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In at least half of the modules that I have played my Rouge character in I have had his sneak attack ability completly nullified by the encounter design for the module. I just played Echo's of the Everwar
part one and all of the combat encounters had either plants or barbarains so my rouge had his primary damage dealing power nullified.
I have only seen casters powers nullified in one module and yet Rouges gets screwed all the time. Why do the game designers screw the rouge in any way possible? The Game desgners can't or won't eratta the stealth rules to clarify them so they are more playable.
Why do barbarians get both uncannedy dodge and Improved uncanney dodge
before Rouges? When they are both clearly Rouge class abilities? This bascly nullifies any rouges sneak attack ability in PFS.
In Pathfinder RPG, plants are not immune to criticals/sneak attacks (to my knowledge).
I've seen some barbarians in PFS modules, but often (?) it's a monster with just a few levels of barbarian so they should be sneak-attack-able by a PC with full rogue progression.
I'm going to stay out of the Stealth debate.
In conclusion, I haven't seen anything particularly unfriendly to rogues, although I'm not a big rogue fan to begin with.
I've seen some barbarians in PFS modules, but often (?) it's a monster with just a few levels of barbarian so they should be sneak-attack-able by a PC with full rogue progression.
That works, assuming you're a melee/flanking style rogue. If your schtick is, say, greater invis and a bow two levels of barbarian beat you no matter how many levels of rogue you have.
At least the original poster isn't playing 3.5 or Living Greyhawk -- you pretty much could give up on sneak attacking anything important ever again around 6th level in that campaign.
That works, assuming you're a melee/flanking style rogue. If your schtick is, say, greater invis and a bow two levels of barbarian beat you no matter how many levels of rogue you have.
Doesn't regular Uncanny Dodge only protect you from being flat-footed (e.g. in the surprise round), not from losing your Dex bonus to AC in general?
Doesn't regular Uncanny Dodge only protect you from being flat-footed (e.g. in the surprise round), not from losing your Dex bonus to AC in general?
Nope:
At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
Er...what PRD are you looking at?
Maybe you're quoting from the rulebook?
I was using d20pfsrd -- it's more copy/paste friendly than Paizo's online PRD. I should have been more specific, although it's interesting to me that the wording doesn't match.
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In my games I rarely give cosmetics a second thought. The degree of detail some people here consider never fails to amaze and delight me.
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Also note that Uncanny Dodge doesn't stop the bad guys in question from being flanked. (Though Improved Uncanny Dodge does do that to some degree).
So far as I've seen, just about everything is sneak-able (well, not oozes & elementals, & anything else with the All-Around Vision power, but how often do they show up in the PFS mods).
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At least the original poster isn't playing 3.5 or Living Greyhawk -- you pretty much could give up on sneak attacking anything important ever again around 6th level in that campaign.
No kidding, even at 11th level I couldn't justify more than 3 levels of rogue (thankfully I had several levels of other classes).
While rogues are better off in PFS than LG they still get the short end of the stick in a lot of mods. Enemies with concealment, enemies in darkness (often magical darkness), lack of melee allies, abundance of magic using allies, etc...
In my games I rarely give cosmetics a second thought. The degree of detail some people here consider never fails to amaze and delight me.
You have, perhaps unwittingly, retold the oldest gaming messageboard joke in the world.
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While rogues are better off in PFS than LG they still get the short end of the stick in a lot of mods. Enemies with concealment, enemies in darkness (often magical darkness), lack of melee allies, abundance of magic using allies, etc...
To be honest, I really don't think it's that bad. Other melee characters (and even casters) have to deal with concealment/darkness as well. A rogue just is affected slightly more which would give credence to her taking feats like Blind Fight and Shadow Strike. In fact with these two feats a rogue would do BETTER in magical darkness/concealment that other characters. It's a great way to turn the scenarios disadvantage into a great advantage.
Basically, the rogue only does poorly against Elementals and oozes. And having only one rock to your scissor isn't so bad.
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This may be something that I missed or simply didn't understand properly to begin with, but where does it say that you *can't* make a "flank" attack with a ranged weapon? I see where it says that you don't get a *bonus* to your ranged attack roll for making an attack with a ranged weapon from a flanking position, but I don't think that's the same thing as saying that it isn't a "flanking" attack. After all, how can somebody who is vulnerable to an attack from a sector when the attack originated from 5 feet away somehow become *less* vulnerable to an attack from that sector when it originated from 30 feet away?
Also, as a partial answer to some of the concerns as they relate to darkness, may I simply point out that dwarves and half orcs wouldn't care. :-)
This may be something that I missed or simply didn't understand properly to begin with, but where does it say that you *can't* make a "flank" attack with a ranged weapon?
Generally, you need to threaten a creature in order to flank, and you usually don't threaten with a ranged weapon.
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You have, perhaps unwittingly, retold the oldest gaming messageboard joke in the world.
Dire Mongoose, can you elaborate? Me, a n00bspawn, is confuzzled and would like to know more.
I thought the oldest messageboard gaming joke had something to do with a dreaded gazebo that was terrorizing the land.
-Pain
Dire Mongoose, can you elaborate? Me, a n00bspawn, is confuzzled and would like to know more.
Basically, any joke which riffs on the common misspelling of 'rogue' as 'rouge'. The former of which being a thieflike character class and the latter of which being makeup.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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Basically, any joke which riffs on the common misspelling of 'rogue' as 'rouge'. The former of which being a thieflike character class and the latter of which being makeup.Dire Mongoose, can you elaborate? Me, a n00bspawn, is confuzzled and would like to know more.
I bet he is redfaced now...
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Getting back to the original topic, it may also partially depend on talent selection for the rogue. I will note that the Rogue Talent, Surprise Attack, is an EX ability for which it is stated:
"During the surprise round, opponents are always considered to be flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted." [Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 69]
So if nothing else one at least gets to frustrate the DM by requiring him to make a call as to which extraordinary ability (Uncanny Dodge or Surprise Attack) trumps the other. Granted that even a ruling that is favorable to the rogue only gives him one round to do his sneak attack in, but if everybody in the party realizes that if they get surprise on the barbarian they have to all target him before any other opponent then that coupled with the rogue's sneak may put the barbarian out of commission before the fight really starts.
The rules for Uncanny Dodge also state that it won't protect a character that has it from a feint, and while bluff and sense motive are class skills for a rogue they are not for a barbarian.
There is also the potential use of the feat chain (1) weapon focus, (2) dazzling display and (3) shatter defenses. One item of interest about those feats is that the way they are worded does not appear to restrict them only to melee weapons.
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Getting back to the original topic, it may also partially depend on talent selection for the rogue. I will note that the Rogue Talent, Surprise Attack, is an EX ability for which it is stated:
"During the surprise round, opponents are always considered to be flat-footed to a rogue with this ability, even if they have already acted." [Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 69]
So if nothing else one at least gets to frustrate the DM by requiring him to make a call as to which extraordinary ability (Uncanny Dodge or Surprise Attack) trumps the other. Granted that even a ruling that is favorable to the rogue only gives him one round to do his sneak attack in, but if everybody in the party realizes that if they get surprise on the barbarian they have to all target him before any other opponent then that coupled with the rogue's sneak may put the barbarian out of commission before the fight really starts.
The rules for Uncanny Dodge also state that it won't protect a character that has it from a feint, and while bluff and sense motive are class skills for a rogue they are not for a barbarian.
As the judge in the OP's Skull Hilling, I would state the following:
1) I incorrectly thought that plant types are unable to be sneak attacked. I regret the error, not that it would have helped in the final fight much. In fact, there are two encounters therein where the OPs sneak attack would have worked: the plants and against the chef. The OP declined to attack the chef and instead traded stew recipes and weapons with him. It was well roleplayed, but another place within the mod where his backstabby talents could have been applied.
2) I would have certainly given the OP the benefit of the ruling if he had Surprise! Attack as I firmly believe that player choices of cool talents/feats/whatever should 'win' where disputes like this happen. As it happened, it did not come up.
-Pain
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Plants are immune to rouge because they have no cheeks. Barbarians are immune to rouge because you can't see it underneath their war paint. Maybe the designers just screw rouge because:
a) they're pissed that nobody ever plays rogues anymore, or
b) that was kind of the intent of makeup in the first place, wasn't it?
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FWIW, I have a 2nd level rogue/oracle of waves that doesn't have a problem getting sneak attack damage with every attack every round (except the first). Of course uncanny dodge, elementals, incorporeals, and oozes still negate it, but that's a relatively low percentage.
I think he was more complaining about higher level, I have never had problems either, but I have never played higher then Level 6 with my 6th level rogue.
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I have a Rogue 5/Pathfinder Delver 1, and I'll add that I haven't had a problem getting sneak attacks. The main obstacle is when the rest of the party doesn't help you out by flanking. Being Small and being able to Stealth in a lot more places helps for those situations though.
I should also add that my rogue is a gnome and built for a lot of skills. A Perception of +19 (+22 for traps) and a Stealth of +16 offer a lot of utility. The Trap Spotter talent also makes adventuring much faster because we don't have to actively search a space for traps - Grikmet just spends most of his time scouting around between encounters in dungeon-esque modules.
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The main obstacle is when the rest of the party doesn't help you out by flanking.
My Barb/rogue had this problem early on. I'm not a fan of meta-gaming between "players", between rounds to set up perfect tactics, because the "characters" would need to be working that out in the game. It's an opportunity for some role-playing. I came up with a term in our local group that is becoming a common one. During a mod in the desert (I forget which one), I started calling the flanking maneuver the "Dance of the Desert Flower." Kinda corny, but it works. Now, whenever I see someone with an opportunity to flank, my character screams something to effect of "Hey [enter character name here], it's time to show these dirtbags the dance of the dessert flower." Since talking is a free action, this gets the point across and does it in game, for effect. It's a win-win and has created some interesting encounters, especially when the opponent happens to be a plant and live in the desert.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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Of course uncanny dodge, elementals, incorporeals, and oozes still negate it, but that's a relatively low percentage.
If you've got money to burn, pick up a ghost touch weapon to get rid of one of those obstacles.
Incorporeal Subtype|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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For those Rogues who
1) can make a DC 20 Use Magic Device check
2) have a standard action to spare
3) have 27 Prestige Award and
4) have 11,250 gp
Consider getting your faction to buy you a wand of Twilight Knife (APG 252).
For those Rogues who only meet 1) and 2) a wand of summon monster is a cheaper alternative but the spell will not last very long. Then again if you are scouting stealthily, maybe using the wand of summon monster to have a creature appear is the perfect way to alert the enemy to danger and cause an initiative roll to be made.
Bag of Tricks is another one I've considered.
If you're considering splurging 8,500 gp for a rust-coloured Bag of Tricks (the gray one is almost useless for flanking), I would highly, highly recommend spending the extra 1,500 gp to make it a Bronze Griffon instead.
Highly.
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Of course uncanny dodge, elementals, incorporeals, and oozes still negate it, but that's a relatively low percentage.If you've got money to burn, pick up a ghost touch weapon to get rid of one of those obstacles.
Incorporeal Subtype
Most of mine are from range... I wonder if a ghost touch weapon imparts that ability upon its ammunition.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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I am confused, why would you waste money on items that give you creatures you can use to Flank, when you can use another players character for free?
I have never had problems getting into a flanking position in a game. Of course my Rogue is made for moving around a lot if he needs to.
Because you can't always count on the other players, whereas, your creatures always attack your enemies.
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Because you can't always count on the other players, whereas, your creatures always attack your enemies.I am confused, why would you waste money on items that give you creatures you can use to Flank, when you can use another players character for free?
I have never had problems getting into a flanking position in a game. Of course my Rogue is made for moving around a lot if he needs to.
You can almost always count on 1 player go into Melee, so yes you can always count on other players. I think it is a waste of money to buy those kind of items for the few times you can't.
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...Then again if you are scouting stealthily, maybe using the wand of summon monster to have a creature appear is the perfect way to alert the enemy to danger and cause an initiative roll to be made.
I don't have any quibble at all with the more general proposition that Use Magic Device is a very useful skill and that rogues would be well served by maxing out that skill and getting as large a selection of wands as they can afford. What I don't understand is why one would want to burn a charge out of a wand just to force an initiative check. If by definition one is scouting stealthily and the other side doesn't realize that he's there, then all the rogue has to do is close to 30 feet and open up with a ranged weapon. That should automatically start a surprise round with the rogue being the one who's attacking. Even if the rogue doesn't have the "surprise attack" rogue talent there's a pretty fair chance he's going to catch somebody flat footed and vulnerable to a sneak attack. If not all that he's wasted has been an arrow, crossbow bolt or sling bullet as opposed to a wand charge and has most definitely "alerted the enemy to his presence".
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Most of mine are from range... I wonder if a ghost touch weapon imparts that ability upon its ammunition.Of course uncanny dodge, elementals, incorporeals, and oozes still negate it, but that's a relatively low percentage.If you've got money to burn, pick up a ghost touch weapon to get rid of one of those obstacles.
Incorporeal Subtype
Nope, Ghost Touch explicitly excludes it being passed from weapon to ammunition, so you would have to buy Ghost Touch ammunition for your ranged weapon. A bit pricey...
As to having parties where a rogue would have difficulty getting flanking, I have played in parties where my archer specialist fighter is the closest thing we have to a melee character, and he is pretty darn far from being a melee build...
I weill admit that, if circumstances are right, my archer can handle a bit of melee, having botht e Point-Blank Master feat, to allow him to use his bow while being threatened, and he has a spiked gauntlet equipped, which allows him to provide flanking, his AC is not up to that of a full tank build, since he has no shield bonus, as one example, to his AC. Heck, yesterday, an enemy charged him, and, with a 4 on the die, missed confirming the critical by 1...
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Nope, Ghost Touch explicitly excludes it being passed from weapon to ammunition, so you would have to buy Ghost Touch ammunition for your ranged weapon. A bit pricey...
Can you quote where you're getting this reference from? The PRD says:
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature’s 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.
It may not be on table 15-10, but that doesn't preclude it from being added to a ranged weapon. If it was precluded it would have a line at the end saying so, like Brilliant Energy, Disruption, etc.
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It may not be on table 15-10, but that doesn't preclude it from being added to a ranged weapon
Why would you claim that? Ghost Touch is not available to ranged weapons as it is not an option listed in table 15-10 Ranged Weapon Special Abilities. It is only listed on table 15-9 Melee Weapon Special Abilities. Of course, dual-purpose weapons, such as daggers, starknife, etc. are probably exceptions to the rule. But, it does not appear that strictly ranged weapons (bows, xbows, sling, etc), i.e. projectile weapons, are eligible for the Ghost Touch enhancement. Although, this is probably a discussion for the Rules board, not PFS.
BTW Brilliant Energy does not say it cannot be added to ranged weapons. It says, "This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition." IMO, this is just a limited factor on projectile weapons (bows, etc.). Also, Disruption seems to have been set up as a very specialized enhancement. It states, "A disruption weapon must be a melee bludgeoning weapon." Personally, I see no reason to limit to melee as there are only a few ranged bludgeoning weapons (sling bullet, hammer, bola, club), but I suppose the developers wanted to keep this enhancement from getting out of control with future weapon additions.
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Like I said, I don't see the table as a limiting factor. It's just a random item generation table. The individual special abilities spell out what can and cannot be placed on items, if you look at all the ones that aren't on the ranged weapon table, the individual ability will mention it can't be put on ranged weapons. The reason I listed those two are because alphabetically they are first, but you should also look at:
Distance
Keen
Ki Focus
Mighty Cleaving
Returning
Seeking
Throwing
Vicious
Vorpal
In fact there are only three abilities not listed on that ranged table but don't have restrictions listed in their specific descriptions. I don't see why any of them can't be added to projectile weapons/ammunition as they all make perfect sense to be on a ranged weapon:
Ghost Touch
Spell Storing
Wounding
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Nope, Ghost Touch explicitly excludes it being passed from weapon to ammunition, so you would have to buy Ghost Touch ammunition for your ranged weapon. A bit pricey...Can you quote where you're getting this reference from? The PRD says:
Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature’s 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.It may not be on table 15-10, but that doesn't preclude it from being added to a ranged weapon. If it was precluded it would have a line at the end saying so, like Brilliant Energy, Disruption, etc.
Of course, since it isn't on table 15-10, it is not subject to the footnote (#2) which shows which weapon special abilities can be passed on to its ammunition, so, under that lack, your can wack the ghostie succeffully every time with your bow, but the arrows still suffer the miss chance...
BTW, I could have sworn I looked up Ghost Touch at some point, and it didn't apply to ranged weapons. Maybe because of the lack of information that it would be passed on to ammunition...
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BTW, I could have sworn I looked up Ghost Touch at some point, and it didn't apply to ranged weapons. Maybe because of the lack of information that it would be passed on to ammunition...
After looking through the PRD, I have to agree with Callarek. Properties passed to the ammunition are indicated.
You may want to post this question on the rules forum. I think it's relevant, but I think you will get the same answer.
JP
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BTW, I could have sworn I looked up Ghost Touch at some point, and it didn't apply to ranged weapons. Maybe because of the lack of information that it would be passed on to ammunition...After looking through the PRD, I have to agree with Callarek. Properties passed to the ammunition are indicated.
You may want to post this question on the rules forum. I think it's relevant, but I think you will get the same answer.
JP
Ghost Touch is on the melee weapons chart and not on the ranged weapons chart, this is true, but certain types of ammunition can be used as melee weapons. Arrows and Bolts can both be used as improvised melee weapons as shown on page 145 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, Bullets and slings can not.
Also, ghost touch arrows have been published in several pathfinder modules, most notably the Carrion Crown module path #43.
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Still generally cheaper to buy the Ghost Salt Weapon Blanch from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
200 gp to blanch 10 arrows, which cost .5 gp, compared to 8302.5 gp for 50 +1 Ghost Touch arrows, if they even exist in a legal source. 50 blanched ghost salt arrows would cost 1002.5 gp, for a significant savings, if you even need that many.
And that ignores the apparent effects of the Abundant Ammunition spell,,,
Red dragons are immune to rouge because they are already red.
You saw that Demoyn made essentially the same joke one year ago, right?