Svirfneblin PC

[Covent]

Ok, I am starting a new Pathfinder game and one of the players wants to play a svirfneblin Witch. Now, after looking over the rules in the Bestiary and the Core rulebook it seems to recommend that the svirfneblin starts one level behind the rest of the party.

I can understand this as the racial abilities are quite powerful for this race.

svirfneblin race

My question is if the svirfneblin would ever catch up or just stay one level behind the party for the whole time?

My current ruling is that yes the svirfneblin would be and stay one level behind, however I want to make sure that my understanding is correct.

I am basing this off of the Core rule book stating that the svirfneblin are a "powerful" option and if I allow one player to play one then all other players should start at level 2.

Also, the monster PC rules state that to see how many catch up levels a Monster PC gets you simply divide their CR by 2 and round down. This would give the svirfneblin a number of catch up levels of zero making this character stay one level behind.

Anyway just looking for the actual rules on this and if I am ruling incorrectly.

Thanks

[Covent]

Any ideas on this?

[Stubs McKenzie]

Please allow some time for folks to respond before bumping your own post.

As I am at work atm I don't have access to my books, but if I remember correctly the PC will eventually catch up. Someone with more knowledge than I will certainly chime in soon to refute me if I am wrong. Will look when I get home for the progression table if not.

[gunrsm8]

The way that I understand it that the level adjustment is there to kind of equalize the power of a standard race vs. a non-standard race in the beginning. if all of your players are playing every session then most of the time after 1st level your players, including the non-standard one will be the same level. If you start the non-standard at 1st level and the rest at 2nd level would you withhold level advancement to the non-standard until the rest hit 3rd. I ask this because it takes less experience to 2nd then it does 3rd. I guess i am saying that they will be the same level but the non-standard will be behind in going up levels, and it would not be fair, more so at higher levels, to hold him back for thousands of xp at a time for what would be minor advantages at lower levels.

[Kryzbyn]

I think he'd always end up at least 1 level behind, or at the very least catching the other players for a session or so before they level again.

[Covent]

gunrsm8 wrote:

The way that I understand it that the level adjustment is there to kind of equalize the power of a standard race vs. a non-standard race in the beginning. if all of your players are playing every session then most of the time after 1st level your players, including the non-standard one will be the same level. If you start the non-standard at 1st level and the rest at 2nd level would you withhold level advancement to the non-standard until the rest hit 3rd. I ask this because it takes less experience to 2nd then it does 3rd. I guess i am saying that they will be the same level but the non-standard will be behind in going up levels, and it would not be fair, more so at higher levels, to hold him back for thousands of xp at a time for what would be minor advantages at lower levels.

I can see your point, about fairness and this is a major concern for me.

However, a race that grants a +3 reflex saving throw bonus, +3 will saving throw bonus, +2 fortitude saving throw bonus, +2 dodge Bonus to AC, +1 extra AC from Dex,
SR = 11+ class level, Constant Non-detection, 1/day Blur, 1/day Blindness/Deafness, 1/day Disguise Self, +1 on the DC of all Illusion spells along with (+2 Stealth/+4 underground), and a +2 perception bonus seems to be a bit unfair to players who chose to play the standard races, if there is no balancing factor.

Looking for that balancing factor led me to the passages in the core rule book and the bestiary I sited.

I just want to make sure that this is not already handled in someway and I am not just misunderstanding the rules.

It does seem from my current understanding that a svirfneblin would only catch up for a short time before the other players leveled again and only due to the difference in exp from level to level.

I am just hoping for some RAW citation on this so as to explain it to me as this is the first time I have had a player run a non-standard race.

Thanks

[gunrsm8]

I do not have any citation beyond what you have already looked at, but I have had players play non-standard races in my games and I have not found much of a problem at mid to high levels with more "powerful" races in the game. The first time I allowed a non-standard race into a game I talked to my friend and said if this does not work out he would need to roll a new toon at the level of the party. He said that would be fine but it ended up not being a problem. So if you are worried that is how I would play it.

[Bruce Snow]

I've been dealing with these same issues and this is the way I would handle it:

I would adjust the XP table for the svirfneblin PC so that for any XP value, he goes up to that Level -1.

For example, normally level 3 requires 7500/5500/3300 (depending on XP progression Slow/Med/Fast), so instead I would say the svirfneblin needs that much XP to go up to level 2. This keeps the character a level behind, but allows for easy bookkeeping as he would still level at the same time as the rest of the party.

Based on my proposal, the XP table would look like this for the svirfneblin:

Level Slow Medium Fast
2nd 7,500 5,000 3,300
3rd 14,000 9,000 6,000
4th 23,000 15,000 10,000
5th 35,000 23,000 15,000
6th 53,000 35,000 23,000
7th 77,000 51,000 34,000
8th 115,000 75,000 50,000
9th 160,000 105,000 71,000
10th 235,000 155,000 105,000
11th 330,000 220,000 145,000
12th 475,000 315,000 210,000
13th 665,000 445,000 295,000
14th 955,000 635,000 425,000
15th 1,350,000 890,000 600,000
16th 1,900,000 1,300,000 850,000
17th 2,700,000 1,800,000 1,200,000
18th 3,850,000 2,550,000 1,700,000
19th 5,350,000 3,600,000 2,400,000

For level 20, you would be looking at epic XP progression, which I don't have memorized.

[Stubs McKenzie]

I was wrong, and you are correct in that he/she would stay 1 level behind. I thought it was half CR rounded up, it's half CR rounded down :)

[o0NAVI0o]

hey im thinking of making a svirfneblin pc that will be an arcane archer and im wondering if this feat will work for my needs

:Arcane Talent: Only available to Elves, Half-Elves, and Gnomes. Allows the character to select one 0 level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to cast 3 times a day as a spell-like ability with Character Level as Caster Level

sins the svirfneblin is a undergnome would the feat above work?

[Gaberlunzie]

o0NAVI0o wrote:

hey im thinking of making a svirfneblin pc that will be an arcane archer and im wondering if this feat will work for my needs

:Arcane Talent: Only available to Elves, Half-Elves, and Gnomes. Allows the character to select one 0 level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to cast 3 times a day as a spell-like ability with Character Level as Caster Level

sins the svirfneblin is a undergnome would the feat above work?

It's a bit vague, as Gnome is both a subtype and a specific race, and the feat specifies half-elves which are only a race and also have the Elves subtype. I would imagine that when the feat was written, it was only intended for the race Gnome, rather than the subtype, because if it was referring subtypes mentioning half-elves would be unnecessary.

However, the interpretation can go either way, and it definately comes down to your group/GM.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I think people would have prefered if you'd started a new thread instead of raising a 4 year old one; you're aiming for arcane archer, not necromancer, after all.

[enrik]

In situations like this I try to balance the party not by level adjustment but by giving the other players something. Depending on the type of game I run that might be a bonus feat like a dragonmark from Eberron, an heirloom item, or some other perk.

[o0NAVI0o]

Gaberlunzie wrote:

o0NAVI0o wrote:

hey im thinking of making a svirfneblin pc that will be an arcane archer and im wondering if this feat will work for my needs

:Arcane Talent: Only available to Elves, Half-Elves, and Gnomes. Allows the character to select one 0 level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to cast 3 times a day as a spell-like ability with Character Level as Caster Level

sins the svirfneblin is a undergnome would the feat above work?

It's a bit vague, as Gnome is both a subtype and a specific race, and the feat specifies half-elves which are only a race and also have the Elves subtype. I would imagine that when the feat was written, it was only intended for the race Gnome, rather than the subtype, because if it was referring subtypes mentioning half-elves would be unnecessary.

However, the interpretation can go either way, and it definately comes down to your group/GM.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I think people would have prefered if you'd started a new thread instead of raising a 4 year old one; you're aiming for arcane archer, not necromancer, after all.

well thank you for your help and im knew to the sight and pathfinder still not sure hoe to make a new/ havent looked

[Covent]

MY thread!

*Sniff, Sniff*

BTW I ended up just giving 1 more trait to everyone else in the OP game and it turned out ok.

:-)

[Imperius Rex]

I was always told that if you started 1 level behind without RHD you take a level behind so at level 2 your guy is a level 1. But when you get between level 3 and 4 you trade out that CR level for a class level so when the party reaches 4th level the guy who has been a level behind the entire time is now on par with the party.