can still affect the PC! yay?
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Obviously this requires some developer feedback. Although, this is mostly a PFS issue, the material is in a book (Seeker of Secrets) and can be used along with the Faction Guide for all manner of game. Being one of the "offenders" that uses the wayfinder/Clea Spindle to protect against things like Dominate Person, Hideous Laughter, and Confusion, I'd like to hear an official ruling. If it works as most are using it, then scenario writers should just ignore the enchantment school at mid/high tiers, since most PC's will have one by then.
Protection from Evil imbues upon its target immunity to any new compulsion or charm effects regardless of the alignment of the effect's creator.
Nope.
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects)...This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
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Obviously this requires some developer feedback. Although, this is mostly a PFS issue, the material is in a book (Seeker of Secrets) and can be used along with the Faction Guide for all manner of game. Being one of the "offenders" that uses the wayfinder/Clea Spindle to protect against things like Dominate Person, Hideous Laughter, and Confusion, I'd like to hear an official ruling. If it works as most are using it, then scenario writers should just ignore the enchantment school at mid/high tiers, since most PC's will have one by then.
Looks like some enemies of the Pathfinder Society in the know might start targeting Wayfinders for Sundering or Disintegration or maybe wait for them to be used as light sources, then start to use the mind-affecting spells.....
Being one of the "offenders" that uses the wayfinder/Clea Spindle to protect against things like Dominate Person, Hideous Laughter, and Confusion, I'd like to hear an official ruling.
For the record, I imagine everyone thinks it would work against a Dominate Person effect from an evil source.
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For the record, I imagine everyone thinks it would work against a Dominate Person effect from an evil source.
By using "thinks" are you alluding that it would not work? Dominate is clearly a compulsion/mental control spell and since the resonant power is not restricted by alignment, yes it would block it.
If it works as most are using it, then scenario writers should just ignore the enchantment school at mid/high tiers, since most PC's will have one by then.
This, to me, is a red flag that even if it's intended to work this way, it's a terrible idea.
Mostly I think Team Paizo does a great job with design but now and again there's something that really leaves me puzzled.
For the record, I imagine everyone thinks it would work against a Dominate Person effect from an evil source.By using "thinks" are you alluding that it would not work? Dominate is clearly a compulsion/mental control spell and since the resonant power is not restricted by alignment, yes it would block it.
When I say "everyone thinks it would work", I mean "everyone agrees it would work". I'm not subtle enough to allude to something different. :-)
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Clear spindle: Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).
Protection from Evil
This spell wards a creature from mental control. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject.While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
To be honest, RAW would only allow it to work against "spells and effects created by evil creatures", but I suspect that they meant it worked in a similar way to Protection from Evil, not that it was Protection from Evil, rather that that is where the generic effect is defined, and that it is non-aligned, and should be a more generic effect, Protection from Mental Control.
While under the effects of this resonance, the bearer is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the bearer. This resonance does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the bearer.
Fairly powerful, but still limited.
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Clear spindle: Protection from possession and mental control (as protection from evil).Protection from Evil
This spell wards a creature from mental control. It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject.While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.
To be honest, RAW would only allow it to work against "spells and effects created by evil creatures", but I suspect that they meant it worked in a similar way to Protection from Evil, not that it was Protection from Evil, rather that that is where the generic effect is defined, and that it is non-aligned, and should be a more generic effect, Protection from Mental Control.
While under the effects of this resonance, the bearer is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the bearer. This resonance does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the bearer.Fairly powerful, but still limited.
This discussion is going off on the wrong way. The question wasn't in the alignment.
"Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects)."
This is the sentence that is being assaulted.
Some Enchantment [charm] and [compulsion] effects do exercise mental control. MOST do not. The spell is just saying that it protects you against those that do.
It is actually worded properly.
What should set you off to the correct answer is Mind Blank. The 8th level spell doesn't even make you immune to Mind-Effecting spells and effects. What makes you think a 1st level spell does?
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So to recap, there are two independent aspects to this topic:
(1) The impact of alignment on Protection from Evil vs. a loaded Wayfinder
(2) Whether or not the spell affects all mental compulsions/charms or just ones that direct, ongoing control by the caster over the subject.
For the first case, it is clear by RAW in Seeker of Secrets, that the alignment of the mind-controller is not relevant in regards to the Wayfinder/Ioun Stone combination. This part should not be in question.
However, for part II, it is an interpretation of the language. Herein lies the problem. In a home game, it is easy to adjudicate this, but in organized play, it is never a good idea to leave such an overly impacting rule to be up to the table GM. Since the cost of the combo is roughly equivalent to a +2 suit of light armor, it is a relatively large investment for the owner. I know that I would be rather peeved, if I spent that much on a item only to have a table GM nerf it. Especially, after using it prior, without issue. Not to mention that if I assume the combo protects against those effects, I will not invest other resources into blocking them. When the GM says no in the middle of a mod, it could easily result in PC death. Clearly this is a polarizing rule and the community will not reach a consensus. We need developer assistance. However, I do not think it will happen since, as I said, in regular PRPG play, the GM can make his/her own decision. By moving this topic from the PFS boards to the rules boards, I do not know if itwill be seen by Hyrum/Mark, who need to weigh in.
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Mind affecting is not the same descriptor as compulsion and control.
I used "mind-controler" as a general term to describe the caster. I was not trying to indicate that all spells/effects with the "mind-effecting" descriptor are handled the same.
Dominate and Charm are compulsions, Confusion, Fear effects, and Sleep are not. Nor are the bulk of illusions.
According to my CRB, Confusion and Sleep are both compulsions and therefore affected by Protection from Evil.
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if I were your DM you would be wrong.
Exactly my point. Both sides on this topic are polarized. I disagree. By my interpretation Charm and Compulsion are clarifications of what the developers meant by "mental control." Since I see nothing specifically regarding ongoing effects (other than a bonus save), I assume there is no such restriction. Charm/compulsions by their very nature constitute mental control, however brief. IMO, Protection from Evil works on those and therefore, the Wayfinder/Ioun Stone would as well.
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Compulsion in this case is a spell tag, like Fire or Evil. It's part of the spell description, and unless you're houseruling away spell tags, the Sleep and Confusion spells in the Core RuleBook are indeed Compulsion tagged, and would, according to the Rules As Written, be affected by Protection from Alignment.According to my CRB, Confusion and Sleep are both compulsions and therefore affected by Protection from Evil.That depends on what you think constitutes mental control ... if I were your DM you would be wrong.
No one is ruling out descriptors.
The spell says "any spell or effect that possesses or exercises mental control (including charm and compulsion effects)"
If it excercises mental control and has the descriptor....you are protected. This first level spell does not complety nullify an entire school of magic...
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if I were your DM you would be wrong.Exactly my point. Both sides on this topic are polarized. I disagree. By my interpretation Charm and Compulsion are clarifications of what the developers meant by "mental control." Since I see nothing specifically regarding ongoing effects (other than a bonus save), I assume there is no such restriction. Charm/compulsions by their very nature constitute mental control, however brief. IMO, Protection from Evil works on those and therefore, the Wayfinder/Ioun Stone would as well.
Most charms/compulsions influence your actions not control them. If I cast confusion on you...no one is in control....I can charm you into thinking I'm your ally but I can't make you kill your friends.
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Page 210 in the Core Rulebook
Enchantment
Enchantment spells affect the mind of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.
All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two subschools of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.
Charm: A Charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.
The description further breaks down the descriptors. Only one of the possibilities is any kind of control. Protection from evil protects you against (charms) and (compulsions) that possess or exercise mental control.
For some reason I feel that this will not even help the cause. If you take a step back, do you actually think that it only costs 4,250 gold to negate a school of magic?
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If you take a step back, do you actually think that it only costs 4,250 gold to negate a school of magic?
There are numerous rules that do necessarily make logical sense to all readers. This is the essence of the issue. Obviously, most of those on either side of this issue are firmly planted and will not budge. I guess I am one of them. To continue spinning the broken record, this is why I think it is imperative that we get some feedback from Hyrum or Mark on this issue, specifically for organized play. The problem with that is Seeker of Secrets is not a PFS specific publication. Any rule they make may be interpreted as being an FAQ-like ruling for all PRPG. They may not be prepared to make that decision.
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Question, where is the RAW for wayfinder. I found it in the campaign setting, but where is the info about it's reactions with ioun stones. Where are you pulling this from?
There are additional rules in the "Seeker of Secrets" book which grant resonant benefits if you use Wayfinders with Ioun Stones loaded into them.
In this case it gives a sort of permanent Protection from Evil effect but all of them have resonance effects.
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This is not a Pathfinder Society question, it is a rules question for the entire role playing game
While I think that this is partially true, in a non-organized play scenario, the GM can just make their own decision. We have done that for years. Heck if I want all the Drow in my world to be good instead of evil, I can. Honestly, I do not need a developer to chime in on a ruling that I make in my home game. If my players are okay with it, then what someone else says means little to me.
My issue with this, and other disputed rules, is that in OP, it is expected to be consistent for all players. You can probably have more control in your own local market, but when it comes to convention settings or playing in other regions, you must have consistency. Whether it be Wayfinders, Hide in Plain Sight, Stealth, etc., no one wants a major resource or a key ability to be nerfed by the GM because their interpretation of a ruling differs from the previous GM's they have played with. I feel like I keep repeating the same issue, but it seems like no one "gets" what I am saying. I guess I need to just let it go, but without some feedback from the developers, this issue could result in a table conflict at a convention like PaizoCon or GenCon. I hope it doesn't, but having experienced player over-reaction in the past, it wouldn't shock me. There are a number of experienced and knowledgeable GM's, whose opinion I respect, that believe the combo works against all charms and compulsions and I will continue to use mine (and allow others to use theirs), until an official ruling comes out to the contrary.
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To further clarify the spell does not block effects which do not put the subject under direct mental control. Charm Person for instance does not make you the controller of the target, it changes the target's view of you. Sleep, likewise is mind affecting but not a control or posession spell.
Its not gonna work. Further posting in this thread is just causing both sides to beat their heads into a wall.
I doubt Paizo is ever going to errata this... WotC never did in 3.5 and there was the same problem.
I feel like I keep repeating the same issue, but it seems like no one "gets" what I am saying.
No, I totally understand; the language is undeniably ambiguous.
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For those of you that are going to continue to use it in the fashion that makes you immune to charms and compulsions. Make sure you are excluded from all Bless, Aid, Heroism and the other Compulsion buff spells too since you're immune to them.
now Sir, you really make my head hurt. will have to look them up mow.
For those of you that are going to continue to use it in the fashion that makes you immune to charms and compulsions. Make sure you are excluded from all Bless, Aid, Heroism and the other Compulsion buff spells too since you're immune to them.
This would only apply to the version that isn't restricted to alignment of course. Assuming your fellow party members aren't of an alignment you'd need protection from.
I'll add my voice to those that believe that a) the spell is poorly worded and b) that it's not intended to negate spells that don't exercise direct mental control.
That said, even if I'm wrong I don't think the issue is with the spell itself, but rather the magic item. I can definitely see the use of someone casting a spell, even a low-level one, to grant new saves against sleep or confusion. I can even see it being used as a pre-buff, if you know you're going up against something that could potentially cause those effects. Where it gets broken is when you have an always-on magic item that no longer requires the expenditure of resources beyond the initial purchase price, and that goes beyond the limits of the spell (no alignment restriction).
I think perhaps it would be properly balanced if it was priced as not just a Protection from Evil effect, but also included Protection from Good, Law & Chaos. And of course, it still wouldn't protect you from Neutral creatures.
Let's look at the pricing guidelines in fact. Base is 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2000. Double for being a 1 min/lvl duration, double again for being slotless. That's at least 6000 GP right there, possibly 8000 depending on how you interpret two doubles in this case (as a triple, or two separate doublings). And that still only protects you against Evil. To add additional similar abilities to an item that doesn't take space on the body, it's an additional 75% for the 1st, and 50% for each additional. We'll go with the 6000 base for now, and even then that adds up to a total of 16,500 for all four spells to be included.
So yeah... it's not the spell that's the problem. The item is simply WAY underpriced.
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For those of you that are going to continue to use it in the fashion that makes you immune to charms and compulsions. Make sure you are excluded from all Bless, Aid, Heroism and the other Compulsion buff spells too since you're immune to them.
Very good point. One I hadn't thought about, but will begin pointing out to my players.