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Hi,
I have two questions to ask of the good people of Paizo, the first is how to work out some things in Burnt Offerings, which aren't deeply covered. The second, compounds the first....and could get into a big long thread.... :)
Some background: I am a relatively new DM. This is my third game, with my second group, I have DM'd each of those games, and am still learning as I go. On top of that, I am teaching the other players of the group. Oh, and this is the first time I have used a pre-published adventure path, modules, yes, but never a whole intertwined plot.
We are having fun, so I assume we are doing quite well, but the group, and especially one player with an especially forceful personality (player A), seems to only care about combat. They can be difficult to keep on track even in the heat of battle, but outside of that, they just want to skip to the next encounter and get more XP.
At this point, player A is the only male player/character, so was the only really obvious choice for Shayliss to approach, he is a dwarf, but hey, I could go with that. So, things progress as expected, Character A hears Ven Vinder coming, and is caught “in the act” so to speak, although only just after he realised what Shayliss was about.
Player A, doesn't seem to know what to do, so I say, either try to lie your way out of it (bluff) or be honest and try to calm Ven down (diplomacy) and tries, very weakly, to talk his way out of it (literally, one “I'm not doing anything” line), and makes an unfortunately low diplomacy roll.
Now, if he had been trying, and given me a little more to go on, I would have fudged a bit, and given him a bonus to the roll to take into account the role play, but he was obviously not interested, sighing, wanting to just get right back to combat. So, I explained that Ven was angry, but put up no fight as the PC left.
So now, Ven is upset, and his influence will, as per the description, give them negatives on diplomacy rolls until they can get him on side again, and Player got no XP for the encounter.
First question: How should this effect the PCs? Increased costs of goods? NPCs unfriendly? How exactly do I make these repercussions known to the players?
Second Question: How do I do this right next time? Do I tell the player that he basically threw (quite a lot, CR2 encounter with only one PC involved, at first level!) XP away because he assumed that only combat gives XP? I know at least part of the problem is my inability to role play all the characters very well, but that is confounded by them not role playing which is just a vicious circle....
I am at a loss, I am loving the flavour of Pathfinder, and I know that isn't going to come out for the players except through role play, and that they are going to miss vital clues but I really don't know what to do....
Right now they are part way through the glass works, and still have the “Grim news from Mosswood” and Rescue of Ameiko to go though, that will be role play heavy....
Thanks fro reading all this way.....any advice is appreciated!
I love how you dealt with it. Probably better on the whole than I would have. It's pretty obvious your friend wasn't enjoying what was going on, so you rushed him offstage as soon and gracefully as possible.
I would not stick him in the eyeball with the fact that he skipped out on XP. That's just going to aggrivate him, and it'll detract from the story by throwing in bald references to game mechanics. Plus it's not nice.
I'd stick to the results of what happened, and all of the stuff you mentioned sounds fine. Plus it'd be nice if (since your group likes combat so much) a lot of the end results turned into opportunities for combat. Mad rich guys who aren't good at combat certainly have other ways of striking back at people who they have problems with. Shayliss probably isn't going to let him off the hook either. Both of these could unfold into violence pretty easily.
But yeah, it sounds like you're doing fine. Good luck with your game!
In the game I'm running, Mr. Vinder pounded one of my PCs unconscious and threw him in a water trough outside the store. Having administered a satisfactory beating, the shopkeeper refuses to allow the party members into his store but has otherwise let the matter die down. Rumors are going around the town about "those randy adventurers".
The battered character was not dissuaded by the beating: He has been sneaking around with Shayless behind her father's back. When Mr. Vinder finds out, he's probably going to beat the fool unconscious again.
In your situation, I certainly wouldn't tell your player that he had "thrown away" experience. The encounter wasn't his cup of tea, so I'd just go on to other things if I were you. I would downplay the negative repercussions, just giving the characters an occasional negative reaction from other shopkeepers and suggesting that some odd rumors about them are circulating.
I think you handled it well. What I'd do beforehand would be to do a little prep as far as an axis-n-allies approach with Vale and who he holds sway with and those who do not.
As the owner of the General Store, his potential influence should be great. He *will* spread the rumor, and so I'd trace his influence to both the subtle and gross:
1) Without an apology, the store can refuse service to the group. If they want food rations, they need other means to get it, etc. (If the PC himself shows up, he gets chased out or gets into a brawl.)
2) Those other stores that believe and support Vale may likewise refuse service or increase prices by maybe 300% or so.
3) Those who might not immediately fall in line with Vale, might still no longer view the PC's as innocent heroes, and may poke the PC's for juicy details, may increase prices by maybe only 10% to 100%, or otherwise infuriate the PC's need for aid
4) As the group goes into taverns or down the street, people whisper, point, walk away, stand up from stools and walk as far away from the PC's as possible.
5) As you suggest, the Diplomacy check should have a circumstance penalty.
The cumulative effect for a good-aligned group is to perhaps get the rest of the group to figure out that an apology would go a long way.
I have a question along these lines.
The player that Shayliss approached completely balked about going anywhere with rats the size of goblins, so he blew her off. He then told the party cleric (a female player) who immediately figured out what Shayliss was up to. So the big bunch of tattle-tales went and told her parents.
I'm giving the party a neutral (but bad taste-in-the-mouth) reaction from the parents. Nobody actually got caught in the act of naughtyness, but no parent wants to hear that their daughter is the town tart either. Sort of a shoot the messenger type deal.
So how much damage can the town tart do to the PCs reputations?
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In your situation, I certainly wouldn't tell your player that he had "thrown away" experience. The encounter wasn't his cup of tea, so I'd just go on to other things if I were you. I would downplay the negative repercussions, just giving the characters an occasional negative reaction from other shopkeepers and suggesting that some odd rumors about them are circulating.
On the other hand, this might be an opportunity to show the Player the benefits of Role-Playing rather than Roll-Playing (which is okay too). How does he deal with a town that no longer sees him as a hero, but still looks at the others in a favorable, though lessend, light? How does he deal with the rest of the PCs who's good reputations are now tarnished some due to his actions? I say give him a chance to grow as a gamer.
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Thanks all, I think I will try to work in the repercussions and make it quite obvoious.
They also managed to annoy a few people at the glassworks, basically telling them where to go when they aked what was going on, and why they were trying to break in.
They seem to as a group be disregarding the townfolk, so I think they may just need to work out that that is not a good idea....
On the other hand, this might be an opportunity to show the Player the benefits of Role-Playing rather than Roll-Playing (which is okay too). How does he deal with a town that no longer sees him as a hero, but still looks at the others in a favorable, though lessend, light? How does he deal with the rest of the PCs who's good reputations are now tarnished some due to his actions? I say give him a chance to grow as a gamer.
I think I'll let him know that he could have got XP for that, but that handling it well enough to get the full XP would have been difficult.
Quite funny how they have managed to go from no-one, to town hero, to the subject of gossip and derision in the space of two days!
Quite funny how they have managed to go from no-one, to town hero, to the subject of gossip and derision in the space of two days!
Pretty realistic, too. Celebrity can turn into infamy real fast (Mel Gibson, Brittney Spears, etc.).
On the other hand some players embrace the interection with Shayliss. One of my players married Shayliss after some shenanigans by two other players. These two other players made nice with the old man and the player who married Shayliss is now a well loved son-in-law.
She is happy for now although she has been domesticating the player in question somewhat as well.
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Thanks all, I think I will try to work in the repercussions and make it quite obvoious.
They also managed to annoy a few people at the glassworks, basically telling them where to go when they aked what was going on, and why they were trying to break in.
They seem to as a group be disregarding the townfolk, so I think they may just need to work out that that is not a good idea....
On the other hand, this might be an opportunity to show the Player the benefits of Role-Playing rather than Roll-Playing (which is okay too). How does he deal with a town that no longer sees him as a hero, but still looks at the others in a favorable, though lessend, light? How does he deal with the rest of the PCs who's good reputations are now tarnished some due to his actions? I say give him a chance to grow as a gamer.I think I'll let him know that he could have got XP for that, but that handling it well enough to get the full XP would have been difficult.
Quite funny how they have managed to go from no-one, to town hero, to the subject of gossip and derision in the space of two days!
If you want them to 'connect' with the townsfolk and realise that not all dnd is combat a useful device can be "the adoring kids".
Basically, next time your adventurers march off to battle a bunch of kids follow them - one is hunkering down low and waving about a hatchet whilst doing his best dwarven accent, one wants to be the cleric and is waving about a fairly delicate religious totem they've taken from the mantlepiece, one wants to be the ranger and has a toy bow, smears mud on his face and keeps on leaping in ditches...
Persuading hero-worshiping kids to go away is hard work, but you can't go into battle until you've done it and it presents some fun RP.
And even the most insensitive PC is going to feel bad if they scare the kids off with an intimidate check - heroes don't make little girls cry!
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If you want them to 'connect' with the townsfolk and realise that not all dnd is combat a useful device can be "the adoring kids".
Basically, next time your adventurers march off to battle a bunch of kids follow them - one is hunkering down low and waving about a hatchet whilst doing his best dwarven accent, one wants to be the cleric and is waving about a fairly delicate religious totem they've taken from the mantlepiece, one wants to be the ranger and has a toy bow, smears mud on his face and keeps on leaping in ditches...
Persuading hero-worshiping kids to go away is hard work, but you can't go into battle until you've done it and it presents some fun RP.
And even the most insensitive PC is going to feel bad if they scare the kids off with an intimidate check - heroes don't make little girls cry!
Consider the idea stolen :)
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My Shayliss attempt was strange.
The target PC left just as Vinder was coming home, but he was not caught in the act and said something about No Rats here. The player also balked at Shayliss's advances. However, one of the other players has hit it on well with Vinder (that orc rotgut angle) and smoothed things out.
Now Shayliss has spread two rumors: the target PC does not like women and /or he is impotent.
So far this hasn't affected the PC except to earn him a bit of ribbing from the other PCs. However, this same PC has a bit of wrath in his head (having torn out Tsuto's tongue during an interrogation, brushing aside other PCs to do it), and I will use that to my diabolical advantage.
One thing I did do after the PCs leveled is have each PC evaluate the "Sin Level" of themselves and each other. Very telling and helpful.
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If you want them to 'connect' with the townsfolk and realise that not all dnd is combat a useful device can be "the adoring kids".
Basically, next time your adventurers march off to battle a bunch of kids follow them - one is hunkering down low and waving about a hatchet whilst doing his best dwarven accent, one wants to be the cleric and is waving about a fairly delicate religious totem they've taken from the mantlepiece, one wants to be the ranger and has a toy bow, smears mud on his face and keeps on leaping in ditches...
Persuading hero-worshiping kids to go away is hard work, but you can't go into battle until you've done it and it presents some fun RP.
And even the most insensitive PC is going to feel bad if they scare the kids off with an intimidate check - heroes don't make little girls cry!
Ohh! I am so going to use this.
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There are some major problem with going too heavy on the townsfolk giving the PCs a hard time. For every townsperson who gives them a dirty look, more should say "meh, always knew she was a slut". Probably should limit the number of stores that the PCs have trouble at. Otherwise, the town could be in for some trouble for two reasons:
1. If the majority of the town dislikes the PCs, it becomes a stretch for Sheriff Hemlock to leave them "in charge". And if he does anyway, the PCs might be up for some payback.
2. "We don't need no water, let the mutha f#*ker burn!" If the PCs are unpopular and can't even buy stuff in the shops, they'll probably want to leave the town as soon as possible and look for adventure elsewhere. What's their motivation for saving the town? (Besides loot and XP). If they get pissed and leave too soon, then they've really "jumped the rails" and it will be hard to get them back on the path.
At least you don't have a Shoanti hunter in your group that has taken to leaving the heads of his enemies on the Vinders' doorstep to impress Shayliss. Boy, did it complicate matters in Episode 2.
:)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At least you don't have a Shoanti hunter in your group that has taken to leaving the heads of his enemies on the Vinders' doorstep to impress Shayliss. Boy, did it complicate matters in Episode 2.
:)
Oh gods, I'm glad I'm not on the phones now because people are looking at me...
That story gets shared this weekend.
If you want to read more about it, check out the Ties that Bind Campaign Journal, one of my players is doing a great job converting the game to a fun read.
At least you don't have a Shoanti hunter in your group that has taken to leaving the heads of his enemies on the Vinders' doorstep to impress Shayliss. Boy, did it complicate matters in Episode 2.
:)
Nice.
"No really, it's a totally different MO! Rune carving is just freaky. But heads on the doorstep is part of a long and glorious cultural heritage."