Question on True Neutrality


Advice


In the campaign I am participating in I am playing a female noble Drow oracle who worships the demon lord (lady?) Zura. The character is the only original starting character and as characters have been replaced overtime the rest of the players have become Zura worshipers to align closer to my more powerful character. In effect the party is the entourage of my character. We quest by my mother or house mother gives us a task they want completed and we are off to go do it. These tasks put us against every alignment in the game.

My character is not a fanatical worshiper viewing Zura as an ally of the house rather than a religion in itself. The alignment of the party is not a concern as long as they are useful she has even grudgingly accepted a few elves but let them die when they failed to pull their own weight. If a foe is weaker than her she will try to bully them or attack if it is inventible, against stronger foes she has made deals with creatures of all kinds of alignments, LE, N, NG, LG, and so on. Combat is a tactical choice to her not because of the creature’s alignment or affiliation. She does observe normal Drow customs of males are inferior as are non Drow. Once in a while partaking in some cannibalism if there is a fresh meal in front of her (ate an Orc arm and chunk of green dragon neck) but it is a matter of sustenance without the taboo because of cultural conditioning rather than some perverse pleasure like other Zura worshipers.

I view the character true neutral, a creature driven by predation. My understanding of true neutral is the creature is not motivated by any ethical or moral ideals. So what do you think internets? Is my character a CE monster that will do anything to survive? A LE scion under the thumbs of her elders?


Neutral or Neutral-Evil, maybe LN but I doubt so.
I would need more information of her actions, specially about letting people die and its relationship with the "evilness" of the Drow society.

Sovereign Court

It sounds very much like your character is Neutral Evil. She only makes deals with stronger enemies and seems to use people as tools rather than making friends or valuing life intrinsically. She doesn't avoid cannibalism, and if she's "driven by predation," chances are, she's Neutral Evil. True Neutral isn't really driven by predation; it's driven by self-interest.


Neutral or Neutral-Evil, maybe LN but I doubt so.
I would need more information of her actions, specially about letting people die and its relationship with the "evilness" of the Drow society.


All things following are IMHO of course:

Even if your PC is not a fanatical worshipper (quite odd for a divine spellcaster indeed), worships Demon anyway. This is CE.

Bully Weaker foes -- > CE (often)

Deal for the purpose of win regardless who is involved (so no moral bounds) -- > NE

Sustenance Cannibalism --- N withEvil tones

I'd say CE or NE. More NE.

If is more contstructive than disctructrive, and continue to follow orders, stuck with NE, otherwise CE.


Sounds more like Neutral Evil to me as well.

EDIT: If was True Neutral I think the character would generally try to avoid violence by making deals with everyone (including the weaker opponents).


No Chaotic Evil is someone un hindered by ethical or moral Ideals. True Neutral are those that are in Harmony with the Universe... Seeking ballance with Nature, and Ballance with all things. They are not heavilly bound by Law, but also not caught up in Chaos. They are not Cancerous and Selfish with Evil, nor are they fettered by the high Ideals of Good. But they have their own Morals and Boundaries. Those that follow the GreenFaith protect the natural places and the Plants and Animals as a Paladin protects the weak. And a Neutral will attack good and evil, law and chaos to bring things in ballance if necessary if these concepts are bringing and unballance that is detrimental to the natural forces.

Your Character would be Neutral Evil.


From my way of thinking, you're PC has more than a little evil going on. Mind you, not the "i want to enslave all sentient beings and eat them like popcorn" type of evil or even "hurting people is fun and should be done whenever possible" type or the "i'm bitter and will foil the plans of others just because i can" type. But somehow the level of intrinsic respect your PC displays to others is a little too mercenary and a little too cruel to be purely self-interested.

That said, i don't see lawful. Working to advance the position of one's house does not indicate any inherent respect for order. At the same time, i don't think worshiping a demon automatically qualifies one for being chaotic. If the demon is a useful ally to your house, so be it. i'm thinking neutral evil.

But the tone of the original post suggests, perhaps, that your PC does not realize that she is evil. Its not a question of fundamental morality for her, simply that the means that she choses are definitely less relevant than the ends to which she aspires. And people who get in the way or fail to "carry enough weight" are not worthy of preservation.


I agree that your character's overtones point more towards Neutral Evil.

Personally, "True Neutral" has never been much of an appropriate PC alignment to me, as a PC and GM. The term implies an overall desire for a good-aligned lifestyle (i.e. no tyrannical rulers), but doesn't imply any desire to bring about change based on his/her own beliefs. For your general adventurer, who's generally influenced to do things based on his own morals, "true neutrality" just doesn't seem to fit.

Shadow Lodge

I agree, very much Chaotic Evil.

". . . as long as they are useful she has even grudgingly accepted a few elves but let them die when they failed to pull their own weight. If a foe is weaker than her she will try to bully them or attack if it is inventible, against stronger foes she has made deals with creatures of all kinds. . ."

You don't care if people die when they no longer serve your needs

Chaotic believe in the rule of the strongest, but that doesn't mean that they are undisciplined or can not plan or act long term, necessarily. I doubt there is a question about Evil, she is evil, taking orders from evil Drow for rewards, serving an evil religion by choice and it seems, like the house, pleased to do so for the benefits you gain, even if they are just social or political.

"The alignment of the party is not a concern as long as they are useful. . ."

So you really do not care at all about others views or beliefs, feelings, etc. . . as long as they do what you say/want. Definetly CE, though in-character, like many world class villians, you don't have to realize you are evil.

Question, do PF Drow have that stupid femdom thing going on too, or is that just a FR holdover?

Shadow Lodge

Mahorfeus wrote:
Personally, "True Neutral" has never been much of an appropriate PC alignment to me, as a PC and GM.

I completely agree. In fact, I really do not like any morally neutral alignment for most creatures with an Int and Wis score of 4+. The only exception is either a temporary result of major life changing moral/spiritual events that leaves a character truely questioning themselves, or like in Dragonlance and old school D&D where TN meant you believed very strongly in the balance of Good and Evil, and that it was your job to make sure both stayed equally powerful. To much good and even he light begins to turn against itself. To much evil and the world ends. Better to have evil so that good has something worthy of fighting.

However, most people just use neutral as an excuss not to have to care about things, and for thi reason, (and avoiding pesky alignment spells), TN tends to dip way to muc into the evil side of things, in my opinion. Like getting all the benefits and avoiding all the drawbacks of being evil.


The femdom thing goes back even further than FR. Gygax's early published AD&D modules (G1-G3 "Against the Giants" and D1-D3 "Decent to the Depths of the Earth") first featured female dominated drow noble houses and merchant clans, often allied with demons and daemons, battling for domination. Hence we have the now iconic Eclavdra: the original drow femme fatale. And it goes without saying that these adventures were definitely set in the World of Greyhawk.

Seems silly now but when i was a kid the idea of these vicious and scheming matriarchs made for great villains.

i see the point that chaotic evil tends toward the strong ruling the weak (while not so much for other chaotics), but i think that neutral evil might have little problem accepting that principle. i suppose i see chaotic alignments generally as rejecting universal moral principles first and foremost.

i'm still thinking the OP's PC is more neutral evil than anything else.


The way the Core Rule Book describes neutral there are two flavors the first being complete ethical and moral apathy and the second a commitment to neutral philosophy. It is interesting to see the variations of neutral alignment interpretation in the replies. I do think neutral is the hardest alignment to play because of personal biases.

Huan wrote:


But the tone of the original post suggests, perhaps, that your PC does not realize that she is evil. Its not a question of fundamental morality for her, simply that the means that she choses are definitely less relevant than the ends to which she aspires. And people who get in the way or fail to "carry enough weight" are not worthy of preservation.

I like this explanation. The character definitely has an evil tint to her but she is not an extreme form of evil or cartoonish evil. Thinking about it a bit more the character reminds me of Charlotte from Charlotte’s Web .

E.B. White wrote:


Charlotte is fierce, brutal, scheming, bloodthirsty—everything I don’t like. How can I learn to like her, even though she is pretty and, of course, clever?

This character is different from others I have played in the past where I build a character around alignments like a LG paladin, a CN rogue, or a NG cleric. The alignment dictates the actions of the character to some extent.

The Drow is the most organic character I have ever played, her attributes are less than optimized, she takes skills that reflect experiences within the last level, and so on. There was a time where the party was lost for a year in the Darklands and I took a few levels of barbarian to reflect the characters time away from civilization.

Beckett wrote:


Question, do PF Drow have that stupid femdom thing going on too, or is that just a FR holdover?

Pathfinder Drow is still a heavily matriarchal society but not as dominate as say Faerun Drow. Male Drow in Pathfinder can be clerics, wizards, and the like. There is a cliff note stating there is no “good” Drow in this setting as they are killed for being insane. As Golarion is less egalitarian as other settings with more misogynist cultures (Taldor or Hell for example) I think a misandrist culture like the Drow fits in better.

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