The Padishah Empire


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The Padishah Empire
(Beyond Qadira, in Canon):

I’m collecting info on only the Casmaron portion of the empire because Qadira is fairly well detailed already (in Qadira: Gateway to the East).
I'll try to update this as I go along, but here's what I have so far. I am compiling lists of RPG, art, fiction, and other resources for Persia/Central Asia as well.

Kelesh (Keles) is a Turkish word meaning variously: ‘conceited,’ ‘brave,’ ‘idiotic,’ ‘a brat,’ ‘handsome,’ ‘ugly,’ and ‘puppy,’ according to context. (!)

Geography
Described in the Gazetteer (p.10) as a place of ‘eroded civilizations’ and cities, of deserts, ‘fantastic climes,’ and many ruins.
Castrovin Sea: A large round inland sea, bordered by Iobaria to the north, Ninshabur, Kaskkari, and Iblydos on the west, and Kelesh to the south. Kandalay lies to its east. (CS, p.153)
Diamond Sultanates: A region of Casmaron, of which Kelish, the territory of the Padishah Emperor, is the greatest. (Gazetteer, p.16) These, lying in ‘interior Casmaron’ are ‘vast’ and huge, and almost all are ruled by Keleshites. (CS, p.24) There are still military campaigns waged in the heart of Kelesh (Qadira, p.10).
Everlight Oasis (called by its inhabinants Ourzid-Mah): a site sacred to Sarenrae in the satrapy of Zelshabbar (CS, p.153)
Golden Path, The: A trade route leading from Katheer to Vudra (CS, p.152)
Gormuz, The Pit of: Lies to the west of Vudra (Gazetteer, p.17); once a great city of Ninshabur, but now the prison of Rovagug (CS, p.153); 20 miles across. (Impossible Eye, p.63).
Iblydos: A realm on the western coast of the Castrovin Sea. (CS, p.153) Iblydos is one of the oldest human nations, with records of the ancient cyclops empire of Koloran (Varnhold Vanishing, p.55).
Kardaji Bay: The body of water lying at the heart of the Kelesh Empire, an inlet of the Obari Ocean. (CS, p.153)
Kaskkari: Situated on the western shores of the Castrovin Sea (CS, p.153)
Ninshabur: West of the Castrovin Sea; homeland of the Namzaruum sect, which worships a demigod believed to be destined to return and free the Windswept Wastes. Site of the Pit of Gormuz. (CS, p.153) Southwest of the Castrovin Sea, Ninshabur is one of the ‘originlands.’ It lies upon a river system, and once was the center of an empire that reached the Inner Sea. Ninshabur was destroyed by the Tarrasque. This region lies near the Pit of Gormuz; it includes many ruined fortresses and cities, including Tabsagal, the treasury of its kings, and Ezida, reclaimed by the caliph of the Namzaruumites. (CS, p.154) Ninshabur proper, the main city, was the site of the Pit of Gormuz, punished for its support of Rovagug. (House of the Beast, p.62, Into the Darklands, p.6)
Qadira: Westernmost satrapy of Kelesh. Half a dozen other satraps lie between Qadira and the imperial heartland (CS, p.153)
Windswept Wastes: The ‘central deserts’ and ‘western steppes’ of Kelesh, home of nomads. Probably borders Ninshabur. (CS, p.153)
Whistling Plains: a wide, sparsely populated plain stretching from the Taldan border and the World’s Edge Mountains ‘deep into the heart of the Padishah Empire.’ (Taldor, p.9).
Yenchabur: A city of interior Casmaron destroyed 300 years ago; its people fled to the River Kingdoms in Avistan, led by the assassin king Afanasy Athanastus (GtRK, p.13).
Zelshabbar: Border satrapy that includes the Everlight Oasis (CS, p.153)

Government
Padishah Emperor: Ruler of Kelesh. The title of Padishah is also claimed by the ruler of the Marids (GB, p.21) The current emperor is Kelish XXII, who, despite being eighty years old, is still strong and virile. He has many children by his many wives (fifty in number in 4709), adding one to his harem each year of his reign (suggesting he has reigned since about 4649). (Qadira, p.4) He has over 200 children residing in Katheer alone. (Qadira, p.5) Kelesh wizards are employed by the emperor in enforcing the bondage of genies for the empire. (Qadira, p.15)
Satraps and Satrapies: Xerbystes II is the Satrap of Qadira (CS, p.120). Qadira is not the largest satrapy (CS, p.121)

History and Mythology
Djinn and Blue Dragons are named as early influences on the civilization of the Keleshites. (CS, p.25)
Before the Age of Darkness and the creation of the Pit of Gormuz, cyclopes ruled northern and central Casmaron (Varnhold Vanishing, p.55)
-3923 The abomination called the Ulunat, a spawn of Rovagug, is described in texts preserved at Tabsagal. (The Final Wish, p.50)
-43 Qadira is absorbed into the rising Padishah Empire; Cerush is its first Satrap (Qadira, p.3)
1532 Okeno and Osirion are conquered by the Satrapy of Qadira (Qadira, p.4)
2253 Overthrow of the Kelesh satrap of Osirion by the Cult of the Dawnflower. An independent Keleshite sultanate is founded. (Gazetteer, p.20)
2920 A great earthquake strikes both Qadira and Taldor. The Satrap Gheber II is refused permission by the Padishah Emperor to attack Taldor. (Qadira, p.4)
4067 Civil war breaks out in Kelesh after the death of the emperor and many princelings head inland from Qadira to compete for the throne (Qadira, p.4)
4079 The Satrap of Qadira launches an invasion of Taldor (Qadira, p.4)
4609 The Kelesh Sultan of Osirion is overthrown and a native dynasty rises to power in Osirion. (Gazetteer, p.21)
Abadar: Worshipped in a ‘corrupted, scheming form’ in Keleshite lands (CS, p.25).
Birth of Light and Truth, The: the holy text of Sarenrae. (GtA, p.16)
Irori: Like the church of Abadar, the Keleshite form of this religion is corrupt (CS, p.25).
Namzaruum: Culture hero of the Windswept Wastes, whose return is guarded against by the agents of the Padishah Emperor (CS, p.153).
Rovagug: Worshipped by mad Keleshites and those who respect entropy and destruction. (CS, p.25)
Sarenrae: see Gods and Magic, p.34-5. Her form is dark, harsh, and dangerous, in Keleshite lands. (CS, p.25)

Culture and Language
Badawi: A tribe of Kelesh nomads who migrated to Garund (and Katapesh) when Osirion was a satrapy. (LoFPG, p.20-1)
Casmar: an ethnicity mentioned along with Keleshite and Iobarian as a major race of Casmaron. (Varnhold Vanishing, p.56)
Damaq, House: A Keleshite noble house of Absalom, led by Scion Lord Kerkis, Lord Exchequer of the Absalom Mint. (GtA, p.7)
Daivrat: ‘Brothers of Genies’ – magicians who use friendship to gain the aid of genies rather than binding magic. (Qadira, p.20)
Faqirs (presumably): Mentioned in City of Strangers, p.24 as mystic who balance on the point of spears, from Kelesh.
Genie-blood: Descent from Genies seems to be particularly notable in Kelesh lands. Half-jinns and Sul are described in Qadira, and Genie-blood is a trait available in the Legacy of Fire Player’s Guide (p.8). Suli-jann serve as the Emperor’s agents (Qadira, p.29)
Keleshite numerals: Used by Taldane (Common) for its numbers (CS, p.220)
Matrilineal Inheritance: Practiced by Keleshites (CS, p.25)
Shamiyyid, House: Another noble house of Absalom, ruled by Scion Lady Xerashir, Bey of Sarenrae, Watcher of the Starstone. (GtA, p.7)
Taldane: The Common tongue of Avistan is related to Kelesh (CS, p.31).
Zulorket = ‘Dark Death’ in Keleshite (Dark Markets, p.5, CS, p.87)
Zraka: A greeting room where any stranger may receive hospitality in a Qadira (and Kelesh?) house. (Qadira, p.15)

Creatures
Bulettes: Dungeon Denizens Revisited, p.8
Emkrahs: Kelish: ‘wrongful birth.’ House of the Beast, p.80-1
Mishtus: Mentioned as guardians of Tabsagal in Ninshabur (CS, p.154).
Purple Worms: Arrived in a Casmaroni crater from the Dark Tapestry, and faced by heroes such as Namzaruum. Dungeon Denizens Revisited, p.44.


Nice work, thank you :) This alone is helpful :)


Bookmark. =)


Nice work Jeff.


Not Hank Woon wrote:
Nice work Jeff.

Please feel free to use the Wiki article on the Empire. Also Feel free to update this page with the above information


Some resources (not exhaustive, -- add if you know of more):

d20
Al-Qadim (all of it…, particularly Huzuz (pseudo-Baghdad), and the Cities of the Pantheon (Iran)). Zakhara is the name of an ancient, pre-Achaemenid kingdom in Iran.
Ancient Kingdoms: Mesoptamia (combines pulp with history)
Endless Sands: Arabian Adventures (Avalanche Press)
The Golden Palace of Zahadran (Dungeon Crawl Classics #32)
The Sunken Ziggurat (Dungeon Crawl Classics #23)
Tales of the Caliphate Nights (True20)
Testament (Green Ronin)
“Heroes of the Persian War,” Dragon #279
“The Persian Mythos” Dragon #12
“Mesopotamian Mythos” and “Demonomicon: Pazazu” in Dragon #329
Targum #3
“The Mud Sorcerer’s Tomb” (Dungeon 138)
Day of Al Akbar
Emirates of Ylaruam (Mystara)
Cities of the Sun (Birthright)
A Magical Society: Silk Road (Expeditious Retreat)

Other:
Arabian Nights (GURPS) (more historical than mythic, however)
Blood and Sand (Ars Magica)
Castle Falkenstein: Ottoman Empire (both original rules and GURPS)
Crescent Empire (7th Sea)
Persia (Zenobia RPG)
Veil of Night (oWoD)
Yazata: The Persian Gods (Scion)
“Nestarian Cult of Cthugha” in The Keeper’s Companion (CoC)

Boardgames:
Tales of the Arabian Nights (Avalon Hill) (very fun)

Fiction
Dune, Frank Herbert
Haroun and the Sea of Stories, Salman Rushdie
Shahnameh or the Book of Kings by Firdousi
The 1001 Nights or Arabian Nights
Kalilah and Demneh
The Conference of the Birds
Pretty much anything by Idries Shah, particularly the stories of Nasruddin
The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
Rumi’s poetry

Nonfiction:
Herodotus
Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War by Kaveh Farroukh (Osprey)

Links:
Al-Dakan (homebrew OGL setting)
Ylaraum (Vaults of Pandius)
Excellent map of Zakhara

Art:
Ali-Baba (Maxfield Parrish)


Wiki Ad wrote:
Not Hank Woon wrote:
Nice work Jeff.
Please feel free to use the Wiki article on the Empire. Also Feel free to update this page with the above information

Thanks- I will if I get the chance. If anyone wants to beat me to the punch, feel free (I am going to busy for the next few days).


Jeff de luna wrote:

Some resources (not exhaustive, -- add if you know of more):

d20
Al-Qadim (all of it…, particularly Huzuz (pseudo-Baghdad), and the Cities of the Pantheon (Iran)). Zakhara is the name of an ancient, pre-Achaemenid kingdom in Iran.

I was completely unaware there was a d20 version. I thought that was exclusively 2ed?


D&D 2nd edition Desserts of Dessolation series (more Egyptian),
the Koran, the Talmud, old and new Testaments, old Testament/Pentatuch, the Torah, the Upanishads.


Urizen wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:

Some resources (not exhaustive, -- add if you know of more):

d20
Al-Qadim (all of it…, particularly Huzuz (pseudo-Baghdad), and the Cities of the Pantheon (Iran)). Zakhara is the name of an ancient, pre-Achaemenid kingdom in Iran.

I was completely unaware there was a d20 version. I thought that was exclusively 2ed?

Officially, yes, but much (perhaps all of the crunch) of it has been ported online (I used d20 kind of loosely, as you can see by my listing of Ylaruam). Several kits were made usuable with 3.0/3.5 in Dragon mag: 315 and 321.


Shizvestus wrote:

D&D 2nd edition Desserts of Dessolation series (more Egyptian),

the Koran, the Talmud, old and new Testaments, old Testament/Pentatuch, the Torah, the Upanishads.

Of course, the Avestas and the Gathas too. Thanx


Add to Fiction:

Invisible Cities, by Italo Calvino -- this book has always informed my notion of Central Asia and - the Dreamlands.

Vathek, by William Beckford, as well, a major influence on Lovecraft.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As a long time Al-Qadim fan, this one I would love to help out on.


To nonfiction:

Freya Stark: The Valleys of the Assassins


Justin Franklin wrote:
As a long time Al-Qadim fan, this one I would love to help out on.

Come on board!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff de luna wrote:
Urizen wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:

Some resources (not exhaustive, -- add if you know of more):

d20
Al-Qadim (all of it…, particularly Huzuz (pseudo-Baghdad), and the Cities of the Pantheon (Iran)). Zakhara is the name of an ancient, pre-Achaemenid kingdom in Iran.

I was completely unaware there was a d20 version. I thought that was exclusively 2ed?

Officially, yes, but much (perhaps all of the crunch) of it has been ported online (I used d20 kind of loosely, as you can see by my listing of Ylaruam). Several kits were made usuable with 3.0/3.5 in Dragon mag: 315 and 321.

I would think most of the old kits would work really well as archetypes now. The Sha'ir would be the one obvious exception, but since for official releases that wouldn't be usable anyway, I should probably go back to the historical idea.


Justin Franklin wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:
Urizen wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:

Some resources (not exhaustive, -- add if you know of more):

d20
Al-Qadim (all of it…, particularly Huzuz (pseudo-Baghdad), and the Cities of the Pantheon (Iran)). Zakhara is the name of an ancient, pre-Achaemenid kingdom in Iran.

I was completely unaware there was a d20 version. I thought that was exclusively 2ed?

Officially, yes, but much (perhaps all of the crunch) of it has been ported online (I used d20 kind of loosely, as you can see by my listing of Ylaruam). Several kits were made usuable with 3.0/3.5 in Dragon mag: 315 and 321.

I would think most of the old kits would work really well as archetypes now. The Sha'ir would be the one obvious exception, but since for official releases that wouldn't be usable anyway, I should probably go back to the historical idea.

The Shi'ar of Al-Qadim are practitioners of Sihr, which is what was historically defined as magic through the command of spirits. This suggests that the concept could be revisited (though not the mechanics of it) as a Summoner archetype. The Daivrat in the Qadira book resemble the Shi'ar, but I'm leaning toward the Summoner route since it means you can make a Shi'ar from 1st level.

Silver Crusade

Awesome.

About Sarenrae worship in the empire:

It kind of struck me that the empire was riding the tiger so to speak with Sarenrae as a/the primary deity of the land. She's certainly shaped their culture passively(the matriarchy in some areas) and actively(the church being responsible for marking freed slaves in Qadira), but the Dawncult sure was quick to turn on the land of its birth while in Osirion. Kind of have to wonder how much of a stabilizing/destabilizing element they are within the empire.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok I have started looking at the 2nd edition kits and examining their historical context.

Fighter Kits
Askar is just the word for soldier and I would see as just a straight fighter.

Corsair is a french word which doesn't seem appropriate, although the idea of swashbuckler/pirate archetype is very appealing. (possibly the free hand fighter archetype or something similar)

Desert Rider, Faris, and Mamluk all seem to be based off of aspects of the historical Mamluk and furusiyya. I was thinking maybe lose the heavy armor feat.

Wizard Kits
Basically the only thing we would need to work on here would be the Shi'ar. Witch I was thinking might be an interesting Summoner subclass instead of Archetype.

On to Rogues and Clerics.


The Al-Qadim kits are a good start, though they don't address Persian and Turkish themes as well as Arabic.

BTW, Testament is completely OGL and has a Magus of the Starry Host class (along with much appropriate other crunch). The Majus/Maga is the closest thing to a Wizard in Middle Eastern legend.

I'd make the Faqir (Sufi beggar/entertainer/holy man) a Bard archetype or subclass with a modified spell list.

I think you're right about a Summoner subclass for Shi'ar. The Ars Magica book "Blood and Sand" is chock full of good stuff, including a detailed (and fairly historical) version of the Shi'ar (there called the Sahir). When I get a chance today I'll summarize the details, as well as any other archetypes derivable from that book.


Mikaze wrote:

Awesome.

About Sarenrae worship in the empire:

It kind of struck me that the empire was riding the tiger so to speak with Sarenrae as a/the primary deity of the land. She's certainly shaped their culture passively(the matriarchy in some areas) and actively(the church being responsible for marking freed slaves in Qadira), but the Dawncult sure was quick to turn on the land of its birth while in Osirion. Kind of have to wonder how much of a stabilizing/destabilizing element they are within the empire.

Well, the Padishah Emperor is certainly not lawful good. The Qadira and CS books suggest the main gods are Abadar, Irori and Rovagug apart from her.

If Jinn-binding is part of Imperial court culture, then the central authority has a miraculous and non-divine means of asserting an alternate source of legitimacy. In fact, that might be why it is so common, since it doesn't depend on being a good guy.
The Persian emperors had a divine aura or nimbus that they gained on their enthronement. Perhaps there is an alternative imperial cult? The church of Sarenrae could be like Islam in secular states in the ME- a source of dissent and influence.
I've always thought of the Padishah as being like the Ottoman, Qajar, or Mughal rulers, with ruthlessness being a part of the succession. Except the wives and concubines are even more involved.
If Sarenrae is an ascended celestial, who was her master originally? What other native gods are in Kelesh that didn't get imported into Avistan because they were less important by -47 AR?


Thanks for compiling all the information. I had the hardest time researching my Qadiri Cleric of Sarenrae before play. Backstory changed at least three times as I found more information on Qadira. Originally she was supposed to be one of the 300 concubines Xerbyestes II is supposed to send to Casmaron every year, and she happened to escape, but I revised and made her a "daughter" of one of the Peerless instead. Granted her access to the palace, education and training and even a reason why she could have escaped Katheer in the first place.

Important to note, I think, anyway, the Venicaan Medical College in Katheer. Is renown in Golarian and just about anyone can and do train there, including Taldans, IIRC. It's my cleric's long term goal to recruit competent professors from there to teach at the academy she founded in her little patch of domesticated earth in the Stolen Lands in our Kingmaker campaign.

Also, there's a spire monument to Sarenrae there that if you make a pilgramage there you can gain +1 to your healing spells for the year, I think.

As for Sarenrae's religion and politics... that can of worms. I honestly don't understand how a former angel who demands honesty and promotes redemption can be the patron deity of an oppressive government that makes war with neighboring kingdoms for profit, or in case of the Satrap because he's bored or just plain stupid. My cleric is a crazy hippy because of it, opposing most every plan her party has towards militarization fearing that her new home will end up like her old one in the long run. And she literally has no where else to go, now.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just to see if we are thinking the same. I am looking at the Casmaron countries and see Ninshabur as an ancient Babylon, Iblydos seems to be ancient Greece.


Justin Franklin wrote:
Just to see if we are thinking the same. I am looking at the Casmaron countries and see Ninshabur as an ancient Babylon, Iblydos seems to be ancient Greece.

I think so... I'm certain re Ninshabur, but not 100% on Iblydos, which has very little on it yet. Of course, we may be adding a bunch to this thread when the new Inner Sea Guide is out.

There are a lot of Hellenistic cultures out there in RW history, ranging from Western Europe to India, so it could be one of those-- an amalgam of Greece with something else. The location is an equivalent to northern Persia/Pontus/Turkey/the Caucausus if we take the Castrovin as a Black and Caspian Seas analogue. Not that that does more than suggest things.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff de luna wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
Just to see if we are thinking the same. I am looking at the Casmaron countries and see Ninshabur as an ancient Babylon, Iblydos seems to be ancient Greece.

I think so... I'm certain re Ninshabur, but not 100% on Iblydos, which has very little on it yet. Of course, we may be adding a bunch to this thread when the new Inner Sea Guide is out.

There are a lot of Hellenistic cultures out there in RW history, ranging from Western Europe to India, so it could be one of those-- an amalgam of Greece with something else. The location is an equivalent to northern Persia/Pontus/Turkey/the Caucausus if we take the Castrovin as a Black and Caspian Seas analogue. Not that that does more than suggest things.

I think someone from Paizo mentioned (James or Erik I think) Iblydos as an analog of Ancient Greece.


Found it! Here's Mr. Jacob's post.

So yes, it's Greece. But how it remains so may be interesting. Perhaps Iblydos is a very isolated country.

There's where the Obari Ocean ref came from (I noted that location as being off in the Map of Golarion thread). Apparently the location of Iblydos was changed with The Varnhold Vanishing.

Silver Crusade

Jeff de luna wrote:

If Sarenrae is an ascended celestial, who was her master originally?

I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I think her god/mentor/patron/I'm-really-not-quite-sure was Ihys, Asmodeus' brother. CG, god of free will and creation. When Asmodeus murdered his brother, Sarenrae inherited Ihys' role as the protector of free will.

Here's the interesting thing(if TVTrope's character sheet is accurate): He seemed to be an analogue of Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrianism fame!

Not absolutely certain on that though. I need to dig out Book of the Damned 1 to fact check.

Hu5tru, that actually has me wondering if that's why the Dawncult turned on Kelesh. As soon as Sarenraists get out from under the thumb of the empire, they tend to stretch their legs and put their beliefs to aggressive practice, perhaps?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I was thinking about this, this morning and we have approximately 40 countries in the Inner Sea, and I believe Paizo said there would be about 30 in Tian Xia. In Casmaron so far we have what 5-10. So maybe we should pick a general theme for the Padishah Empire (persia, turkey, etc) and then we can use one of the other ones for other countries. It would really help to see what the Beyond the Inner Sea update from the new campaign setting looked like.

Sovereign Court

Justin Franklin wrote:


Corsair is a french word which doesn't seem appropriate, although the idea of swashbuckler/pirate archetype is very appealing. (possibly the free hand fighter archetype or something similar)

Aah ! Some Al-Qadim discussion !

Possibly the best campaign I ever mastered ! if only ...

Corsair may not be the best word (I would not know), but there is definitely room for some swashbuckling. While I have not read it, I believe Sinbad the Sailor would be a good start.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stereofm wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:


Corsair is a french word which doesn't seem appropriate, although the idea of swashbuckler/pirate archetype is very appealing. (possibly the free hand fighter archetype or something similar)

Aah ! Some Al-Qadim discussion !

Possibly the best campaign I ever mastered ! if only ...

Corsair may not be the best word (I would not know), but there is definitely room for some swashbuckling. While I have not read it, I believe Sinbad the Sailor would be a good start.

Oh definitely need to keep the idea, but I think we should come up with a better name.

Sovereign Court

Hu5tru wrote:


As for Sarenrae's religion and politics... that can of worms. I honestly don't understand how a former angel who demands honesty and promotes redemption can be the patron deity of an oppressive government that makes war with neighboring kingdoms for profit, or in case of the Satrap because he's bored or just plain stupid. My cleric is a crazy hippy because of it, opposing most every plan her party has towards militarization fearing that her new home will end up like her old one in the long run. And she literally has no where else to go, now.

We had that discussion with one of my players who is playing a bombshell cleric of Sarenrae. Basically, his version was that several sects with varying degrees of strictness would likely exist, since the religion was so widespread that no authority could strictly encompass it all over the Kelesh empire and beyond.

He chose to come from one of the most secretive/close minded sect, and being mandated to go to Varisia, "loosen up" over time. Especially now that she is far from the prying eyes of these elderly fanatical priests.

It could fit with the Al-qadim book clerics who had to choose between three variants : "pragmatical' "ethoist" and "moralist", and also I remember something in "Gods and Magic" about the many faces of the sun goddess, that is her kindness, and also the searing light that burns you or something like this.

Thanks for the discussion anyways.

Dark Archive

Shadam the 4th wonders...why do they want the duke's son killed?


Great thread, thanks to the creator for gathering all the information on Kelesh!

But two things:

Quote:

Kalilah and Demneh

Nonfiction:
Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War by Kaveh Farroukh (Osprey)

I thought that the Kalila-wa-Dimna was of Indian origin? And while I own and love Farrokh's book, I would like to add Ammianus Marcellinus' history (I forget the title) which covers both Sassanid Persia and its wars with the later Roman Empire.


Eric Hinkle wrote:

Great thread, thanks to the creator for gathering all the information on Kelesh!

But two things:

Quote:

Kalilah and Demneh

Nonfiction:
Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War by Kaveh Farroukh (Osprey)

I thought that the Kalila-wa-Dimna was of Indian origin? And while I own and love Farrokh's book, I would like to add Ammianus Marcellinus' history (I forget the title) which covers both Sassanid Persia and its wars with the later Roman Empire.

That's true-- I should have listed it in the Vudra thread. It came to Europe via Iran (like Chess) so there is a Persian version around that was more important for the development of the stories in the West. This is an important example of how Kelesh and Vudra are intermingled, however...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

New map of Casmaron

I've redrawn this map from the recent blog post to show how I see the continent working. Hopefully this is kosher.

I had to throw in some Himalayan-sized mountains on the Vudran isthmus to keep the monsoons working (they need to bounce against something, and Vudra without monsoons, and thus without jungles and huge river systems is not very Indianish). Note that the wet, lush part of Vudra is in the north and the dry part is in the south. Kelesh is basically Iran turned upside down. The Castrovin sea had to be a closed system with mountains keeping it cool, perhaps fed by glaciers.

The Vudran peninsula is isolated enough that instead of horse nomads taking over any outsiders are going to be mainly coming by boat. This would have some significant cultural consequences.

I figured Iblydos is perhaps an island in the Castrovin, since Mr. Jacobs' comments indicated it was an archipelago.

I thought the big lake in Garund was probably a rift-valley lake semi modeled on the mythical Lake Zaire.

I misspelled Kaladay in my first post, btw. Most of that side of Casmaron is going to be fairly cool north of it, with storms and typhoons frequent on the coast opposite Kaladay, where the tropics meet the arctic water coming south.

Let me know what you think

The Exchange

Nice work, Jeff. But I thought Iblydos was on the ocean, not on the Castrovin. What made me think that is that there seem to be very few archipelagos on inland seas, as far as I know. The Mediterranean may be an exception. I thought the Castrovin was equivalent to the Black Sea, though, which doesn't have any.

I really like where you placed your mountains.


Zeugma wrote:

Nice work, Jeff. But I thought Iblydos was on the ocean, not on the Castrovin. What made me think that is that there seem to be very few archipelagos on inland seas, as far as I know. The Mediterranean may be an exception. I thought the Castrovin was equivalent to the Black Sea, though, which doesn't have any.

I really like where you placed your mountains.

Thanks!

There's a contradiction that we should probably quiz Paizo on: the Varnhold Vanishing places Iblydos on the Castrovin, and Mr. Jacobs had an old post which put it in the Obari Ocean. I'm going with the newer, published source for now (until corrected, if that's not so)... Lake Superior does have a minor chain of islands in it-- and I think both it and the Castrovin Sea are glacial. Iblydos also has connections to the Cyclopes Empire, which was in northern and central Casmaron.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Iblydos is on the Obari Ocean. It's an ancient Greece analogue, with some other weirdness thrown in. A good place for centaurs, oracles, cyclopes, etc.

The Exchange

Good call. I don't have the Varnhold Vanishing book, so I didn't know about the change in location. It makes sense that Iblydos would be close to where the cyclops are/were. But an archipelago on an inland sea still feels "funny" to me. Oh well, Golarion isn't Earth, after all.

I hope we get a supplement (or anything, really) on Iblydos in future. I'm a big fan of the Achaean myths, and would love to see how Iblydos fits in between Iobaria and Casmaron.

The Exchange

Erik Mona wrote:

Iblydos is on the Obari Ocean. It's an ancient Greece analogue, with some other weirdness thrown in. A good place for centaurs, oracles, cyclopes, etc.

Argh! Just after I posted on how I could see Iblydos being on the Castrovin! Oh well. So, Mr. Mona, are you free to tell us where on the Obari Ocean is Iblydos?

The Exchange

@Erik Mona. Give us a hint about what the "weirdness" is on Iblydos? PLEEEEASE?
I'll promise to buy lots and lots more Paizo stuff!


Erik Mona wrote:

Iblydos is on the Obari Ocean. It's an ancient Greece analogue, with some other weirdness thrown in. A good place for centaurs, oracles, cyclopes, etc.

Duly noted.

I think I was led astray by my reading of the VV, p.55. So Iblydos may be presumed to be the islands south of Kelesh.

I'll go fix that on the map now.


Fixed. I'm pondering how to map the map better. Should I take the quick and easy route and use CC3 or make it myself?

Hmmm.


Zeugma wrote:

@Erik Mona. Give us a hint about what the "weirdness" is on Iblydos? PLEEEEASE?

I'll promise to buy lots and lots more Paizo stuff!

Seconded.


Justin Franklin wrote:
Stereofm wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:


Corsair is a french word which doesn't seem appropriate, although the idea of swashbuckler/pirate archetype is very appealing. (possibly the free hand fighter archetype or something similar)

Aah ! Some Al-Qadim discussion !

Possibly the best campaign I ever mastered ! if only ...

Corsair may not be the best word (I would not know), but there is definitely room for some swashbuckling. While I have not read it, I believe Sinbad the Sailor would be a good start.

Oh definitely need to keep the idea, but I think we should come up with a better name.

The Arabic word for pirate is Azab. The Persian/Iranian word is Mal-awar, referring specifically to Arab pirates, meaning "those who carry off wealth."


Jeff de luna wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Iblydos is on the Obari Ocean. It's an ancient Greece analogue, with some other weirdness thrown in. A good place for centaurs, oracles, cyclopes, etc.

Duly noted.

I think I was led astray by my reading of the VV, p.55. So Iblydos may be presumed to be the islands south of Kelesh.

I'll go fix that on the map now.

Pathfinderwiki has the cite I was first thinking of (Campaign Setting, p.153):

"The vast, landlocked Castrovin Sea stares from the center of Casmaron like an unblinking eye, lapping against the forlorn shores of Iobaria in the north; the forgotten cities of ancient kingdoms like Ninshabur, Kaskkari, and Iblydos in the west; and mighty Kelesh in the south..."

Hopefully this got revised in the Inner Sea Guide.


Jeff de luna wrote:
Jeff de luna wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Iblydos is on the Obari Ocean. It's an ancient Greece analogue, with some other weirdness thrown in. A good place for centaurs, oracles, cyclopes, etc.

Duly noted.

I think I was led astray by my reading of the VV, p.55. So Iblydos may be presumed to be the islands south of Kelesh.

I'll go fix that on the map now.

Pathfinderwiki has the cite I was first thinking of (Campaign Setting, p.153):

"The vast, landlocked Castrovin Sea stares from the center of Casmaron like an unblinking eye, lapping against the forlorn shores of Iobaria in the north; the forgotten cities of ancient kingdoms like Ninshabur, Kaskkari, and Iblydos in the west; and mighty Kelesh in the south..."

Hopefully this got revised in the Inner Sea Guide.

Of course, being a total retcon geek, I'd like to suggest that perhaps Iblydos had an empire on mainland Casmaron which reached the western Castrovin (a la Alexander the Great) and then got beat back to their home isles.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

If the islands south of Casmeron are ancient Iblydos/Greece, I wonder if they were the original owners of the island that was conquered by Nex and eventually taken over by Vudrans that became Jalmeray. That might be the gateway between a mother culture that had moved farther into the Near East/Casmeron than it is in the real world. There's got to be a bit more proximity if Iblydos affected Avistan in any way like Greece affected Europe, especially back in the days before the Acadian and Obari Oceans connected.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

Jeff de luna wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Iblydos is on the Obari Ocean. It's an ancient Greece analogue, with some other weirdness thrown in. A good place for centaurs, oracles, cyclopes, etc.

Duly noted.

I think I was led astray by my reading of the VV, p.55. So Iblydos may be presumed to be the islands south of Kelesh.

I'll go fix that on the map now.

Yes, correct. I think it may have some mainland territory as well, which could explain the Castrovin reference. I'm not sure at the moment, now.


At first I thought Iblydos could have territory from the coast nearest the islands, stretching inward towards the Castrovin Sea... But if Paizo`s map is REMOTELY accurate, that`s just alot of land mass to cover. (Is Iblydos supposed to be connected to the Kelesh Empire or not?)

I kind of like the idea of an inland Iblydos being a remnant of a previous large kingdom/empire/culture ...With the islands and the remaining inland territories having taken very diffent paths but still being known as `Iblydos` (local neighbors in either locale would be widely separated by what looks like lots of mountains, and likely might not be 100% clear on the distinction between near-by Iblydos, far-away Iblydos, and Iblydos of myth/history). Splitting up the remnants of ancient culture seem to put it`s true nature/history slightly further out of grasp, i.e. more mysterious.

As `one of the oldest nations`, I can see a para-Armenian/Metsamor/Urartu vibe (some `Greek` temple styles first appeared in Urartu and connections with the Minoans seemed to exist as well). Similarities with Sumerian/Akkadian cultures would fit here (at least in it`s earlier past, it`s present could be more Greek-like). Fitting that into a background of a fallen Giant/Cyclops civilization (with Human component) seems pretty do-able :-)

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