paizo.com Recent Posts in Aid Another in Skillspaizo.com Recent Posts in Aid Another in Skills2012-11-15T23:09:34Z2012-11-15T23:09:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsFuransisucohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#642017-04-14T21:52:16Z2017-04-14T21:52:16Z<p>In a Knowledge check i can't choose 20. isn't?</p>In a Knowledge check i can't choose 20. isn't?Furansisuco2017-04-14T21:52:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#632017-04-14T21:08:43Z2017-04-14T21:08:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dragnmoon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">wraithstrike wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Dragnmoon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">wraithstrike wrote:</div><blockquote> You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me. </blockquote>Well if you can't hit the Target number, you can't perform the skill on your own, can you? </blockquote>Not being able to perform the skill, and not being able to hit the target DC are not the same thing. </blockquote><p>But they have to be able to Achieve it, and if you can not get the target number, you can not achieve it.
<p>Edit: I am mostly playing Devils advocate here now, and just making a point that the poor wording they used can be interpreted my way. </blockquote><p>I realize this is old, but if this was how it worked aid another would have little value. The idea of aid another is to accomplish task that you otherwise couldn't do on your own. If you can succeed on the DC without someone to help you, chances are you could take 20 and simply do it.Dragnmoon wrote:wraithstrike wrote: Dragnmoon wrote: wraithstrike wrote: You don't have to be able to hit the target number, but you do have to be able to perform the skill on your own. The line you quoted fits that perfectly well to me.
Well if you can't hit the Target number, you can't perform the skill on your own, can you? Not being able to perform the skill, and not being able to hit the target DC are not the same thing. But they have to be able to Achieve it, and if you can not get the...Claxon2017-04-14T21:08:43ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsFuransisucohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#622017-04-14T19:20:26Z2017-04-14T19:20:26Z<p>Sorry for open this Discussion again, but i have a problem,
<br />
I look know if a PJ can Aid Another Action in a Knowledge Check.
<br />
Basically the question begin in Society for the inicial checks before start the mission. </p>
<p>I don't pretend start a new discussion, i need solve a question from my players. </p>
<p>i put here the question.
<br />
can Aid Another Action in a Knowledge Check?</p>
<p>If the answer is "yes". Can i use if i have range 0? (the CD is 10)</p>
<p>for what use Collective Recollection (Teamwork) ?</p>
<p>Thanks for helping me</p>Sorry for open this Discussion again, but i have a problem,
I look know if a PJ can Aid Another Action in a Knowledge Check.
Basically the question begin in Society for the inicial checks before start the mission.
I don't pretend start a new discussion, i need solve a question from my players.
i put here the question.
can Aid Another Action in a Knowledge Check?
If the answer is "yes". Can i use if i have range 0? (the CD is 10)
for what use Collective Recollection (Teamwork) ?
Thanks...Furansisuco2017-04-14T19:20:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsHaraldKlakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#612013-04-16T07:58:16Z2013-04-16T07:58:16Z<p>The feat is Cooperative Crafting.</p>
<p>Aid Another on a magic item crafting roll, is doable as any skill roll, as far as I know.
<br />
However, following the limitation that you need to be able to do the action yourself, having the relevant crafting feat is required.</p>The feat is Cooperative Crafting.
Aid Another on a magic item crafting roll, is doable as any skill roll, as far as I know.
However, following the limitation that you need to be able to do the action yourself, having the relevant crafting feat is required.HaraldKlak2013-04-16T07:58:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in Skillsconcerned-citizenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#602013-04-16T07:19:49Z2013-04-16T07:19:49Z<p>What about magic item creation and the Aid Another action?
<br />
I know there is a feat (I forget the name of it) that grants a +2 automatically and also increases the amount of progress in a day, but that is more than the Aid Another action does.
<br />
Does anybody have any insight into this?</p>
<p>As always, thank you for letting me speak my mind.</p>What about magic item creation and the Aid Another action?
I know there is a feat (I forget the name of it) that grants a +2 automatically and also increases the amount of progress in a day, but that is more than the Aid Another action does.
Does anybody have any insight into this?
As always, thank you for letting me speak my mind.concerned-citizen2013-04-16T07:19:49ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsSlimGaugehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#592016-07-18T03:32:28Z2012-07-05T17:47:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote><p>I don't see it as a question of 'trained vs untrained', but 'Why is aiding always DC 10?'.</p>
<p>Aid making horseshoe? DC 10
<br />
Aid making Faberge egg? DC 10</p>
<p>Aid making steel skullcap? DC 10
<br />
Aid making mithral octopus barding? DC 10
<br />
o_0? </blockquote><p>Because the majority of the contribution to the outcome is determined by the primary skill user, not the aider.
<p>Making a horseshoe/Faberge Egg ? Assistant, please heat the forge to precisely <some temperature> and hold it there while I manipulate the metals we'll be using (relieving the primary craftsman from having to keep an eye on the temperature whilst doing whatever else.)</p>
<p>Or a surgeon. The surgical assistant needn't know the difference between rocket surgery and brain science to respond correctly to "Clamp. Swab. Suction. Retraction. #4 Schwartz needle with #2 silk." etc.</p>
<p>Edit: Missing parenthesis</p>Snorter wrote:I don't see it as a question of 'trained vs untrained', but 'Why is aiding always DC 10?'.
Aid making horseshoe? DC 10
Aid making Faberge egg? DC 10
Aid making steel skullcap? DC 10
Aid making mithral octopus barding? DC 10
o_0?
Because the majority of the contribution to the outcome is determined by the primary skill user, not the aider. Making a horseshoe/Faberge Egg ? Assistant, please heat the forge to precisely and hold it there while I manipulate the metals we'll be...SlimGauge2012-07-05T17:47:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsGrickhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#582012-07-05T16:42:42Z2012-07-05T16:42:42Z<p>Since we're all interested in Aid Another, there's an old thread <a href="http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4rn9?Aid-Another-who-is-affected-by-a-spell" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a> asking about how to aid someone who is affected by a spell. The discussion didn't really resolve anything, but people could still add FAQ requests if they like.</p>Since we're all interested in Aid Another, there's an old thread here asking about how to aid someone who is affected by a spell. The discussion didn't really resolve anything, but people could still add FAQ requests if they like.Grick2012-07-05T16:42:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsSnorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#572012-07-05T16:37:44Z2012-07-05T16:37:44Z<p>It turns out my previous example with the library was valid, and didn't need to be a houserule, due to the specific instructions that use of such a resource removes the restriction on the max Knowledge DC achievable with no ranks.</p>
<p>However, it doesn't resolve the larger problem of players being able to benefit from a potentially infinite number of Aid bonuses, from assistants who barely know their arse from their elbow.</p>
<p>Restricting Aid Another on trained-only skills is only a part-solution, and a temporary one at best; it delays the issue for a few levels, and limits it to PCs and a few NPCs (at the GMs discretion).</p>
<p>I will freely admit, I am the kind of player who has traditionally played jacks-of-all-trades in most RPGs, if I can. I don't need to be the best at everything, but I <i>hate</i> being prevented from even attempting a skill. Back in 3.5, I would take advantage of the 4xskill ranks at 1st level, to stick one in every trained-only skill, <i>just</i> so I could claim to do it, and provide aid to others. I have a similar habit in PF, though without the quadrupled level 1 skills, I spread it over several levels.</p>
<p>I enjoy when my +5 Disable Device can help the dedicated Rogue beat a DC 25 trap, or when I can help the party face with a stubborn social encounter. But even I, as a self-confessed skill-junkie synergy-spammer would consider some Aid attempts unbelievable. Where the assistant is so out of their depth, that they ought to be more of a hindrance than a help.</p>
<p>I don't see it as a question of 'trained vs untrained', but 'Why is aiding always DC 10?'.</p>
<p>Aid making horseshoe? DC 10
<br />
Aid making Faberge egg? DC 10</p>
<p>Aid making steel skullcap? DC 10
<br />
Aid making mithral octopus barding? DC 10</p>
<p>o_0?</p>It turns out my previous example with the library was valid, and didn't need to be a houserule, due to the specific instructions that use of such a resource removes the restriction on the max Knowledge DC achievable with no ranks.
However, it doesn't resolve the larger problem of players being able to benefit from a potentially infinite number of Aid bonuses, from assistants who barely know their arse from their elbow.
Restricting Aid Another on trained-only skills is only a part-solution,...Snorter2012-07-05T16:37:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsTalonhawkehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#562012-07-02T00:47:05Z2012-07-02T00:47:05Z<p>I would allow aid another on scaling knowledge checks if the base DC were 10 maybe something the barbarian just happened to bring up with his minor knowledge would spur the wizard to remeber somthing greater.</p>
<p>But like I said only if the lowest DC were 10 or lower.</p>I would allow aid another on scaling knowledge checks if the base DC were 10 maybe something the barbarian just happened to bring up with his minor knowledge would spur the wizard to remeber somthing greater.
But like I said only if the lowest DC were 10 or lower.Talonhawke2012-07-02T00:47:05ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsMike Lindnerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#552012-07-01T19:59:04Z2012-07-01T19:59:04Z<p>Well you've convinced me. No aid another on knowledge checks for non-trained characters.</p>Well you've convinced me. No aid another on knowledge checks for non-trained characters.Mike Lindner2012-07-01T19:59:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsChemlakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#542012-07-01T18:31:44Z2012-07-01T18:31:44Z<p>You believe there is no merit in examining the difference between the source material and the revised version, to see if a clarification drastically changes the interpretation?</p>
<p>My point is that the PRD added a sentence to the original version of the rule, and that addition is the cause of this entire thread. Without it, people would just be saying "does the skill I'm trying to aid restrict me from making the check?" With it, we get arguments about being able to Aid if you can't achieve a successful skill check yourself.</p>You believe there is no merit in examining the difference between the source material and the revised version, to see if a clarification drastically changes the interpretation?
My point is that the PRD added a sentence to the original version of the rule, and that addition is the cause of this entire thread. Without it, people would just be saying "does the skill I'm trying to aid restrict me from making the check?" With it, we get arguments about being able to Aid if you can't achieve a...Chemlak2012-07-01T18:31:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsDazzhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#532012-07-02T00:18:56Z2012-07-01T18:26:04Z<p>As my interpretation of this, aid another shouldn't be allowed for knowledge checks that don't involve a library or other long-term research.</p>
<p>My reasoning: for the previous issue of "should they be able to make the DC on their own to aid another" they don't have to because, in the right circumstances they are physically capable of achieving it (say, masterwork tools, a team of helpers, competence and morale bonuses, etc) even if they need a bonus of +50 in order to achieve it.</p>
<p>However, on checks that require training to use that they are not trained in, they simply lack the skills required to even have that tiny chance. In identifying a type of demon and their traits/weaknesses with knowledge (planes) for example, someone who honestly doesn't know anything about demons other than "they're evil" has absolutely no way they could help in that situation. In a library, as stated before, they could help by retrieving books and looking at chapter names and such.</p>
<p>Going back to the example of House and the other doctors assisting him: the other doctors can assist in a diagnosis because they are doctors and have this kind of knowledge. Were they to grab a bum off the street whose medical knowledge was no more than "booze makes the pain go away," (an extreme example I know, but still relevant) his suggestions would be unhelpful and distracting.</p>
<p>While some players will always argue to get the most bonuses to their rolls (and without something directly in the rulebook some of these will never accept it), if it makes sense, let it fly, if not, let the game move on so you can keep having fun.</p>As my interpretation of this, aid another shouldn't be allowed for knowledge checks that don't involve a library or other long-term research.
My reasoning: for the previous issue of "should they be able to make the DC on their own to aid another" they don't have to because, in the right circumstances they are physically capable of achieving it (say, masterwork tools, a team of helpers, competence and morale bonuses, etc) even if they need a bonus of +50 in order to achieve it.
However, on...Dazz2012-07-01T18:26:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsDragnmoonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#522012-07-01T18:15:28Z2012-07-01T18:15:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chemlak wrote:</div><blockquote> <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#aidAnother" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Since when did I mention PRD?</a> </blockquote><p>Since when are we talking about 3.5?
<p>Edit: Because of the differences in skills in Pathfinder, bringing up 3.5 as a reference is useless.</p>Chemlak wrote:Since when did I mention PRD?
Since when are we talking about 3.5? Edit: Because of the differences in skills in Pathfinder, bringing up 3.5 as a reference is useless.Dragnmoon2012-07-01T18:15:28ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Aid Another in SkillsChemlakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lqim&page=2?Aid-Another-in-Skills#512012-07-01T18:13:26Z2012-07-01T18:13:26Z<p><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#aidAnother" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Since when did I mention PRD?</a></p>
<p>And if the example fits fine, why is this discussion even taking place? Where under Open Locks does it restrict who can achieve certain results? The Open Locks use of Disable Device does not say "characters without X cannot open locks". The skill rules do. But Aid Another refers to the skill itself placing the restriction on who can get certain results. The skill rules say that if a character cannot succeed even with a roll of 20, they can't ever succeed, but Aid Another doesn't talk about the skill rules. It talks about the skill itself restricting success to certain characters.</p>
<p>Where, in this sentence:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD wrote:</div><blockquote>Open Locks : The DC for opening a lock depends on its quality. If you do not have a set of thieves' tools, these DCs increase by 10.</blockquote><p>does
<div class="messageboard-quotee">PRD wrote:</div><blockquote>...the skill restricts who can achieve certain results ...</blockquote><p>apply?
<p>Another edit: On the other hand, if you change the example to "disarm magic traps", then I can find the restriction in the Disable Device skill VERY easily:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Restriction : Characters with the trapfinding ability (like rogues) can disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.</blockquote><p>Since when did I mention PRD?
And if the example fits fine, why is this discussion even taking place? Where under Open Locks does it restrict who can achieve certain results? The Open Locks use of Disable Device does not say "characters without X cannot open locks". The skill rules do. But Aid Another refers to the skill itself placing the restriction on who can get certain results. The skill rules say that if a character cannot succeed even with a roll of 20, they can't ever succeed, but...Chemlak2012-07-01T18:13:26Z