Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone = Protection from ALL mind attacks?


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

hold person:
enchantment
COMPULSION
com·pul·sion/kəmˈpəlSHən/
Noun:
The action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
An irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, esp. against one's conscious wishes.

EVEN HOLD PERSON IS A MENTAL COMMAND TO FREEZE IN PLACE!

I'd say hold person does do mental control to force a person to go against their will by constraining themselves. Also aren't the 3.5 FAQ not PFS legal?

Also "such as" doesn't mean "only" command, charm person, and dominate person. Isn't Hold Person a continue Command "halt"? It's like command "halt" which makes you not be able to do anything lasting rounds/level of caster instead of just 1 round.

Can you link where a developer or designer of paizo has made a ruling on this? I've not been able to find any of them touching this topic.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

poundpuppy30 wrote:
Also aren't the 3.5 FAQ not PFS legal?

No, they're not. That's a different game written by a different company. Heck, the 3.5 FAQs aren't even OGL content, so PFS can't use them.

And speaking of FAQs...

Quote:
Can you link where a developer or designer of paizo has made a ruling on this? I've not been able to find any of them touching this topic.

Who exactly did you think wrote the Pathfinder FAQ that explicitly says PfE does NOT apply to all compulsions?


Quote:
The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")

Link to the FAQ

Silver Crusade

You mean this?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")

protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person

Again I keep seeing works on charm and >>>Compulsion Effects<<< where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, >>>Such As<<< command. charm person and dominate person. I don't see >>Only<< command, charm person and dominate person.

Such as is used to give examples.

Doesn't Command Great work just like Hold Person if you use the Halt affect? Both prevent the person from doing anything for many rounds where they sit there restrained.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

poundpuppy30 wrote:
I don't see >>Only<< command, charm person and dominate person.
The FAQ you just referenced wrote:
protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person

It's not only those three spells, but it is only the subset of compulsions "where the caster is able to exercise control over the target". Literacy tells us this does not include all compulsions; otherwise that sentence has no meaning. So there are some compulsions which "exercise mental control over the target", and some that do not; PfE only affects the ones that do.

And no matter how many times you point out that Merriam-Webster's compulsions would all qualify, it doesn't change the fact that Pathfinder's compulsions don't all qualify; only the ones that are like the listed examples count.

Silver Crusade

Isn't Hold Person the same as Command Greater: Halt in effect?


The definition holds no meaning here. FAQ tries to point out is clearly not all compulsions. So, then it becomes a question of "what spells exercise control over the target". It gives us a vague idea by telling us three that specifically do, "such as command, charm person, and dominate person". It then also goes on to say spells such as Sleep and Confusion aren't affected by PfE.

So, then the question becomes is your spell more like the first group or second group? To me, the first group is about being able to exercise control. Not just compelling them, but telling them to do something.

Hold person doesn't involve a command or exercising control. Rather, it seems more like sleep in that it overrides the function of the brain and prevents the creature from moving.

And no, Command Greater Halt is no like Hold Person. Hold Person makes you paralyzed. Which renders you helpless. Your Dex is effectively 0.

Halt says you can't take any actions, but doesn't negatively affect your defenses or make you helpless.


It is pretty obvious that hold person is a lot more like sleep or confusion than it is like command or charm.

The argument that hold person is "just like a command to halt" is a spectacularly bad argument. A wish can duplicate the power of any lower-level sor/wiz spell. Therefore a wish can be used to cast magic missile. Therefore, if we accept your argument, magic missile is the same effect as wish.

That a command-type spell could be used to have an effect similar to that of hold person doesn't mean that hold person is the same kind of spell as command. The key is that the command spell could also do things that are completely different from what hold person does. Hold person, obviously, can't.

The key distinction here seems to be whether the spell alone determines what the target does, or whether the caster gets to decide what to make the target do. The latter category is covered, the former isn't. It has to be up to the caster what effects they want to produce; a single fixed effect, or a random effect like confusion which is outside the caster's control, doesn't count.

In the absence of the FAQ, you'd have a case. We have a FAQ, from the design team, and it's pretty solidly unambiguous at this point. In fact, the example of sleep is pretty much exactly on-point for your question.


poundpuppy30 wrote:
Isn't Hold Person the same as Command Greater: Halt in effect?

"Command Greater: Halt" is not a spell.

"Command" is a spell, and "Command, Greater" is a spell. Each of these spells allows the caster to decide what to make an enemy do.

By contrast, Hold Person always makes the target do the same thing, no matter what the caster wants.

(EDIT: Also, as I recall, consensus is that held targets are paralyzed and can still take purely-mental actions if they have any. Furthermore, command-to-halt doesn't impose paralysis, and as such is probably not affected by freedom of movement. They're very different spells.)

Silver Crusade

But Command Greater Halt makes a person stand there unable to do anything while Hold Person makes a person stand there unable to do anything also and each of those spells lets you have a new save each round.


poundpuppy30 wrote:
But Command Greater Halt makes a person stand there unable to do anything while Hold Person makes a person stand there unable to do anything also and each of those spells lets you have a new save each round.

Reread my last post, there are other important differences.


poundpuppy30 wrote:
But Command Greater Halt makes a person stand there unable to do anything while Hold Person makes a person stand there unable to do anything also and each of those spells lets you have a new save each round.

I am not really seeing any point in continuing this discussion. You're not making an argument which has the potential to persuade anyone, you're not responding to criticisms or counterpoints to your argument, and your argument is so fundamentally and deeply flawed that it's really hard for me to maintain the pretense that it's a real argument for long enough to write a post.

Does the caster, when casting the spell or thereafter, get to decide what the target does, or does the spell itself define what the target will do? If it's the latter, it's not a spell that exercises mental control over the creature.

Hmm.

PRD wrote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person. This saving throw is made with a +2 morale bonus, using the same DC as the original effect. If successful, such effects are suppressed for the duration of this spell. The effects resume when the duration of this spell expires. While under the effects of this spell, the target is immune to any new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target. This spell does not expel a controlling life force (such as a ghost or spellcaster using magic jar), but it does prevent them from controlling the target. This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects, subject to GM discretion.

Now I wonder where the missing ) is, though.

In d20, it was a little simpler:

d20 wrote:
(including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)

Looking at the PDF, it appears the missing ) should be after "dominate person" again.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that, despite the inexplicable edit, the intent is to cover spells which allow the caster to determine your actions, not spells which themselves determine your actions, because it's specifically addressing "making you do things", not "preventing you from doing things". That one of the things you can be made to do is "nothing" doesn't erase that distinction.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

poundpuppy30 wrote:
But Command Greater Halt makes a person stand there unable to do anything while Hold Person makes a person stand there unable to do anything also and each of those spells lets you have a new save each round.

So what? You could use dominate person to tell someone to take a nap or to act randomly, but that doesn't mean that sleep or confusion count as being the same sort of effect as dominate person.

Just because you can use Spell X to create a situation that resembles what Spell Y does, doesn't mean that Spell X and Spell Y are fundamentally the same kind of thing.

Silver Crusade

Jiggy I was trying to show the caster of Command Greater: Halt was restraining the person same way Hold Person does but I see Hold Person is like a paralysis since you aren't totally helpless with command greater. You were asking which set is hold person close to. If it wasn't for the Paralysis and it let you not be totally helpless then it would be same as command greater in every way. I see that the paralysis swings it toward the Sleep group.


You can look at it another way:

Command, Charm Person, Dominate Person allow the caster to choose what the target will do. It's at least a subset of things, but it's active control after the spell is cast.

Hold Person, Confusion and Sleep do one specific thing to a target, there's only one function to the spell. The caster isn't exerting control over a target, they're affecting that target with a spell effect.

The choice of effect indicates that the caster is exerting mental control of a subject. Predefined effects are not mental control, they're simply spell effects.


Akerlof's got it. That you can replicate, at least approximately, one of many effects of one spell with another doesn't make them interchangeable.

Even if greater command explicitly said "Halt: This operates exactly and in every possible way precisely identically to hold person and is really absolutely interchangeable with that and there are no differences at all", it still wouldn't give you even the tiniest bit of support for the theory that protection from evil should protect against hold person.

Command can do other things. If hold person can't, it's lacking the essential character that makes command and charm person similar, even if there's some coincidental overlap in their ultimate effects.

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