Comments / Gripes / Complaints about anything and everything Pathfinder


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Didn't really see a place for this. Post here your issues/complaints and even things that you like in Pathfinder that you think were done really well, and adversely, very poorly.

Let's just say that as a DM/GM, I'm looking to give my PCs the best experience possible.

Sovereign Court

Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:

Didn't really see a place for this. Post here your issues/complaints and even things that you like in Pathfinder that you think were done really well, and adversely, very poorly.

Let's just say that as a DM/GM, I'm looking to give my PCs the best experience possible.

These things are all over the forum, they're mostly present as individual threads.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:

Didn't really see a place for this. Post here your issues/complaints and even things that you like in Pathfinder that you think were done really well, and adversely, very poorly.

Let's just say that as a DM/GM, I'm looking to give my PCs the best experience possible.

These things are all over the forum, they're mostly present as individual threads.

Probably are, but instead of me combing through tons of threads, I made a thread that everyone can post something in.

Call it a reference tool


inb4 1000+ posts about
"rogues suck" "casters too powerful" "fighters can't function without magical items" "summoner overpowered" "skills don't scale" "ALIGNMENTS!"

to be countered with
"everything can be solved by teamwork" "doing it wrong" "I don't see that" "strawmen" and "Removed a post, try to be civil"

Grand Lodge

This'll only end in tears.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
This'll only end in tears.

And mass popcorn consumption.


This can't end well. Posting here so that when this thread explodes and I feel like sifting through tons of arguments looking for entertainment I'll be able to find it again.

Liberty's Edge

Your thread title does not suggest that you are looking for anything positive. You are inviting a firestorm of unhelpful comments.

So here are my comments - I love the artwork! I love the detail put into the setting and the adventures. I have been running a home game for 16 months and we have really been enjoying the game.

I hope that you and your players enjoy it as much as we are.

Sovereign Court

I don't like being turned into a smurf: ooh, that makes me mad!

Scarab Sages

Gnomes rock... Web is still annoying to a DM (We drag out the book...every time to get it straight.

Oh, also, Kittens.

-Uriel

Liberty's Edge

Hi and welcome to the boards!

My suggestion? Don't jump into the deep end with such large open-ended questions without providing at least a minimal amount of info about yourself and what motivates your interest in having your Q's answered.

Creating a such a short non-descriptive OP asking for divisive opinions to be posted side-by-side in the same thread? Not going to do much in the way of helpful reading in the short or long term. Try to go more specific and provide more info about yourself so posters can target your Q's with answers that will be of relevant interest to you.

For example, try posting your GMing experience thus far, what has interested you in pathfinder, and your interest in catching the highlights of what the Pathfinder system can and doesn't offer. Ask fellow posters to post their top 3 favorites and 3 least favorite aspects of the system. I assure you that would go head and shoulders further than your original post.

Cheers!


Oh wow, an open invitation to edition war :D

Seriously though, if the OP has a specific complaint about a specific area of gameplay it's generally better to focus on that rather than creating one general complaint session that has absolutely no focus whatsoever.


I think that Pathfinder completely destroyed the game by taking away heavy armor proficiency from Clerics. I mean, it makes the class useless. In 3.5, I could wear my full plate, swing my Gnome Hooked Halberd (Exotic Weapon Proficiency is sweet !) and turn that pesky lich (really - I rolled the dice and, he, like, totally exploded !).

But Pathfinder took that all away from me, and now I'm left with my sorrowful tears.

Liberty's Edge

Liquidsabre wrote:

Hi and welcome to the boards!

My suggestion? Don't jump into the deep end with such large open-ended questions without providing at least a minimal amount of info about yourself and what motivates your interest in having your Q's answered.

Creating a such a short non-descriptive OP asking for divisive opinions to be posted side-by-side in the same thread? Not going to do much in the way of helpful reading in the short or long term. Try to go more specific and provide more info about yourself so posters can target your Q's with answers that will be of relevant interest to you.

For example, try posting your GMing experience thus far, what has interested you in pathfinder, and your interest in catching the highlights of what the Pathfinder system can and doesn't offer. Ask fellow posters to post their top 3 favorites and 3 least favorite aspects of the system. I assure you that would go head and shoulders further than your original post.

Cheers!

Great advice!

... and welcome to the boards!


I'm trying to think of my favorite of the stupid arguments and complaints we have had on here, and I really cant choose. I suggest a forum search with important words like 'broken', 'underpowered', 'overpowered', 'eidolon', 'paladin smite', 'stealth doesn't work'. That should get you started.


Kamelguru wrote:

inb4 1000+ posts about

"rogues suck" "casters too powerful" "fighters can't function without magical items" "summoner overpowered" "skills don't scale" "ALIGNMENTS!"

to be countered with
"everything can be solved by teamwork" "doing it wrong" "I don't see that" "strawmen" and "Removed a post, try to be civil"

This is an accurate summary. I think we could have capped the thread here.


Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:

Didn't really see a place for this. Post here your issues/complaints and even things that you like in Pathfinder that you think were done really well, and adversely, very poorly.

Let's just say that as a DM/GM, I'm looking to give my PCs the best experience possible.

Since most people are more interested in derailing your thread than contributing positively to it, I will set the example for everyone by actually answering your questions.

Caster Edition - I am still completely bewildered as to what thought process led to this, but the already strongest classes in the game were improved, and everyone else, who was already quite weak was nerfed further. The system goes out of its way, at every turn to tell you that if you are not playing a primary spellcaster you are Doing It Wrong. And no matter how much some people try to claim it's actually me saying that, I'm just the translator here. This manifests itself in many ways - a spell solves the problem, nothing but a spell can solve the problem, non spell solutions to the problem were heavily nerfed, spell based solutions to the problem were buffed... It also does not matter if the problem is combat related or not, for skills got the shaft too. Trying to play a Rogue for example will be a very short lived experience unless your DM deliberately cheats on your behalf, because there's a long list of things that bust stealth, and can then take advantage of the fact Rogues have the worst defenses in the game to kill the lone scout. In fact Rogues got the worst of the nerf bat. I can only conclude one stole the PF designer's car.

Now sure, in 3.5 non primary spellcasters weren't very good either for the most part but 1: Eventually, the WotC designers did make martial classes that could actually do their jobs effectively. 2: PF magnified this existing problem, rather than attempt to fix it. And while skills still expired at very low levels, they were at least semi useful in the meantime. It was actually possible, with sufficient optimization to make a scout not named Monster Bait for example. And perhaps more importantly, it was actually possible to make swording a valid lifestyle. Sure, you'll get nowhere fast with a weak class like Fighter, but the fine art of stabbing, and not being stabbed in turn was something you could potentially take part in as the initiator, and not the victim. Now I for one like martial characters being relevant, mostly because I like to play them, and also like my characters to not be an exercise in one beatdown after another, as they are a Red Shirt, vs Named Characters. If you are only interested in primary spellcasters, and further only interested in a specific kind of primary spellcaster that defeats everything via save or ______ spells (instead of say, buffing allies, or whatever) you might not regard this as a drawback. You might even think it is a good thing that PF is Caster Edition. However somehow I doubt you'll do that, as even the people who do just want to Tier 1 their way through everything are saying that they want a high powered game, not an auto pilot game. In other words, they don't want a free lunch, and PF makes it all too easy to just auto pilot the game with full caster teams, while ensuring any and all other options are not viable at all.

The only problem will come about if you, like some others around here attempt to deny this simple fact. Don't think you will, but it's a possibility. But that one simple title prefaces so many critical flaws that, in the current form at least renders it completely unplayable as written. Which is why it is not a coincidence that everyone around here either has one set of extensive house rules or another, or is actually playing freeform and calling it PF. It's because everyone knows, consciously or subconsciously the rules Do Not Work for anything other than an extremely narrow, and generally unsatisfying manner of play. Some admit it, some deny it, some rampantly lie about it, but everyone knows.

Sovereign Court

*quietly ties rope around codzilla in the hope that in this thread he has found a home*

:)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The vast differences in playstyle make blanket sweeping statements irrelevant or altogether invalid.

This is what we learn from these threads.


Fly dumb; skill system confounding; Barbarians mediocre; Stealth inept; naming system weird; experience tables dumb; trap making pointless; Rangers still wanna-be Druid; carry-over Prestige Classes unfixed; incongruities in carry-over material everywhere.


Bleh.


I automatically self removed my post before writing it to make Ross and Liz work easier.


Also, free tip for the OPer: Don't take the insulting crowd around here personally. It's best to just ignore them.


CoDzilla wrote:
Also, free tip for the OPer: Don't take the insulting crowd around here personally. It's best to just ignore them.

I thought that the best is: "To crush your enemies, drive them before you..."


While I am not entirely sure what game CoDzilla is referring to I must say that I would have preferred for Paizo to swing a big stick at backwards compability and bring their full development genius to bear on pathfinder.

As it stands Pathfinder is a vast improvement over 3.5 and, for me, the best that currently exists, but still not "teh best evah" and everything I gripe over is very likely just there to provide backwards compability.


There was an old thread on this subject over a year ago when the final version of PFRPG first came out. Some of the answers were quite insightful, I thought, although it dissolved slightly into "Is not" vs. "Is too", as expected.


MicMan wrote:

While I am not entirely sure what game CoDzilla is referring to I must say that I would have preferred for Paizo to swing a big stick at backwards compability and bring their full development genius to bear on pathfinder.

As it stands Pathfinder is a vast improvement over 3.5 and, for me, the best that currently exists, but still not "teh best evah" and everything I gripe over is very likely just there to provide backwards compability.

I do believe codzilla is talking about this behemoth


ok so its kind of a slow day at work so here are some of my favorites so far. OP please have a look at these threads

stealth doesnt work

swarms are rediculously dangerous to low level parties

dire lions = tpk

pathfinder didnt get rid of the christmas tree effect

more on getting rid of magic items

summoners are rediculous with their ebil beasties

paladins are too powerful

those are the ones i could think of off hand. I'll see what others I remember later.


To the guy with the massive post above...
I can see your grip with the lack of utility that other classes have but I have never seen a primary spell caster deal the most damage!
My game right now is overrun with ranged and two-handed fighters with crap like gravity bow on their weapon dealing 2d6(x2)+ 12 for their first shot alone and then they have another 2 to 3 to deal with and they are only level 6. Granted there are attack rolls to be made but it is still consistently more damage each round and a rouge in theory would deal more with help from his team.
And can I get an example of something "nothing but a spell can solve the problem" please?


I found another few threads dating from the Beta. I searched for "hogarth grapple", since I like complaining about grapple (14 pages of results...):

The Beta: What Do You Enjoy, Hate, And Huh?!

If you could change one thing...

What is the one things you hope is gone in the final release?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Primo wrote:

To the guy with the massive post above...

I can see your grip with the lack of utility that other classes have but I have never seen a primary spell caster deal the most damage!
My game right now is overrun with ranged and two-handed fighters with crap like gravity bow on their weapon dealing 2d6(x2)+ 12 for their first shot alone and then they have another 2 to 3 to deal with and they are only level 6. Granted there are attack rolls to be made but it is still consistently more damage each round and a rouge in theory would deal more with help from his team.
And can I get an example of something "nothing but a spell can solve the problem" please?

You really DON'T want to start "fighters vs. wizards" discussion with CoDzilla.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
hogarth wrote:

I found another few threads dating from the Beta. I searched for "hogarth grapple", since I like complaining about grapple (14 pages of results...):

The Beta: What Do You Enjoy, Hate, And Huh?!

If you could change one thing...

What is the one things you hope is gone in the final release?

Thanks for digging out the thread where you owned F.T. on the grappling issue. It was fun to watch =)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:

Didn't really see a place for this. Post here your issues/complaints and even things that you like in Pathfinder that you think were done really well, and adversely, very poorly.

Let's just say that as a DM/GM, I'm looking to give my PCs the best experience possible.

These things are all over the forum, they're mostly present as individual threads.

Probably are, but instead of me combing through tons of threads, I made a thread that everyone can post something in.

Call it a reference tool

And they'll still post to individual threads.. because people are just that way.


Gorbacz wrote:
Primo wrote:

To the guy with the massive post above...

I can see your grip with the lack of utility that other classes have but I have never seen a primary spell caster deal the most damage!
My game right now is overrun with ranged and two-handed fighters with crap like gravity bow on their weapon dealing 2d6(x2)+ 12 for their first shot alone and then they have another 2 to 3 to deal with and they are only level 6. Granted there are attack rolls to be made but it is still consistently more damage each round and a rouge in theory would deal more with help from his team.
And can I get an example of something "nothing but a spell can solve the problem" please?
You really DON'T want to start "fighters vs. wizards" discussion with CoDzilla.

I am not saying that fighters are better I am just saying that primary casters are not the only solution to all the problems.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
You really DON'T want to start "fighters vs. wizards" discussion with CoDzilla.

This reminds me of when Stewie tried to stop Brian before he instigated a "Surfin' Bird" tirade from Peter...


Kryzbyn wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
You really DON'T want to start "fighters vs. wizards" discussion with CoDzilla.
This reminds me of when Stewie tried to stop Brian before he instigated a "Surfin' Bird" tirade from Peter...

Don't you know about the bird?!


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
You really DON'T want to start "fighters vs. wizards" discussion with CoDzilla.
This reminds me of when Stewie tried to stop Brian before he instigated a "Surfin' Bird" tirade from Peter...
Don't you know about the bird?!

Hmmm...there should be something here of a certain..orinthological variety..


Cartigan wrote:
Fly dumb; skill system confounding; Barbarians mediocre; Stealth inept; naming system weird; experience tables dumb; trap making pointless; Rangers still wanna-be Druid; carry-over Prestige Classes unfixed; incongruities in carry-over material everywhere.

Wow.. I agree with Cartigan on something (basically everything you just said...) Excuse me while I go prepare for the coming apocalypse... :)


Oh, sweet, sweet Jesus.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post.

Here's hoping this thread stays civil.


Successful Troll believes hope springs eternal.


Hyperion-Sanctum wrote:

Didn't really see a place for this. Post here your issues/complaints and even things that you like in Pathfinder that you think were done really well, and adversely, very poorly.

Let's just say that as a DM/GM, I'm looking to give my PCs the best experience possible.

It is easier to use the search function to search for the one thread I need, than search thought a 1000 post thread on with various unconnected post.

post 1: My DM suck (variant 1)
post 2: My player sucks (variant 1)
post 3: I hate the grapple rules(variant 1)
post 67: My DM sucks (variant 3 or the first reply to a post made in post 34).

I think I will just stick with the single subject threads.


Since there are a lot of posts about the faults of the game, I will throw in what I think are the strengths.

IMHO Paizo APs are some of the THE BEST written adventures I have come across. There is a high instance of great writing and substantive optional rules systems to make for memorable campaigns. Kingmaker is particular standout, as is Legacy of Fire.

In Pathfinder you will find a game that keeps much of what was good about DnD 3.5 and only changed stuff that was really obscure or unhelpful. But as everybody plays this game differently, some people feel that not enough was changed. My feeling is that is what houserules are for. It is my experience that the vast majority of the game functions well, without the need to change stuff.

Pathfinder is built on DnD, and it is very aware of the RPG's history and traditions, and the designers KNOW the audience, and maintain a constant dialog with us, as can be seen on these forums, day in day out. The game itself has a very active community, the most active I have ever seen.

As for giving your players the best experience we can only help you do that if we know more about you and your players. Post about your campaign and I am sure in short order you will get advice and anecdotes about what has worked in the past in other people's experience.


I would have liked to see the multitude of game options streamlined. Backward-compatibility could probably have been maintained while reducing the information load. While they did introduce interesting new things I think it would have been nice if they had cut away others to reduce the total number of things one needed to keep track of in the head.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
I would have liked to see the multitude of game options streamlined. Backward-compatibility could probably have been maintained while reducing the information load. While they did introduce interesting new things I think it would have been nice if they had cut away others to reduce the total number of things one needed to keep track of in the head.

I'd think if a 3pp took up the task of converting the 3.5 complete books to PFRPG, they'd make alot of money.


Kryzbyn wrote:
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
I would have liked to see the multitude of game options streamlined. Backward-compatibility could probably have been maintained while reducing the information load. While they did introduce interesting new things I think it would have been nice if they had cut away others to reduce the total number of things one needed to keep track of in the head.
I'd think if a 3pp took up the task of converting the 3.5 complete books to PFRPG, they'd make alot of money.

Which I then imagine they would lose in an impressive number of lawsuits over copyright infringement?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cartigan wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
I would have liked to see the multitude of game options streamlined. Backward-compatibility could probably have been maintained while reducing the information load. While they did introduce interesting new things I think it would have been nice if they had cut away others to reduce the total number of things one needed to keep track of in the head.
I'd think if a 3pp took up the task of converting the 3.5 complete books to PFRPG, they'd make alot of money.
Which I then imagine they would lose in an impressive number of lawsuits over copyright infringement?

Is it all closed content? If they can refresh the core rules and be backwards compatible, its not that big of a stretch...

That having been said I am in no way advocating illegal use of copyrighted IP...


Ross Byers wrote:

I removed a post.

Here's hoping this thread stays civil.

ROFL.

You didn't remove anything now did ya? :D

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