Aid Another in Skills


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Liberty's Edge

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Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ok we are having a little confusing on Aid Another.

I originally ruled this line

Pathfinder Rules Pg 86 wrote:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

to mean if you cannot perform the skill on your own, to include not being able to make the target number, that you can not "Aid Another". My players disagree with me, they think it only means that skill that require you have it trained to be used are only limited with Aid Another.

I admit I could be wrong, but if that was the case it would have been much easier and clearer just to state in that part, If you do not have at least 1 rank in a Skill that requires Trained only you can not Aid Another in that skill, and Left it at that.


You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me.

Well if you can't hit the Target number, you can't perform the skill on your own, can you?

Scarab Sages

Yeah, I could see it working that way. Just remember the line about *could* achieve on their own means that you have to factor in all the bonuses that the character *could* have, which almost renders it meaningless anyways.


Dragnmoon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me.
Well if you can't hit the Target number, you can't perform the skill on your own, can you?

Not being able to perform the skill, and not being able to hit the target DC are not the same thing.

Example: The DC to open a lock is 30. Maybe even on a nat 20 I can only get a 29. Not being able to get a 30 means I can hit the target number, but I only need to be able to hit a 10, and be able to pick locks to aid another.

Now if I had no ranks in a "trained only" skill then no I could not assist.


wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me.

+1

I agree here. My understanding and the way it is written implies that you must at least be able to attempted the skill in question. For example anyone can aid other on a survival check because anyone can take the check untrained but to aid other on the mentioned Disable device check you must have at least one rank in the skill because the skill can not be used untrained.


I think I misunderstood you initially. My last post better illustrates what I was trying to say.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me.
Well if you can't hit the Target number, you can't perform the skill on your own, can you?
Not being able to perform the skill, and not being able to hit the target DC are not the same thing.

But they have to be able to Achieve it, and if you can not get the target number, you can not achieve it.

Edit: I am mostly playing Devils advocate here now, and just making a point that the poor wording they used can be interpreted my way.


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"skills that restrict who can achieve certain results" like how you need trapfinding or similar ability to disarm magical traps, etc.

Liberty's Edge

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Kierato wrote:
"skills that restrict who can achieve certain results" like how you need trapfinding or similar ability to disarm magical traps, etc.

that is an example... but the book is known for using poor examples that lean to ruling that it did not mean, So i try not to put too much into them. Like I said, I am more leaning towards that now, but I think it should be made clearer because the wording can be interpreted the way I initially said it.


Also, if you have to be able to hit the target number to Aid Another, but using the skill otherwise has no restrictions, then the sample character in wraithstrike's example could not aid a master rogue in his disable device check, however the rogue could aid him.

Liberty's Edge

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Quantum Steve wrote:
Also, if you have to be able to hit the target number to Aid Another, but using the skill otherwise has no restrictions, then the sample character in wraithstrike's example could not aid a master rogue in his disable device check, however the rogue could aid him.

yup... But that would be silly!!! you would want the best person doing the initial roll!

I see Aid Another as an ability to use when you need something to work the First time, and not something you have plenty of time to do.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've always ruled it, and it's always been ruled in games I've played in, as Wraith and the others have stated. You have to be able to use the skill. If it's a trained only, you can't use it. If it's magical traps and you don't have trapfinding, you can't aid with that. If it's tracking, and you don't have tracking, you can't aid with the tracking check no matter how high your survival skill is.

Another example would be a character with scent doing the tracking. Even if a ranger was in the party, he couldn't assist the scent tracking character, since he doesn't have scent. They could both attempt to track, or the scent tracker could help the ranger, but the ranger couldn't help the scent tracker.

If you require that the assistant has to be able to succeed, you negate the entire concept of apprentice and journeymen crafters helping masters. A master craftsman usually has an entire staff of journeymen and apprentices, all helping on large or complex projects. However, if he's making a masterpiece clockwork stallion with a DC of 35, then with the interpretation that all helpers have to be able to roll a 35 means there is not a single thing in the project they can do, which just isn't the case. Even just cleaning up or running for supplies or polishing is helping with the project, if in no other way it frees up the master and journeymen to do the real grunt work.

Liberty's Edge

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I would also add, that a Non Rogue, even if he had Disable Device could not Aid Another in disarming a Magical Trap.

Liberty's Edge

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mdt wrote:

If you require that the assistant has to be able to succeed, you negate the entire concept of apprentice and journeymen crafters helping masters. A master craftsman usually has an entire staff of journeymen and apprentices, all helping on large or complex projects. However, if he's making a masterpiece clockwork stallion with a DC of 35, then with the interpretation that all helpers have to be able to roll a 35 means there is not a single thing in the project they can do, which just isn't the case. Even just cleaning up or running for supplies or polishing is helping with the project, if in no other way it frees up the master and journeymen to do the real grunt work.

This is a good argument here.


Dragnmoon wrote:


But they have to be able to Achieve it, and if you can not get the target number, you can not achieve it.

Edit: I am mostly playing Devils advocate here now, and just making a point that the poor wording they used can be interpreted my way.

Well this argument is actually pretty easily shot down considering the player doesn't know what the DC is, so therefore can attempt something with any DC. You have no idea the DC is 30, so how can you know your not allowed to try it?

Liberty's Edge

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Shadow_of_death wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:


But they have to be able to Achieve it, and if you can not get the target number, you can not achieve it.

Edit: I am mostly playing Devils advocate here now, and just making a point that the poor wording they used can be interpreted my way.

Well this argument is actually pretty easily shot down considering the player doesn't know what the DC is, so therefore can attempt something with any DC. You have no idea the DC is 30, so how can you know your not allowed to try it?

The GM can easily just say you fail to Aid Another with out telling them the DC.


Dragnmoon wrote:
The GM can easily just say you fail to Aid Another with out telling them the DC.

Where is that in the rules? I thought we were stating rules... hell the DM can just say you made it regardless, that doesn't change the argument about the rules.

Besides you can't fail to aid another if you aren't allowed to try in the first place


There are a couple of places in the book that are easily open to interpretation if someone wants them to be.

Shadow Lodge

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mdt wrote:
If it's tracking, and you don't have tracking, you can't aid with the tracking check no matter how high your survival skill is.

Except for the part where tracking is just a survival check now, so anyone that can use survival can track, no training is even necessary. (I was surprised, I had to double check, but the Track feat doesn't exist in Pathfinder.) [/nitpick]


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
mdt wrote:
If it's tracking, and you don't have tracking, you can't aid with the tracking check no matter how high your survival skill is.
Except for the part where tracking is just a survival check now, so anyone that can use survival can track, no training is even necessary. (I was surprised, I had to double check, but the Track feat doesn't exist in Pathfinder.) [/nitpick]

Huh, another good thing to find out. :) My statement then still stands for helping someone use scent to track. No matter how high your survival skill, if you don't have scent, you can't assist with tracking by scent.


Imagine one following the visual trail, one following the scent trail, and comparing notes.


About aid an other. am I the only one that think it's a stupid mechanism?

Quote:
If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.

This means that if you roll a 10 or more, you can offer a bonus. it's not a dc to hit, it's simply a 50-50 chance.

And 2 experts with +30 in a single skills can still only offer a +2 bonus to each other.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tie it to effect skills rolls with dc. Something like dc = 10 gives a +2, dc = 20 gives +3 etc.


In CA, they added rules for aid another scaling.


Karel Gheysens wrote:

About aid an other. am I the only one that think it's a stupid mechanism?

Quote:
If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.

This means that if you roll a 10 or more, you can offer a bonus. it's not a dc to hit, it's simply a 50-50 chance.

And 2 experts with +30 in a single skills can still only offer a +2 bonus to each other.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to tie it to effect skills rolls with dc. Something like dc = 10 gives a +2, dc = 20 gives +3 etc.

It think it is done that way to because if higher rolls gave higher bonus then DC's would be way to easy or the DC's would scale with the intention of challenging 2 PC's, and one PC without any help would never pass a check.

The Exchange

Kierato wrote:
In CA, they added rules for aid another scaling.

Yep, in Complete Adventurer and the Epic Level Handbook it's: "dc = 10 gives a +2, dc = 20 gives +3 etc."

And in Iron Heroes it's: DC 10 = +2, DC 15 = +3, etc.


Karel Gheysens wrote:

About aid an other. am I the only one that think it's a stupid mechanism?

Quote:
If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.
This means that if you roll a 10 or more, you can offer a bonus. it's not a dc to hit, it's simply a 50-50 chance.

It is not a straight roll. You make a skill check of using the same skill as the one you're aiding. Finnish reading the whole section.

Quote:
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check.

It is a skill check and uses your full bonus to that check. 1d20 + ranks + stat + mods > 10 gives someone else a +2 on their roll.

It is actually very useful when you use skill everyone can participate in. For example a diplomatic encounter, why not let the whole party contribute. Your face is the main roller, with everyone else using Aid Another. In a typical party of 4 you could get and extra +6 to the roll. Which is more then enough to actually bump an NPC's reaction up one step just from that assistance. If diplomacy is hard to see, try picturing it with a Intimidation and I think you'll get the point.

Granted some GM control exists on making rulings, deciding how many people can actually help in a given situation. It is a little difficult for more then one person to physically pick a lock at time.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I usually limit the bonus based on the number of people helping.

1 Person : +2
2 People : +4
4 People : +6
8 People : +8

and so forth. Basically, every time you double the number of people, you gain a +2. Up to the amount who can actually help. For most jobs, that's 1 to 4 people. On the other hand, a large undertaking like building a fortress, or a ship, or a bridge, well, you can get a lot of bonuses for a big workforce. Which is kind of the point, since it's not hard to build a bridge or fortress or ship, it's just a lot of work. Put enough people on it to boost the check, and you complete it quicker. One of the few bits of the rules that actually make sense when it comes to crafting.

Liberty's Edge

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Since the question is related, decided to bring up an old thread.

So I have been convinced I was wrong above, so no reason to continue that, but I have a question dealing with Aid Another and Knowledge.

So I had a player last night that wanted to Aid Another with Knowledge (local) even though he did not have the Skill. His argument was that since the target for Aid Another was a 10 he could make the Aid Another check because Knowledge allows you to make untrained checks for targets of 10 or lower.

My Argument was that he can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that his character couldn’t achieve alone, which is words directly from the rule Aid Another. Since He can't normally do the check himself since the target was above 10, he can't Aid him.

What do you guys think?


You can never use aid an other on knowledge checks, there is just noting beneficial you can do.

Furthermore, as you said, it's literally in the rules; he can only use aid an other untrained (for trained checks) if the DC is less than 10 for the check.

this seem very clear cut. not sure what else I can say.

Liberty's Edge

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arioreo wrote:
You can never use aid an other on knowledge checks, there is just noting beneficial you can do.

This I don't agree with, I don't see why if someone had the Skill they could not aid.

They can help with research, they could remember something that would help lead the main person making the roll in the right direction, etc.

Scarab Sages

I'd allow it, but it would be one of those situations that would warrant an upper cap on the total bonus that could be gained.

If the main skill roller has access to a library, and the GM has already decided that the clue to their conundrum is contained therein, then the skill roll represents not whether the information can be found (because that's not in question), but whether it can be found in time.

In that situation, having a group of relatively clueless helpers could still make a difference. Even with no real understanding of the subject, they can scurry about, looking up titles in the inventory, finding the books on the shelves, putting them back, etc. These actions are all helping the main skill roller by taking away the need for him to perform drudging donkeywork. A bonus of +2 to +4 may be warranted.

But there's still an upper limit to how much help is going to make a difference. Having a twenty helpers piling books around you, faster than you can work, is not going to speed up the process. Having a hundred helpers is not going to warrant a +200 to your roll...you're not going to find what you're after in one-hundredth of the time, because there's a practical limit to how fast you can read.

There's a diminishing return on how much help an extra body can give you, if they don't know what they're looking for, and eventually, they would even hinder the search, 'helpfully' putting books back on the shelf before you've read them, causing distracting noise, having to be shown what to look for, ...eventually, the main researcher will be wasting so much time managing his helpers, that they prove to be a net negative impact on the job.


If the skill check is concerning finding information about in library, I agree aid an other helps.

If it's just knowing something or not knowing it, I don't think one should be able to use aid an other.
There's a reason the rules refer to the decision of the individual GM.

Anyway, don't let your players abuse aid another. It's a low dc, doesn't have a risk involved and can be made untrained. There are hardly any reason why someone wouldn't constantly use it.
I even think introducing a failure chance would be good. This encourages people to invest at least a limited number of points in the skills you want use aid an other for.
A character with 2 or 4 skills points per level can than make the decision to invest in different skills and focus on aid an other or invest a few skills and take the lead on those.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Aid Another wrote:

In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial...

.....
The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.

If it doesn't make sense for helping someone to be possible in the first place, then you're fully within the rules to disallow Aid Another altogether. I currently can't think of a reason to allow Aid Another on knowledge checks, though I'm open to suggestions.


I think it's fine to allow aid another on knowledge checks if you have that knowledge trained (or have bardic knowledge or such). It makes perfect sense to me.

An example would be trying to remember someone's name. You have a perfect mental image of them, can describe the way they walk, talk, and know who all their friends are but you just cannot remember their name. You start describing them and the person you are talking to (aiding you) says "Bob? I think I met that guy once a few years ago." They may not know anything else about him, but with your vivid description they fill in the little gap in your own knowledge.


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Jiggy wrote:
Aid Another wrote:

In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial...

.....
The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
If it doesn't make sense for helping someone to be possible in the first place, then you're fully within the rules to disallow Aid Another altogether. I currently can't think of a reason to allow Aid Another on knowledge checks, though I'm open to suggestions.

Ever watched 'House MD'? During their differentials Dr. House was making a Knowledge (medicine) check and his team was Aiding Another by throwing ideas at him, making the tests, finding new symptoms and giving him inspiration for brilliant deductions.


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Jiggy wrote:
I currently can't think of a reason to allow Aid Another on knowledge checks, though I'm open to suggestions.

Since the rules don't disallow it I think a better position in this instance is to ask what differentiates knowledge checks from other skill checks to not allow it as a general rule. I would expect that if it were never possible that would have been stated in the rules rather than left up to GM interpretation, in the same way skills are noted as trained only.

Quote:
The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.

This clause only allows the GM to modify the base rule (you can aid another, no restrictions specified) on a case-by-case basis. It does not allow the GM to amend the rules to blanket ban aid another on specific skills in general.

From a less rules lawyer angle, since the base aid another allows it, by not allowing it at all you are asserting that it would never be beneficial to help someone with that skill. If anyone has ever helped you remember something "on the tip of your tongue" they have aided you in that knowledge check.

There are even instances where aid another makes more sense than making the check directly, such as knowledge (nobility) when the character just arrives in a new country. You may not know the local nobility, customs, etc. but you can prod someone else along by asking basic questions on the topic to get their mental juices flowing.


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I did a lot of aid anothering on skill checks during college. Especially at Libraries. Worked out really well.


Dragnmoon wrote:

Since the question is related, decided to bring up an old thread.

So I have been convinced I was wrong above, so no reason to continue that, but I have a question dealing with Aid Another and Knowledge.

So I had a player last night that wanted to Aid Another with Knowledge (local) even though he did not have the Skill. His argument was that since the target for Aid Another was a 10 he could make the Aid Another check because Knowledge allows you to make untrained checks for targets of 10 or lower.

My Argument was that he can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that his character couldn’t achieve alone, which is words directly from the rule Aid Another. Since He can't normally do the check himself since the target was above 10, he can't Aid him.

What do you guys think?

Hah, I posted twice already in this thread and didn't address the question that you resurrected the thread for.

While my gut reaction is to not allow someone untrained to aid another on a trained only skill, reading through the rules I can find nothing concrete that would allow me to stop them. I would allow it. I could use the "The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well." clause, but since I would really be applying this all the time and not on a case-by-case basis I wouldn't feel justified in doing so. See my above arguments on that. I only GM in PFS OP, so I always try to follow RAW even if I don't like it. Grr.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.

yeah, the full text seems to be saying in cases that require a trained skill, like disable device, you can't aid another unless you actually have ranks in the skill, i.e. you're trained.

knowledge skills say

Quote:
Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10. If you have access to an extensive library that covers a specific skill, this limit is removed. The time to make checks using a library, however, increases to 1d4 hours. Particularly complete libraries might even grant a bonus on Knowledge checks in the fields that they cover.

to make a knowledge check dc 10, since anyone could make the roll, he wouldn't need to have to ranks to assist.

I've always thought you can't aid another in knowledge skills, but i guess that wasn't an actual rule written down anywhere. In combat though they can't easily aid another with the knowledge check since it changes from a free action, to a standard action to aid another.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Saying that someone can Aid Another in a Knowledge Skill Check with a DC above 10 when they don't have the skill seems to totally ignore the bolded below.

Core Book pg 86 wrote:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

For a Knowledge skill check for a DC above 10 you need to be trained in the skill, so to be able to get make the roll on your own you would need it trained, since Aid Another states you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone, you can't aid another without the Knowledge skilled trained.

Now if the Initial target is DC 10 or lower, then you can Aid Another if you are not trained in the Knowledge Skill.

Grand Lodge

Dragnmoon wrote:

Saying that someone can Aid Another in a Knowledge Skill Check with a DC above 10 when they don't have the skill seems to totally ignore the bolded below.

Core Book pg 86 wrote:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

For a Knowledge skill check for a DC above 10 you need to be trained in the skill, so to be able to get make the roll on your own you would need it trained, since Aid Another states you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone, you can't aid another without the Knowledge skilled trained.

Now if the Initial target is DC 10 or lower, then you can Aid Another if you are not trained in the Knowledge Skill.

But you can achieve a DC 10 on your own, which is the Aid Another DC, which is what you are trying to accomplish.

Aid Another on skills is more limited by space than ability. opening a lock not only requires a trained skill, but room enough for another person to be able to reach the lock.

IMO, Aid Another on knowledge skills can be done untrained, as long as you have a certain minimum Intelligence (your AC/familiar/mount ain't gonna be able to help)

Actually, where Aid Another could get sick would be a Halfling Bard with the Helpful feat (or something like that) which changes the bonus from Aid Another from +2 to +4...

Liberty's Edge

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kinevon wrote:
But you can achieve a DC 10 on your own, which is the Aid Another DC, which is what you are trying to accomplish.

No, That line means if your character couldn’t achieve the task alone (Not aided by others) you can't make the roll, you are looking at the wrong DC, the important DC for that line is the DC for the Knowledge Skill, not the Aid Other.

Example:

Bob: Trained in Knowledge (Local)
Bill: No Trained in Knowledge (Local)

Bob needs to make a Knowledge (Local) check DC 25 he asks for some aid

Bill cannot make Knowledge (Local) checks above DC 10 because he is not trained so he can't make the roll.

Since Bill Can't make the check he can't Aid because he can't achieve the task alone.


ImperatorK wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Aid Another wrote:

In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial...

.....
The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
If it doesn't make sense for helping someone to be possible in the first place, then you're fully within the rules to disallow Aid Another altogether. I currently can't think of a reason to allow Aid Another on knowledge checks, though I'm open to suggestions.
Ever watched 'House MD'? During their differentials Dr. House was making a Knowledge (medicine) check and his team was Aiding Another by throwing ideas at him, making the tests, finding new symptoms and giving him inspiration for brilliant deductions.

ihmo House and his team are doing profession (doctor) checks (or even just heal checks) and not knowledge (medicine checks). The untrained assistants gain a sliver pieces each day which seems enough as it's always House who saves the patient.

Furtheremore, even if you place the check on knowledge, it's closer to find the answer in a library (due to the long time it takes them to find the answer and the many wrong paths they follow) rather than a strait remembering knowledge check. Something for which I never argue you couldn't.

ihmo, House is a bad example to prove your point.


It's a perfect example. And the assistants aren't untrained, they're doctors like House, he's just smarter and in charge.
And it's quicker to scan the memory of a few very good doctors than search in a library.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I actually think the example given (Disable Device to open a lock) is a mistake. I checked against the d20 SRD, which doesn't include it.

My personal take on it is that the example was meant to be "Disable Device to disarm a magic trap", since that is a very clear use of a skill which limits who can perform the action (characters with the Trapfinding class feature) - which turns the rule into "if you are not allowed, by the skill, to attempt to make a particular check yourself, you may not attempt to Aid Another".

This clears up the Knowledge skill problem, since an untrained character is not allowed to make a DC 11+ check attempt themselves, and so could not Aid Another, and clarifies the usage overall.

My read of the RAI is that Aid Another is meant to represent "greater than the sum of the parts": Where each character individually may have no chance of success, by pooling together they might succeed at something. There are very few skill uses which you are not allowed to even try, just because your skill check is too low, or because you don't have the right abilities, and I believe that the intent behind AA is to prohibit Aid when your input cannot have any impact, but to otherwise allow it.

Now, as some people have said, RAW suggests that "if you can't achieve a success yourself, you may not Aid Another", and that's a valid interpretation, and may well be correct, but I cannot help but think that the intention is "if the helpers can be at all useful, then they can increase the chance of success".

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chemlak wrote:
I actually think the example given (Disable Device to open a lock) is a mistake. I checked against the d20 SRD, which doesn't include it.

This is Pathfinder, in Pathfinder you use Disable Device to open locks.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yes aiding another on a dc 20 knowledge check would require all aiding parties to be trained.

A dc 10 check shouldn't really need a roll, outside of combat they can take 10 anyway. But in the case of a dc 10 or lower check anyone can aid the knowledge check.

Asking someone to roll a dc 10 check out of combat is just a game slowdown.
If you can take ten, assume ten out of combat, and dc 10 checks become part of the narrative. It's something he Gm just has to decide to do or not. The pcs won't know the dc beforehand, and once they take ten on a knowledge check, that's all that pc knows. But it saves some rolling.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
I actually think the example given (Disable Device to open a lock) is a mistake. I checked against the d20 SRD, which doesn't include it.
This is Pathfinder, in Pathfinder you use Disable Device to open locks.

You misunderstand my point. The d20 SRD does not include an example of a skill in which Aid Another cannot be used - one was added in Pathfinder, in an attempt to clarify, but I think the example used was a mistake, and was meant to refer to DD being used to disarm magic traps.

Read it through. Change the example to "disarm magic traps" instead of "open locks" as you read it. Then the entire passage regarding "In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results" makes a lot more sense, is clearer, and is less open to interpretation.

Liberty's Edge

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chemlak wrote:
The d20 SRD does not include an example of a skill in which Aid Another cannot be used

What are you looking at? Both the latest print of the Core book and the PRD both use Open locks as an example, and that example fits fine in the sentence.

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