A situation happened in the game last night, where one of the other PCs killed the horse of my character. My character happens to be a chaotic neutral Druid.
The situation is rather complicated. An evil necromancer wanted a certain evil magic book, so he took a hostage and told the party's Paladin to get the book for him, in exchange for the hostage's life. We went through an adventure to get the book, and drained of resources and without enough time to sleep or recover spells, rode to the place where we were going to exchange the book for the hostage.
(The evil NPC did not know that we had actually substituted a fake book for the real book, but we in the party of course knew that.)
When we got there, the BBEG wasn't there, but his servants were, and they demanded the Paladin approach to deliver the book.
My Druid was worried that this could be a trap, and that if he went up there, he could be captured. So she made the demand that if they wanted the book so badly, they could meet the party in the local tavern in town, bring the hostage, and we could make the exchange there. It sounded like a perfectly reasonable idea to her.
Negotiations dragged on, and the evil guys made an ultimatum with a ten second countdown. My Druid was the one carrying the book, so, calculating that the evil guys would not harm the hostage while they believed they could still get the book, she unilaterally started riding back to town.
The rest of the party did not agree with her decision. To stop her, the Sorcerer cast Magic Missile on the horse, stopping the horse.
So, yielding to the desires of the rest of the party, she handed the pack containing the book to the Sorcerer (after taking her money out), and just sat down while the Paladin and Sorcerer went up to deliver the book.
It turned out that this was not a trap, after all. The Sorcerer and Paladin came back down, with the hostage, who was still alive. But the Druid's horse was dead, so the party took longer to get back into town because she refused to ride on anybody else's horse.
My question is, how should a druid react to another party member killing her horse? My thoughts are:
* She is chaotic neutral, so she does not have a code of honor that requires any sort of revenge or anything like that.
* Both she and the sorcerer did what they believed to be the best course of action.
* But he did cause the death of an innocent animal, which goes against druidic ethics. As a druid, she is concerned that people have respect for nature, for plants, and for animals.
* But on the other hand, she is from a warrior culture, and realizes that if horses are going to be ridden into dangerous places, some of the horses are going to be killed. There are probably myths and rituals regarding this.
* Her patron deity is Silvanus, who is historically a Celtic deity.
* The sorcerer offered to buy her a new horse, and she accepted.
My thought is that the horse got the proper rituals. Because the Sorcerer is buying her a new horse, that should patch everything up. But to make sure that he understands, she can let him know that if he does it again, she will cast dolorous sadness on him.
Thoughts, comments, or cries of outrage?
Up until the very end, I thought that the horse was your animal companion, but I guess not. Sounds reasonable to me.
Seems to me that your character was in the wrong for taking it upon himself to decide on the party's behalf to ride away with the McGuffin in spite of their objections; possibly endangering the life of the hostage. Better that the sorcerer had cast his spell on your horse than your druid. Offering to buy you a new horse seems like a reasonable act of contrition on the sorcerer's behalf. As I see it, your druid has no one to blame for his horse's death but himself. If your druid is not going to apologize to the party in turn for acting childishly, the least he can do is refrain from leveling threats at the sorcerer.
"Doing something stupid is better than doing nothing at all." At least then something will be accomplished, maybe a good thing.
I believe that the above should read...
Doing the less than optimal thing Right NOW is often much better than doing the perfect thing too late!
Doing the dumb thing is always doing the dumb thing. :) No matter how many times you chop the 50,000 volt electric fence with your giant metal axe, it's always the dumb thing.
Common sense, of course applies.
The party should have been more organized, although on the other hand, the PCs were rather seriously sleep deprived at that point, so apologies all around.
I don't think what my character did was that stupid, although it should have been arranged before we made it to the drop-off point. The BBEG wanted to book more than he wanted a dead hostage. The BBEG knows he can trust a paladin, while the party knows that we can not trust the BBEG. And a meeting in the town would prevent treachery from both sides.
Sorry, I didn't mean to call you stupid. I was just saying that action is better than hesitation.
As long as the character does, what he thinks is right, from the character's point of view there are no issues.
Recently I was in a session where we were battling a dragon. It cast deeper darkness and stayed in the room. My whole party fled the fight. Me being a Barbarian and made my fear save vs its fear aura: I wasnt going to run away. so I walked up to the dragon and fought it, with rage, I had scent so I was in the right direction. Luckily I got a crit in with my vicious Scythe, which ended the fight leaving me on something like 4hp. And yes I somehow made all my miss chance rolls. It was really stupid to go up against a dragon alone and while blind, but its what my barbarian would have done. And it worked :)
Since you have already accepted a new horse as repayment, it would be churlish to seek further reparation for this offense. That doesn't mean you have to forget it though! It would be reasonable to distrust the sorcerer in the future, or distrust her with horses or other animals, or even just make a joke of it on occasion so that she doesn't forget.
"I'm riding down to the river for some water. Nobody shoot my horse on the way, all right?"
I wouldn't have accepted the horse as repaiment. Would you accept a paid warrior as repaiment if he kills another PC?
I would have him participate with you in grief ceremonies and thelike. A bit of fluff, let him spent some gold in temples of your deity.
And either you'll never trust him with animals again, or you let him buy a horse that he is personally responsible for.
Never trust him with animals would mean you sneak up in the night and "free" every animal he might have.
anyway, have fun, and RP-ing is not more important than the group staying together and have fun
It all depends on whether your druid treated the horse as a car or as a companion. If she knew her horse, knew the horse's moods, and would have been upset if it had died from an accident, then she should be upset about it being killed on purpose. If, on the other hand, she considered it property worth X GP and she would have happily swapped it at the next livery stable without thinking about it or bothering to name it, then the sorcerer has made amends by paying the GP for a new horse and that's the end of it.
Never trust him with animals would mean you sneak up in the night and "free" every animal he might have.
rofl
My only question is what happed to the horse after it was slain.
Was it butchered for its meat?
Was it skinned for its hide?
Was its bones fashioned into something useful, like bone weapon, thigh bone walking stick, rib cage bone armor?
PS = Were is a 4th level Shape Bone spell for Druids. :)
I wouldn't take an aggressive act toward this due to that you didn't get the parties permission but then again they weren't in their right minds. But I WOULD cast spells on the sorcerers horse to make it hard for him to even ride it, let alone do anything else.
If I were playing a "jerk" druid, I'd demand that my horse be raised from the dead. Heh.
LOL raised dead horse.... if your a Druid, you take a bit of bone and Reincarnate the horse if you liked it that much:)
..............
Oh boy, i can tell lots of people did not grow up on a farm, were you had to cut a chicken head off, pluck it, and then fry it in a pan for lunch.
PS = The Phrase "Chicken running around with its head cut off", is not made up, they really do run around with there head cut off, if you let them go. Getting hit in the face with a bloody chicken gibbet, does shock you tho the first time. LOL
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* Her patron deity is Silvanus, who is historically a Celtic deity.
The name didn't sound very Celtic so I looked it up.
In history SIlvanus was a Roman deity.
However, this also got me thinking about why you felt that information was important.
I am intrigued, what do you regard as the implications of being a Celtic deity, rather than a deity from some other culture?
I still want to know how a Magic Missile killed a horse...
Of course why he used Magic Missile is also confusing.
Ying and Yang ... balance in all things.
Even if you let the horse rot on the side of the road, that is a part of life. Bug, birds of pray, foxes, and other animals will eat the horse. The plants can use its bones as a source of calcium.
.........
When i play druids, i try to not waste dead animals. When i GM, i do not require this of other druids, as this is just one few or way of looking at the world out of many.
You should throw a feast for the rest of the party to make up for your actions--then serve them the horseflesh as the main entry!!!
All under heaven eventually withers and dies. Your companion took the life of your animal in what he believed the best way to save the life of another companion. It is tragic, but I see no one to blame but the evil who held your companion against their will.
Peace upon you, my brother.
When you get to a sufficient level, Awaken his horse.
When you get to a sufficient level, Awaken his horse.
LOL now that is the best thing i have heard yet :D
When you get to a sufficient level, Awaken his horse.LOL now that is the best thing i have heard yet :D
A horse is a horse is a horse of course..
A horse is a horse is a horse of course..When you get to a sufficient level, Awaken his horse.LOL now that is the best thing i have heard yet :D
Yup. Then convince the Sorc you used the spirit of the dead horse to do so. Kind of a "Now he's YOUR problem" type of thing.
So, you were trying to play smart and get the hostage and your party out alive, but the rest of your party was either so terrified by the BBEG's threats or trusting of the BBEG's motives that they killed your servant/friend to stop you.
You could walk away from the party as you do your end of life rites for the horse, and roll-up a new character that can roll along with the hypocritical and/or simple-minded majority in this party.
Or, you could learn this lesson about their society, and the next time someone in the party walks off with a npc against your wishes, kill the npc to stop them. If an innkeeper is being unhelpful, kill their barmaid. Apparantly you're expected to kill their servant if you disagree with someone's methods. You can always buy that someone a replacement after if they're upset, and you can do your druidic respect for the dead rituals on them for free on top of that.
Oh boy, i can tell lots of people did not grow up on a farm, were you had to cut a chicken head off, pluck it, and then fry it in a pan for lunch.
PS = The Phrase "Chicken running around with its head cut off", is not made up, they really do run around with there head cut off, if you let them go. Getting hit in the face with a bloody chicken gibbet, does shock you tho the first time. LOL
I wouldn't eat chicken for YEARS after seeing this happen on my great-aunt's farm. An animal that will literally run around like a horror-movie zombie, and THEN collapse onto a farmyard covered in chicken droppings...nope, not eating that.
They never shoulda made a seven-year-old city boy help out with the animals, is all I'm saying...
Or, you could learn this lesson about their society, and the next time someone in the party walks off with a npc against your wishes, kill the npc to stop them. If an innkeeper is being unhelpful, kill their barmaid. Apparantly you're expected to kill their servant if you disagree with someone's methods. You can always buy that someone a replacement after if they're upset, and you can do your druidic respect for the dead rituals on them for free on top of that.
That is an absolutely beautiful way to RP it. I vote this method.
Then again, I'm a sick puppy.
Oh boy, i can tell lots of people did not grow up on a farm, were you had to cut a chicken head off, pluck it, and then fry it in a pan for lunch.
PS = The Phrase "Chicken running around with its head cut off", is not made up, they really do run around with there head cut off, if you let them go. Getting hit in the face with a bloody chicken gibbet, does shock you tho the first time. LOL
I wouldn't eat chicken for YEARS after seeing this happen on my great-aunt's farm. An animal that will literally run around like a horror-movie zombie, and THEN collapse onto a farmyard covered in chicken droppings...nope, not eating that.
They never shoulda made a seven-year-old city boy help out with the animals, is all I'm saying...
Ha, i wan hungry... even if i was 12 year old. With a Hachit. Was told Kentucky Fried Chicken (was not called KFC at the time), that it was to expensive, and if i wanted Fried chicken, i would have to do it myself.
And it collapsed in wood chips... were we keep the axes and hardwood tree stump we used for wood chopping.
The worst part is the Plucking, hot wet bird feather, do smell bad.
..........
To be honest, i was glade when we got rid of the chickens finally. Running around in flip flops, was sometimes messy if your were not careful. Having a water faucet by the door, did come in handy sometimes.
PS = Chickens do make great pets if you raise them yourself from chicks.
You could also go the passive-aggressive route as a druid and use Speak with Animals to tell the sorcerer's horse what he did to your horse, and how the horse should watch his back and never give the sorcerer the slightest provocation or the sorcerer will just magic missile him to death because that's what the sorcerer does with horses he considers inconvenient.
If the horse doesn't decide that stepping on the sorcerer's head while he sleeps is a good course of action, then that horse has a deathwish.
How did magic missile kill the horse? Horses have 15 HP and 17 Con. Magic Missile caps out at 5d4+5 for 25 damage leaving the horse at most at -10. The horse could have been healed and fine at that point... unless the druid left the horse to "bleed" to death?
I am confused.
Empower Spell maybe?
Empower Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
Or, you could learn this lesson about their society, and the next time someone in the party walks off with a npc against your wishes, kill the npc to stop them. If an innkeeper is being unhelpful, kill their barmaid. Apparantly you're expected to kill their servant if you disagree with someone's methods. You can always buy that someone a replacement after if they're upset, and you can do your druidic respect for the dead rituals on them for free on top of that.That is an absolutely beautiful way to RP it. I vote this method.
Then again, I'm a sick puppy.
I second this vote. You only have to do it once for the party to get your point. And you could make the argument that the entire party is at fault.
yea,
Im going ahead with this party interaction was messed up.
Lets say it was my magus, instead of a druid, who has no attachment (specifically) to animals.
And a party member shot my horse out from me. Thats a personal attack first of all, and depending on character alignment the DM probably wouldnt have allowed interparty combat (which is what this is)
But I would have answered that with a lightening bolt I think.
You are supposed to take violent attacks just lying down?
Or, you are supposed to allow other party members do dictate to you your own actions?
Ive played alot of evil PCs in my day,and I wouldnt have done something like this even then, unless it was dire straits (who wants to blow their cover right?)
It's stupid for an evil PC to shoot someones horse thats in his own party, when the party supplies him with mutually beneficial support.
If he wants to shoot someones horse he could shoot someone else's.
So what you have as an issue, is another party member who wants to control your actions and choices through threats, intimidation and violence.
1) Id probably leave the party,
2) the paladin agreed with the course of action and supported it? (automatic need to atone in my book)
3) I may not even choose to play with a player out of game who attacks me if he doesnt agree with my decision.
You had already decided to give them a fake book, the person you made the agreement with wasnt there as agreed, they are evil people to begin with and not to be trusted... I dont see anything wrong with insisting on not handing over what you promised until they have what they promised in place.
So you refused to hand over the (fake) book, because you thought it was a trap. It turned out not to be but there was no proof that at the time.
The hostage could have been an illusion, something didnt feel right to you...
so you walked away, you just happened to be carrying the book.
IF there is anymore of this behavior from a player like that, im sure to find another group.
Do whatever it takes to get your party shouting at you to stop "beating a dead horse". How many times does that come up in such a literal way?
You are in a party, not the ruler of some empire. Read the excerpt. The Druid went against the party wishes. Sure he/she is playing chaotic but that's why you don't play CN characters in a party, if you play them right they are not in a party because they usually want to do whatever they want to do or what typically benefits them.
If the group decides a course of action you either go with the flow or find another party that kills everything and is also CN or go it solo.
Your Druid needs to realize that he/she is not the only force at play here. The Druid should realize that his/her actions caused the Horses death by being unreasonable.
The Party decides they want to explore a cave, the Druid says I don't think so and starts off with the mule that holds the parties exploration equipment. The mule is fair game.
Be a team player or don't play a group game. You can always play WoW if you want to go it solo...
yea,
Im going ahead with this party interaction was messed up. […]
So what you have as an issue, is another party member who wants to control your actions and choices through threats, intimidation and violence.
I have to say it did come off that way to me too. However without more facts… maybe it was some good RP? It does sound like the group hasn’t fallen apart over it – a good sign.
Back to the actual question :)
If you really like the character and don’t foresee this conflict snowballing into bad blood between players, your druid should take the new horse and call it even. A CN druid is not necessarily going to leave her companions/friends over one, ordinary horse. I think giving over the book the way they did does sound kinda like a dumb move. But maybe their characters are not that smart or maybe their conscience wouldn’t let them risk the hostage’s life on the chance the evil BBG wouldn’t… you know. Just think of it like this - The sorcerer did what he/she thought was right in a very tense situation.
It was messed-up though. No reason to let the sorcerer live it down.
You are in a party, not the ruler of some empire. Read the excerpt. The Druid went against the party wishes. Sure he/she is playing chaotic but that's why you don't play CN characters in a party, if you play them right they are not in a party because they usually want to do whatever they want to do or what typically benefits them.
If the group decides a course of action you either go with the flow or find another party that kills everything and is also CN or go it solo.Your Druid needs to realize that he/she is not the only force at play here. The Druid should realize that his/her actions caused the Horses death by being unreasonable.
The Party decides they want to explore a cave, the Druid says I don't think so and starts off with the mule that holds the parties exploration equipment. The mule is fair game.Be a team player or don't play a group game. You can always play WoW if you want to go it solo...
I disagree with this line of thinking ENTIRELY. A CN character can be an excellent source of RP if done properly. You say that a CN character must always act on impulsiveness and self-fulfillment, but that is not true. Chaotic neutral is just that; they are just as likely to follow the rules as they are to break them. Han Solo got Leia back to the Rebels and brotha' dipped.
But he came back. Argue that he's true Neutral, Chaotic Good, whatever... Point is, he went from being a money grubbing smuggler with low moral fiber to a decent soldier, but that doesn't mean he isn't a scoundrel anymore.
The druid acted spontaneously. Was it intelligent? Obviously debatable. Was it wrong? No. Opinions are welcome, but please take your venom and jerkish attitude to another forum.
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* Her patron deity is Silvanus, who is historically a Celtic deity.The name didn't sound very Celtic so I looked it up.
In history SIlvanus was a Roman deity.
However, this also got me thinking about why you felt that information was important.
I am intrigued, what do you regard as the implications of being a Celtic deity, rather than a deity from some other culture?
Silvanus was included (erroneously) in the Celtic Mythos in the 1e Deities and Demigods. Silvanus was never a Celtic god, and was most likely a Romanification of Lugh.
Silvanus was included (erroneously) in the Celtic Mythos in the 1e Deities and Demigods. Silvanus was never a Celtic god, and was most likely a Romanification of Lugh.* Her patron deity is Silvanus, who is historically a Celtic deity.The name didn't sound very Celtic so I looked it up.
In history SIlvanus was a Roman deity.
However, this also got me thinking about why you felt that information was important.
I am intrigued, what do you regard as the implications of being a Celtic deity, rather than a deity from some other culture?
I think the significance of it being a "Celtic" deity is that there was a lot of importance placed in livestock, and there was a deity of horses (Epona, or some other spelling I think; it's where they got the horse name in Zelda, I believe). The problem with Celtic mythology is that there are a lot of variations and few records of the broader scope. There is a lot of information out there, but some of it is contested and contradicted. My girlfriend took Irish literature last semester, and some of the stories they read had two or three versions.
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I think the significance of it being a "Celtic" deity is that there was a lot of importance placed in livestock, and there was a deity of horses (Epona, or some other spelling I think; it's where they got the horse name in Zelda, I believe). The problem with Celtic mythology is that there are a lot of variations and few records of the broader scope. There is a lot of information out there, but some of it is contested and contradicted. My girlfriend took Irish literature last semester, and some of the stories they read had two or three versions.Silvanus was included (erroneously) in the Celtic Mythos in the 1e Deities and Demigods. Silvanus was never a Celtic god, and was most likely a Romanification of Lugh.* Her patron deity is Silvanus, who is historically a Celtic deity.The name didn't sound very Celtic so I looked it up.
In history SIlvanus was a Roman deity.
However, this also got me thinking about why you felt that information was important.
I am intrigued, what do you regard as the implications of being a Celtic deity, rather than a deity from some other culture?
My point is the word "Silvanus" doesn't exist in Gaelic or any of the other Celtic languages (it's obviously a Latin word). Furthermore, the Roman god was a patron of domesticated land, not the wild. He protected agriculture and livestock, he wasn't a god of wild things, but of an agrarian "civilized" society.
Now, in D&D (the original Deities and Demigods, Faerun) he's a solid choice for Druidism, but in real history, not so much. Silvanus worshipers had little care for protecting the wild spaces, after all. And this is just in relation to the druid as presented in D&D/Pf, not historical Druids, who wouldn't recognize their hippie dippy Greenpeace style D&D counterparts.
The next morning, the Bard then found himself 'Arcane Locked' in his room at the inn, (no clue how that happend) he climbed out the window (2nd floor). The following morning I was going to lock the windows too, as I had just enough castings per day to do it, but the campaign fell apart do to lack of leadership in a sandbox still adventure. BTW, bards don't have 'Knock' on their spell list, muhahaha!
Hmmm... Not sure I would've accepted the 'Player vs. Player' (lethal force) aspect of that situation, nor would my DM, though it was the horse and not the character. I think it would've probably been a do-over. I was also curious as to how a 'Magic Missile' had 'killed' even a riding horse. *shrug* I personally wouldn't have accepted a buyout/bribe, but if that's your party dynamic so be it.
You could always obsess over horses, worrying if tomorrow would be their last day to live....
Oh boy, i can tell lots of people did not grow up on a farm, were you had to cut a chicken head off, pluck it, and then fry it in a pan for lunch.
That is a vastly different situation and a chicken is an animal bred for to sole purpose of producing food. The horse was his property and it was apparently his only means of transportation as he then had to walk back to town alone. I don't think anyone is wishy-washy over a dead horse, more so over his destroyed property, at least that's how I see it. ;)
How did magic missile kill the horse? Horses have 15 HP and 17 Con. Magic Missile caps out at 5d4+5 for 25 damage leaving the horse at most at -10. The horse could have been healed and fine at that point... unless the druid left the horse to "bleed" to death?
I am confused.
I should have brought that up with the GM. My druid has the Stabilize orison prepared, so I should have asked "Dead, or dying?"
But because I didn't think to ask the question, and the GM didn't think to differentiate, I'll just have to chalk it up to one of those things that the horse got hurt worse than he should have -- maybe he broke his neck when he fell or something.
As a player I really should have thought to ask if the horse was only dying, because casting Stabilize would have been the first thing she would have thought of.
How did magic missile kill the horse? Horses have 15 HP and 17 Con. Magic Missile caps out at 5d4+5 for 25 damage leaving the horse at most at -10. The horse could have been healed and fine at that point... unless the druid left the horse to "bleed" to death?
I am confused.
I should have brought that up with the GM. My druid has the Stabilize orison prepared, so I should have asked "Dead, or dying?"
But because I didn't think to ask the question, and the GM didn't think to differentiate, I'll just have to chalk it up to one of those things that the horse got hurt worse than he should have -- maybe he broke his neck when he fell or something.
As a player I really should have thought to ask if the horse was only dying, because casting Stabilize would have been the first thing she would have thought of.
I wouldn't have accepted the horse as repaiment. Would you accept a paid warrior as repaiment if he kills another PC?
I believe that in warrior cultures there is provision for making amends for killing a warrior. The legend of Cuchulain comes to mind.
As a chaotic neutral daughter of a barbarian shaman who was slain by a dwarf, she has a bit of an existential attitude toward life and death.