Is the barbarian class unbalanced and THE fighting class?
Our group seems to think, that the barbarian class has to much power (10ft movement bonus, ragepower(s), damage reduction, ...) and is better as all the other meele classes. They say the barbarian is a better fighter, but I think not and found some answers in some threads here.
Here are the results:
(...)
- The barbarian has a +2/+2 melee advantage over the fighter until level 5.
- After ~10 level the fighter has a better attack and damage bonus.
- The fighter always has a major advantage in AC over the barbarian.
- The barbarian always has a slight advantage in HP over the fighter.
- After 5th level, the fighter is superior to the barbarian in all ways.
- When survivability is considered, the damage output of the fighter is dramatically higher.
- The idea that the barbarian is a DPS class is false.
(...)
What do you think about this?
I think the biggest "Barbarian Problem AND Bonus" is the rage ablitiy. Rage is verry nice and gives you some good boni, but you can´t do everything in rage (like casting spells) and can´t rage the hole day long and when you run out of rage, you got a big problem.
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Hm. this has been talked about a lot and in waaaaay greater detail than I'm able to produce, but I'll give it a shot.
-- A fighter can out-dpr a barbarian, but it costs them feats to do so. So in matching a barbarian, the fighter has to commit their class features (more feats). Barbarians just get rage, which scales with their level and requires no feat/ability investment.
-- Ditto with survivability. A barbarian's AC will be lower, but they don't ALWAYS have to rage. If the lack of AC puts them in danger, then they don't have to rage and can still put up some good dpr. Even then, there are barbarian archetypes that can give them ridiculous DR; this will boost their survivability much higher than an AC fighter's.
-- AC is not the only measure of survivability. Barbarians will likely have better saves. A fighter, OTOH, has to spend some of their feats to remain competitive. We're seeing that the fighter's bonus feats can be deceiving; they have to spend a lot of them to account for the class features of other classes. Their feat advantage looks more striking than it ends up being.
-- Barbarians get rage powers, which can further close the gap between the two. Rage powers scale better with level than do feats, as I understand. Barbarians can't cast spells while raging. They also cannot cast spells while not raging. This matches them up well with fighters, who also cannot cast spells.
-- Barbarians get more skill points, giving them more out-of-combat utility.
-- For a "who is the best DPR" discussion, you'd be remiss if you didn't include the paladin. Smite Evil is (arguably) the best DPR ability in the game. There is, of course, the caveat that not all enemies are evil, but you'll have a target more often than not. And sometimes that target will be an evil outsider, dragon, or undead and then the DPR discussion isn't even close.
-- Paladins also have much better survivability than fighters by virtue of vastly better saves. A lot of the AC difference will be balanced by a paladin's ability heal themselves as a swift action.
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Barbarian IS the better Fighter.
So are Rangers and Paladins.
This does not make them overpowered. It makes the Fighter UNDERpowered. He's better at straight up damage dealing than most (discounting Smite and FE), but has much less utility out of combat and options in combat as well.
The Barbarian is the DPS class because he can get Pounce, which makes his damage output much more CONSISTENT than the Fighter's overall slightly higher attack/damage per hit (he can full attack more often), his AC doesn't much suffer with that route either (Beast Totem grants him a Natural Armor bonus which at first offsets, then grants him EXTRA AC in Rage), and his saves are likely to be better (Superstition is pretty baws, the Fighter should get something like it IMO).
Rage Powers are all around better than Feats are, both in interesting-ness and power. It's what makes Extra Rage Power such a good Feat.
When the Fighter can just saunter up to his enemy and wail on him, he'll win the DPR fight every time. It's when wrinkles get thrown into the mix that everything starts to go south.
Ranger and Paladin likewise get some bonuses over the Fighter as well, most prominently being better skills (Ranger), better saves (both), and the ability to spike damage vs certain targets (both) while still being Full BaB/D10 HD classes.
To add insult to injury, a Ranger only gets like 2 (3?) Feats less than the Fighter does a lot of the time (for 10th, sure, haven't built to 20 before), and he can ignore prerequisites on those. Str Rangers that TWF are pretty awesome all around.
That's why there's so many darn threads on the Fighter as well as the Monk and Rogue.
TL;DR: Yes the Barbarian is better than the Fighter overall (not straight DPR calculations). So are the Ranger and Paladin. That isn't saying much.
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The barbarian is a fully balanced Martial Class. It has less DPR than Mr."I can Last All Day" fighter, but has pounce, AC, and bonuses to will saves. Also, a barbarian can afford to dump INT and will still have roughly the same skills as a fighter, so it can dump 2 stats instead of just one if it feels like it. The downside is the penalty to AC while raging (which is easily overcome via beast totem) and the lack of enough control to do things like spellcasting, thus discouraging it from multiclassing. Also, rage eventually will end, leaving the barbarian less capable in melee, but far from incompetent. I have to agree with Rynjin, being as good as the fighter is merely a matter of being better than a warrior NPC character. Barbarians are roughly the same as paladins, and rangers. Fighter is just underpowered because of the optimization required to make them effective.
1.) The Barbarian isn't above APL appropriate power level, in any way, even if he takes the most optimal Rage Power allocation (the aforementioned Beast Totem/Superstition/Spell Sunder one).
It gives the Barbarian a fraction of the in-combat options a spellcaster does. This is a good thing.
2.) That restriction already exists, in a way. If you take Beast Totem you can't take Dragon Totem, Hive Totem, etc. And there's some neat stuff in the other totems that aren't Hive totem.
And it'd be unpopular because it would be stupid. It'd be like saying Rangers were ONLY allowed to take the Feats from their Combat Style Feats table, and no others. It's not helpful at all.
I dislike pounce.
Personally I think every martial class should have some way to get Pounce.
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It practically sound like I am defending the monk while saying it, but fighters have the advantage of serving roles other than the DPS tank depending on the build. This becomes particularly true when archetypes are added into the mix.
For this argument, I will primarily turn towards STR Ranger's guide to TWF Fighter, due to the fact that TWF is a perfect example of how one can gain better control and DPS through spending a ton of feats.
STR Ranger tends to divide effective TWF builds based on two strategies. The first of these are pouncers. Basically, certain fighter archetypes can grant a conditional pounce (typically by abandoning the highest BAB attack). Combined with TWF and the bonuses from weapon training and feats, you can still do a ton of damage even with the loss of an attack or two. But this still feels like the poor man's barbarian, I suppose.
The other strategy, and I feel a better contender, would be the lockdown specialist. This strategy uses feats such as the stand still to stop opponents from getting away, allowing you to use full attacks all you want. The brawler archetype is particularly good at this by combining stand still with its "no escape" ability to reliably hold opponents down. It also has the ability to drop opponent's attack rolls and concentration checks just by standing next to them. By tying up the opponent and reducing their ability to actually attack through range or magic, this helps the brawler serve a purpose other than as a bludgeon or meatshield. Just punch the enemy in the face while the wizard can safely cast SOD spells and the archer can full attack from their nice safe sniping spot.
Yeah, at least tied to their specific class feature. I.E. "Pounce" on evil creatures for Paladins, "Pounce" on FE as Rangers, etc. Right now it's hard to get full attacks unless you're a RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian or an archer build.
Is the barbarian class unbalanced and THE fighting class?
Our group seems to think, that the barbarian class has to much power (10ft movement bonus, ragepower(s), damage reduction, ...) and is better as all the other meele classes. They say the barbarian is a better fighter, but I think not and found some answers in some threads here.
Fighter-vs-Barbarian:
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **...
This seems to me to be a comparison between the Fighter and the Barbarian that very deliberately omits Rage Powers which are a pretty huge freaking part of playing a Barbarian.
I see talk about restrictions like 'Barbarians can't rage all the time', but no comment that Fighters only gain their highest benefits with very specific weapons. And then, of course, its even more difficult to compare the two classes when you take archetypes into account.
I'll say this - I have a couple of Fighter builds I like, but I have a Barbarian build that will out-perform any Fighter build out there 8 days a week... and that's even before you get into the Fighter's biggest glaring weaknesses: saving throws and out of combat utility.
Hmmmmm I've never ran out of greatsword rounds before.
I see talk about restrictions like 'Barbarians can't rage all the time', but no comment that Fighters only gain their highest benefits with very specific weapons.
...
Case in point:
Hmmmmm I've never ran out of greatsword rounds before.
I see talk about restrictions like 'Barbarians can't rage all the time', but no comment that Fighters only gain their highest benefits with very specific weapons....
Case in point:
Hmmmmm I've never ran out of greatsword rounds before.
One of the things that seems to happen when the Fighter's ranking in the over-all hiearchy of martials comes up is that proponents seem to always focus on one very unrealistic scenario and ignore the much more common ones...
i.e. you always here them talk about how they never run out of resources, how they can just keep going forever, never running out of Smites, Spells, rounds of Rage, etc. - but they always fail to mention that everyone else in their party does. Everyone else stops and rests at some point to re-coup their spells and their abilities because no other class is designed around a 24 hour day. 'Ah-ha' the fighter smugly sneers, 'and ~that~ is why we are superior'.
Except they fail to realize (or refuse to acknowldge) that on their own they're toast. Sure they can hit things hard and take some hits as well, but they have absolutely no way of replenishing their most precious of resources (hit points) nor do they have any way of protecting their most glaring Achilles Heel (their saves), nor do they have any way of compensating for the areas they lack most (their skills). They rely on all of their comrades to do those things for them, healing their wounds, boosting their saves or dispelling their conditions and doing the talking/scouting/knowing for them.
The ironic thing is, when you take into account all of those 'consumable' abilities that supposedly limit Paladins and Barbarians and Rangers, those other martial classes usually outlast Fighters because they cover for their glaring weaknesses and either dramatically slow or easily replenish the hit points fighters take for granted. Sure, a Paladin might not have ALL of a fighter's feats and abilities, but he has access to the same armor, the same weapons and the fact that the Paladin starts out with immunities, much better saves, condition and 10x as many hit points due to Lay on Hands and can take down the most dangerous evil foes a good deal faster, chances are the solo Fighter's going to run out of life long before the solo Paladin runs out of spells and abilities.
And that, as they say, is that.
Fighters have their place. they are a solid class and I enjoy playing them very much at times... but you gotta call a spade a spade when it comes down to recognizing their ultimate limits.
Cue the "Fighter with UMD" posts.
Fighters are limited because of their hitpoints therefore Barbars are less limited than the Fighter.
I always have trouble following that line of thought.
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Does it cast spells?
Then it's not overpowered.
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As mostly established above; the barbarian is in almost every way superior to the fighter, in combat and especially out of combat.
Out of combat, the barbarian gets more skills, stuff like trap sense (scratch that, invulnerable barbarian for the win) and the ability to spend maybe 1 round of rage to do feats of amazing strength that the fighter, in his bland consistency, cannot pull off. Magical trap? no problem rage for one round to sunder. Strength surge, any of the raging insert skill here rage powers. Yes rage is "limited" but so are a fighter's hp, a wizard's spells, the cleric's heals, etc. The argument of limited resources is a silly one made by people who refuse to realize how the game is made to be played.
As for the argument that the fighter has better AC, if the barbarian spends one feat on heavy armor proficiency and spends 9000 on mithral full plate, a pittance at the higher levels, the barbarian will beat the fighter at the AC game. If you claim that the fighter doesn't have to buy that feat, I will tell you the barbarian class has only 4 other feats: power attack, raging vitality, combat reflexes (for those CaGM barbs) and extra rage power. They have a few feats to spare. Now we tack on beast totem and that's a +4 armor higher than the fighter. There are so few feats to boost AC out there the barbarian can probably take almost all the ones the fighter can. Oh, and did I mention we'll actually be able to cover more than one defense? The AC optimizer fighter gets all of AC and fortitude protected. The barbarian gets more. Also, after a while AC becomes far less relevant, because monster to-hits scale much faster, and abilities target touch and other defenses. A far more consistent defense for the barbarian is the DR route, going invulnerable rager, tasking the dragon totems and combat expertise -> stalwart.
Sidenote: The courageous weapon property is freaking amazing, and it's standard for barbarians because they get a morale bonus to strength. And a bard with good hope to the party and the barbarian is exceptionally better than the fighter, more so than before.
How was the fighter better again? I forgot.
Fighters are limited because of their hitpoints therefore Barbars are less limited than the Fighter.
I always have trouble following that line of thought.
To put it simply, the fighter running low on hit points/healing usually happens before the barbarian runs out of rage rounds (Or the wizard/sorcerer runs out of spells, for that matter).
To put it simply, the fighter running low on hit points/healing usually happens before the barbarian runs out of rage rounds (Or the wizard/sorcerer runs out of spells, for that matter).Fighters are limited because of their hitpoints therefore Barbars are less limited than the Fighter.
I always have trouble following that line of thought.
Oh yeah and the barbar doesn't have HP issues or the caster for that matter.
HP is not something you personally spend. There is no guarantee that you will lose any HP. You will definitely spend rounds of rage.
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To put it simply, the fighter running low on hit points/healing usually happens before the barbarian runs out of rage rounds (Or the wizard/sorcerer runs out of spells, for that matter).Fighters are limited because of their hitpoints therefore Barbars are less limited than the Fighter.
I always have trouble following that line of thought.
To play devil's advocate, if you have a character that can use a wand, and you've purchased a couple wands (2250 nabs you 1500 hit points if you're using infernal healing) it's possible for the fighter to keep on trucking. That said, your allies will run out of high level spells and other resources, and it soon becomes impossible for the fighter to go on alone, or with a weakened party.
To put it simply, the fighter running low on hit points/healing usually happens before the barbarian runs out of rage rounds (Or the wizard/sorcerer runs out of spells, for that matter).Fighters are limited because of their hitpoints therefore Barbars are less limited than the Fighter.
I always have trouble following that line of thought.
Oh yeah and the barbar doesn't have HP issues or the caster for that matter.
HP is not something you personally spend. There is no guarantee that you will lose any HP. You will definitely spend rounds of rage.
You're missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, every class needs to worry about HP. But if HP and healing are the first resource to be exhausted in a typical adventuring day, then that's the limitation that matters the most. And that particular limit hits the fighter just as hard as any other class. Harder, really, since the barbarian has rage powers that restore health, grant fast healing, and add temporary HP. And twice as many skill points, so taking UMD is easier.
To put it simply, the fighter running low on hit points/healing usually happens before the barbarian runs out of rage rounds (Or the wizard/sorcerer runs out of spells, for that matter).Fighters are limited because of their hitpoints therefore Barbars are less limited than the Fighter.
I always have trouble following that line of thought.
Oh yeah and the barbar doesn't have HP issues or the caster for that matter.
HP is not something you personally spend. There is no guarantee that you will lose any HP. You will definitely spend rounds of rage.
You're missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, every class needs to worry about HP. But if HP and healing are the first resource to be exhausted in a typical adventuring day, then that's the limitation that matters the most. And that particular limit hits the fighter just as hard as any other class. Harder, really, since the barbarian has rage powers that restore health, grant fast healing, and add temporary HP. And twice as many skill points, so taking UMD is easier.
You need more feats not skill points to get UMD. The fighter has twice as many feats. Usable UMD checks are easier for the fighter.
You don't have the rage powers to spare for the once per day healing ones.
HP is a resource you run out of during an encounter not across the day.
If you think you don't need skill points to use UMD I'd suggest you go back and check the skill system again.
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...How do you use feats to get UMD? Any skill relevant feats are strictly not combat feats, so barbarians can buy them at the same rate a fighter can, plus I'm pretty sure my previous post made it clear barbarians need very few feats, leaving flexible ones they normally put into rage powers because rage powers are awesome (also, barbarians get one less rage power than fighters gain bonus feats, and at the same levels too. They just lose out on the first level ability). As for boosting the skill itself, I see two feats the boost it, and two that can help acquire it (additional traits and cosmopolitan) and if you're aiming at UMD you might as well take the Dangerously Curious trait anyways.
Also, barbarians have a few abilities that synergise more with charisma, the intimidate ones, spirit totem (though suboptimal) etc.and they have more skills to afford UMD and other charisma based skills, so yea, barbarian has more of a reason to boost charisma, thus a higher UMD. Plus they don't have to spend as many points on wisdom, as they have higher saves from rage and superstition if they took it.
If you think you don't need skill points to use UMD I'd suggest you go back and check the skill system again.
He's just trolling you guys.
Its not as if Barbarians are helpless without Rage or Paladins helpless without Smite/Lay on Hands... they get access to the same weapons and they still have access to inexhaustible abilities like Damage Resistance and Immunities. He knows this, just like he knows that the Barb/Ranger/Pally's ability to deal with initial threats more decisively using their 'limited' resources means they are less likely than the Fighter to expend the hit points he hoards in the first place. a Barb/Ranger/Pally without their resources is just a weak Fighter - a Fighter without his hit points is a corpse.
And the Fighter + UMD + Wand argument is laughable. Any fighter who's burning attributes on Charisma and limited skill ranks on UMD is going to be gimped already, and besides - last I checked we were comparing the classes, not bragging about the crutches classes can buy to shore up their obvious weaknesses. And speaking of those crutches...
Here's a quick question - who has the worst access to Wands of Cure Wounds; Rangers, Paladins, Barbarians or Fighters? Well, Paladins and Rangers already have the spell trigger so they don't need to waste skills and Barbs even have more skills than the Fighter so they're still better off. Looks like the Fighter loses again.
Umm correct me if I am wrong but the barbar grabs power attack and extra rage power for feats.
My fighter is swimming in feats. He can sacrifice two feats at level 1 (additional traits and Human focused study for skill focus feats) to grab both UMD and perception with a better than average bonus. (+8 perception at level 1, +20 UMD at level 10). All with 10 int, 10 wis, and 10 cha. Then for the extra skill point you have you can grab survival. All three of your skills will receive a skill focus feat bonus eventually.
My fighter spends 2/22 feats for all that. A barbar already has perception so for my trick he would need to pick a different trait. He spends 2/11 feats just to get UMD, an extra trait, and two skill focus feats. Not sure if UMD is worth two extra rage powers.
Umm correct me if I am wrong but the barbar grabs power attack and extra rage power for feats.
My fighter is swimming in feats. He can sacrifice two feats at level 1 (additional traits and Human focused study for skill focus feats) to grab both UMD and perception with a better than average bonus. (+8 perception at level 1, +20 UMD at level 10). All with 10 int, 10 wis, and 10 cha. Then for the extra skill point you have you can grab survival. All three of your skills will receive a skill focus feat bonus eventually.
My fighter spends 2/22 feats for all that. A barbar already has perception so for my trick he would need to pick a different trait. He spends 2/11 feats just to get UMD, an extra trait, and two skill focus feats. Not sure if UMD is worth two extra rage powers.
Hm. I thought we were talking about the strengths and weaknesses of classes, not the strengths and weaknesses of what people can buy...
See my response above.
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If you think you don't need skill points to use UMD I'd suggest you go back and check the skill system again.
1 skill point per level.
1.
Even a fighter with 2 int. can pull that off.
BEst part is it's charisma based.
You know what else is a charisma based set of abilities?
Eldritch heritage.
What does eldritch heritage require?
Skill Focus.
You know who can get skill focus (whatever for free and still get Skill Focus (UMD)?
Humans with Focused study.
So by spending one skill point, choosing a common race, and skill focus I get plenty of UMD and my favorite EH feats.
I can get a trait that gives me +1 in UMD and get is as a class skill so just toss another +4 on the cake.
UMD is an easy skill for any class to get. People fall on it for fighters because they ahve the feats to spare to get thigns like skill focus.
People underestimate the fighter class because all they see is a bunch of bonus feats.
I see the potential to build something wondrous from nothing.
Umm correct me if I am wrong but the barbar grabs power attack and extra rage power for feats.
My fighter is swimming in feats. He can sacrifice two feats at level 1 (additional traits and Human focused study for skill focus feats) to grab both UMD and perception with a better than average bonus. (+8 perception at level 1, +20 UMD at level 10). All with 10 int, 10 wis, and 10 cha. Then for the extra skill point you have you can grab survival. All three of your skills will receive a skill focus feat bonus eventually.
My fighter spends 2/22 feats for all that. A barbar already has perception so for my trick he would need to pick a different trait. He spends 2/11 feats just to get UMD, an extra trait, and two skill focus feats. Not sure if UMD is worth two extra rage powers.
Hm. I thought we were talking about the strengths and weaknesses of classes, not the strengths and weaknesses of what people can buy...
See my response above.
I don't need more than 10 cha to reliably use wands
Skill points are not a limitation. Both the fighter and barbar have more than enough skill points. It's not like the fighter NEEDS too many skills to be a fighter. He's free to spend those wherever.
1 skill point per level.
1.
Even a fighter with 2 int. can pull that off.
BEst part is it's charisma based.
You know what else is a charisma based set of abilities?
Eldritch heritage.
What does eldritch heritage require?
Skill Focus.
You know who can get skill focus (whatever for free and still get Skill Focus (UMD)?
Humans with Focused study.
So by spending one skill point, choosing a common race, and skill focus I get plenty of UMD and my favorite EH feats.
I can get a trait that gives me +1 in UMD and get is as a class skill so just toss another +4 on the cake.
UMD is an easy skill for any class to get. People fall on it for fighters because they ahve the feats to spare to get thigns like skill focus.
People underestimate the fighter class because all they see is a bunch of bonus feats.
I see the potential to build something wondrous from nothing.
Nothing you said there is something a Barbarian cannot do.
If you think you don't need skill points to use UMD I'd suggest you go back and check the skill system again.1 skill point per level.
1.
Even a fighter with 2 int. can pull that off.
I have been trying to articulate that.
Articulate that somehow a Fighter allocating half his skill points to UMD is better than a Barbarian allocating a quarter of his to the same, for the same effect?
Nothing you said there is something a Barbarian cannot do.UMD is an easy skill for any class to get. People fall on it for fighters because they ahve the feats to spare to get thigns like skill focus.
People underestimate the fighter class because all they see is a bunch of bonus feats.
I see the potential to build something wondrous from nothing.
Thats because it is not somethings barbars want to do. Barbars don't want to spend two feats to grab a skill they can't use while raging. Compared to grabbing two more rage powers.
A fighter has double the feats a barbar has and benefits more from getting UMD by also getting perception at the same time. All for half the total feat percentage a barbar would expend.
But he wouldn't be spending Feats.
Human with Focused Study. Skill Focus for free for 4(?) skills over the levels in exchange for the 1st level Bonus Feat.
Articulate that somehow a Fighter allocating half his skill points to UMD is better than a Barbarian allocating a quarter of his to the same, for the same effect?
My fighter gets 3 skill points per level. What better skills to spend those on than perception, UMD, and Survival? What else would I grab, climb? pfff
But he wouldn't be spending Feats.
Human with Focused Study. Skill Focus for free for 4(?) skills over the levels in exchange for the 1st level Bonus Feat.
That cost the human bonus feat. 3 feats at 1, 8, and 16. Also you need to grab additional traits for any games where you don't start with traits.
They both spend 2 feats. A fighter has twice as many feats though.
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Really, this is another UMD martial arguement? UMD isn't as good as it seems. It is a waste of feats, skills and money IMO because if you want to be EFFECTIVE at casting, you roll a wizardey character or a Clericey character. Perception is a better skill all around because there will always be something to see but there will not always be a wand to cast. You don't roll a fighter to be a healer or a blaster caster, you roll a fighter for DPR. You don't roll a barbarian to be a healer or a blaster caster, you roll a barbarian for DPR. The DIFFERENCE is that a barbarian does it better than a fighter.
I'm not one to argue that. Pounce kind of ends the whole debate.
Someone tried to ignore the rage limit for barbars because fighters have to use particular weapons.
Which like all conversations involving the fighter ended up about UMD and people thinking you need more than 10 cha to use it.
Nothing you said there is something a Barbarian cannot do.
You didn't read my post then.
I said anyone can do it. Even if I played a commoner.
The reason why it works for fighters as opposed to barbarians is because their class gives them room to expand rather than a tunnel to follow.
Really, this is another UMD martial arguement? UMD isn't as good as it seems. It is a waste of feats, skills and money IMO because if you want to be EFFECTIVE at casting, you roll a wizardey character or a Clericey character.
Who said anything about being effective?
It's about having tools open up to you. Good ones at that.
It's not just about DPR.
As for pounce?
Just about everyone can get pounce in one form or another. :)
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Wow guys. UMD is irrelevant. Fighters and Barbarians can do it. You shouldn't be using UMD in combat. It wastes actions that are better spent killing. Half of your justifications for fighters doing it is based on race, not class. Nothing the FIGHTER CLASS gives helps with it, and that's what we are discussing. The abilities of two classes, neither of which give much for UMD. I also find UMD to be far overrated. The only thing it might be good for is buffing, which is better done out of combat or by a main caster than a melee character who is giving up full attacks to cast. Not to mention it is a money sink.
Umm correct me if I am wrong but the barbar grabs power attack and extra rage power for feats.
Nice mangling what I said there. Fighters have to spend feats forcing them into a selective niche of a single weapon with the weapon focus chain to be relevant compared to the other martial classes. All barbarians need feat wise is power attack and raging vitality to keep that same DPR relevance, allowing them to be more flexible with their feat expenditures, which normally go to extra rage power, as rage powers are better than feats.
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Nobody tried to ignore the rage limit for barbars because the fighter needs to use one weapon, the person was pointing out the weakness of a fighter since the weakness of a barbarian had been pointed out. If we are talking about spending near-useless feats then might I point out that there is a feat that expands Barbar's rage but nothing expand Mr.Allday Fighter's weapon training.
Wow guys. UMD is irrelevant. Fighters and Barbarians can do it. You shouldn't be using UMD in combat. It wastes actions that are better spent killing. Half of your justifications for fighters doing it is based on race, not class. Nothing the FIGHTER CLASS gives helps with it, and that's what we are discussing. The abilities of two classes, neither of which give much for UMD. I also find UMD to be far overrated. The only thing it might be good for is buffing, which is better done out of combat or by a main caster than a melee character who is giving up full attacks to cast. Not to mention it is a money sink.
Absolutely you should spend more actions killing. I've yet to hear someone deny that.
As for overrated? Possibly. It is a money sink, it does cost you an action in combat to use (but hey I'm not pouncing anyway right?), and worse it tends to be very difficult to pull off. Kind of sucks to invest a lot into.
But it's there. I can't always rely on my primary spellcasters to get what I need right when I need it. They may have better things to do. We may be facing opposition we never accounted for. And it's honestly easy for me to get. I picked human because it was convenient. I could go half elf, or hell, even Aasimar if I wanted (and will).
You can call UMD irrelevant but while we're at it let's call half those rage powers you talked about irrelevant as well. Seeing as most of them have nothing to do with killing and I can paly other classes to get certain ones. Heck, I can "pounce" with a magus so let's discount that as well.
In any case this debate's been done a thousand thousand times. Barbarian's are definitely better at DPR, and heck they have better saves too. In terms of raw numbers barbarians have fighters beat. No denying it.
But last I checked the game was more than just having big numbers. There are three hundred post threads dedicated to building interesting fighters in the general forum. Check them out and see for yourself everything the class can do.
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Who said anything about being effective?
It's about having tools open up to you. Good ones at that.
It's not just about DPR.
As for pounce?
Just about everyone can get pounce in one form or another. :)
The whole point of this argument is the effectiveness of the two classes, and which is more effective.
2/3rds of the OPs argument, if not more, was about combat and DPR. More to the point, combat is all the fighter classes gives. It gives combat feats armor training, weapon training, and I guess you could mention bravery sorta. Those are all at their core combat abilities.
As for your pounce statement, it is vastly more difficult to get pounce as any other class as the barbarian. The ways I know of are: 3 levels in horizon walker + an extensive non-combat-feat chain of Dimensional Agility which won't come online until 15th level or so, AND is much more limited than barbarian rounds per day. And by going horizon walker you're not really saying any class can get pounce, you're saying any character can get pounce by spending a bunch of skill points and mostly useless feats to take 3 levels in a class for the sole reason of dimension door 3/day. Another way I can think of is to spend 3 feats on skill focus (knowledge), eldritch heritage: arcane, and improved familiar, and buy a wand of dimension door. However, improved familiar requires a caster level, so a fighter can't get it that way either. Finally, you can spend money on quick runner's shirts, which would only give you pounce once per fight (since you'd have to change shirts), AND is banned from PFS (I believe).
You didn't read my post then.
I said anyone can do it. Even if I played a commoner.
The reason why it works for fighters as opposed to barbarians is because their class gives them room to expand rather than a tunnel to follow.
You apparently haven't read much of the fighter class. All it does is force people into a tunnel. 4/11 of your feats are basically locked in to compete in any relevant way with the other martial classes. That's more than 1/3rd of their feats. Suddenly, you're stuck with one weapon to stay relevant. How is that not a tunnel? To get the highest weapon training bonus you need to be stuck into one range of weapons, and since they tend to share the same damage type, it's rare to have a backup weapon of the same type. More "tunnel[s]" for the fighter.
You're exactly right in one regard. Anybody can make UMD useful. That's what makes it irrelevant in any class vs. class comparison.
Completely Off track: I didn't notice you there AM13. You changed your picture.
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Nobody tried to ignore the rage limit for barbars because the fighter needs to use one weapon, the person was pointing out the weakness of a fighter since the weakness of a barbarian had been pointed out. If we are talking about spending near-useless feats then might I point out that there is a feat that expands Barbar's rage but nothing expand Mr.Allday Fighter's weapon training.
There is a magic item for that. Feats and money are both currency, you can spend one to replace the other pretty easily.
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You can't get pounce unless you are a high level barbarian or druid, but you can get psuedo-pounce via 20 levels in Dervish Dancer. Still not a practical way for non-druid/barbarians to get pounce though.
Sidenote:
Completely Off track: I didn't notice you there AM13. You changed your picture.
The old one was kind of Pervish when I looked at it.