Need possible rules clarification on OgreKin characters


Advice


I posted a question a while back and did get one response to my question which was very helpful but didnt give any specific guideline or rule backing so I could argue with my DM on this. My initial statement:

I am requesting to make an Ogrekin/Orc character in a new campaign. It is not PFS by the way. We are starting out 5th lv or its equivalent. My DM is stating that if I play with the Ogrekin template, he will dock me 2 lvs making my Ogrekin fighter effectively a 3rd lv fighter. I do not have a problem with that on the bases of character level, feats, class abilities or BAB. My problem is in HD. My arguement for starting a character out 2 hd lower, especially as a front line fighter is really crippling the character.

Lets compare a 5th level orc (or human sans extra feat) fighter with a 3rd lv Ogre Kin.

The OgreKin has +6 str/+4 con/-2 int/-2 cha. +3 nat armor bonus
The orc has +2 str
Effectively, the difference is +4 str/+4 con/-2 int/-2 cha.

So two levels for a +4 str/+4 con and +3 nat armor bonus. In my opinion, it hardly seems worth it. There are no other benefits. Size remains medium.

My arguement is that the Ogrekin should be Ogre 2/Ftr 3 with no BAB or feats for the Ogrekin lvs, just hps. This makes him at least hp comparable to the orc fighter but still down 2 feats, saves, 2 BAB which pays dividends for the improved crit feats, etc.

Because the fact is that 2 extra hps per level litterly doesnt equal the 16 hps + con mod hps from the two levels until at least lv 12 (if you consider a 16 con for the orc fighter) which at that point the orc would be 14th lv.

Am I incorrect here?

[/b]Concerro very nicely replied:

The Ogrekin gets 2HD+3 fighter levels

1 Racial HD feat

3 feat, first fighter feat

4 fighter bonus feat

5 feat

That give you 5 feats.
Your racial HD give you 2 BAB
Your 3 levels of fighter give you 3 BAB
That is a total of 5 BAB [/b]

Can someone (or Concerro) kindly point me where the rules back this up please? I would love it to be the case but my DM wont change his mind without concrete rules and not opinion. Can anyone please help here?

Dark Archive

Per RAW you aren't going to find an answer. Non-standard races are simply put, not intended for players, they are meant for DM's and monsters.

In addition you are attempting to add a template on a non standard race. The Ogre-Kin template adds +1 CR to a base creature to a minimum of a CR-2 creature. Which means that the creature without class levels will be about as powerful as any typical 2-HD creature. A second level character with class levels has just that, 2-HD. Meaning that without class levels (assuming it had some OTHER way of getting a HD) a creature of 0-1 CR with this template will be about an even match for a typical level 2 PC.

If you want "concrete rules" to point to to say, "I can too have this overtly muchkin build with no drawbacks" then I am afraid to say you are going to be sorely disappointed. The only way this kind of thing is even remotely possible is at a DM's discretion.

Sorry.

Also slight nit-pick, an orc has +4 strength, not +2, and the ability scores are additive so your racial stat adjustment would look like the following. +10 str/+4 con/-4 int/-2 wis/-4 cha


From what I can see from the Ogrekin template. (It is a template, so it adds to another race. So you would be an Orc/Ogrekin Fighter 3, with all the bonuses that the orc gives aswell as the ogrekin... And if I'm wrong, then disregard what I'm saying because I have no idea what your Ogrekin is...)

You get NO bonus hd, no BAB, etc.

So you would get total: 3 BAB (from Fighter), 4 Feats (2 Fighter, 2 normal). And 3 HD total from the Fighter.


1/2 orc is a standard race, yes? So what Im attempting to do is add the Ogrekin template to a 1/2 orc.

My arguement is that the Ogrekin shouldnt take a 2hd loss just for the template. Im not asking for class levels or even monster feats. Im asking for racial HD. Right now, my DM is saying while everyone starts off at 5th lv with 5 hd, I would start off at 5th lv with the hd of a 3rd lv character period. Im asking is this correct?

Because I cant see how the Ogrekin template is worth 2 class levels all in all. Even the Beastiary stats that the monster lvs have dimishing returns as the character levels.

Again, I am not worried about losing the 2 levels so that my character would be 18 when everyone else is 20. Im worried about the loss of 2 hd worth of starting hps.

Can someone assist with this?


Taason the Black wrote:

1/2 orc is a standard race, yes? So what Im attempting to do is add the Ogrekin template to a 1/2 orc.

My arguement is that the Ogrekin shouldnt take a 2hd loss just for the template. Im not asking for class levels or even monster feats. Im asking for racial HD. Right now, my DM is saying while everyone starts off at 5th lv with 5 hd, I would start off at 5th lv with the hd of a 3rd lv character period. Im asking is this correct?

Because I cant see how the Ogrekin template is worth 2 class levels all in all. Even the Beastiary stats that the monster lvs have dimishing returns as the character levels.

Again, I am not worried about losing the 2 levels so that my character would be 18 when everyone else is 20. Im worried about the loss of 2 hd worth of starting hps.

Can someone assist with this?

Ahh, well you said Orc above, not Half-Orc. If it's just going on Half-Orc, then you should only be 1 level behind everyone else.

Edit to add: But ultimately it's up to your DM, because as others have said, non-standard races are non-standard, and require DM approval.


Ahh, well you said Orc above, not Half-Orc. If it's just going on Half-Orc, then you should only be 1 level behind everyone else.

THIS I can even live with. But can anyone give concrete rules how this would apply? I have to have something to take to my DM.

Sorry about the misprint. I assumed anything the orc is split with would make it 1/2 orc automatically.

From what I understood, the racial ability bonus/negatives would replace the orcish ones so the only benefit of the orcish blood would be basic orcish tenacity when he drops below 0 hps.

Im just having a hard time living with having 42 hps when the human fighter same ecl would have 63.

Dark Archive

I agree, a 1-HD knock for half-orc is fair, but full orc? No way, that is a 2-HD penalty I don't care if you are taking "penalties" on the mental stats, this character was and never would be good at those things in the first place. Just remember you have to keep in mind that this character will be utterly USELESS for anything other than simply hitting something with a heavy object to deal damage.

The HP loss is something you have to trade for, keep in mind you are GAINING an extra +3 to hit, damage, combat maneuvers, AND +3 AC. That is a whole lot. These are all things that also CANNOT be gained any other way than getting racial adjustments.

EDIT: As for rules to take back to your DM, I am afraid there IS nothing of the sort. Pathfinder HAS no "level adjustment" system, and if you are playing purely pathfinder material it is simply impossible. Otherwise I would advise you to check out Unearthed Arcana for 3.5.


Taason the Black wrote:
THIS I can even live with. But can anyone give concrete rules how this would apply? I have to have something to take to my DM.

The rules you want are here. Sorry, don't feel like copy/pasting the whole thing. However, as I and others have said, they're more like guidelines than rules. It's up to the DM on what is or isn't allowed, and what penalties and benefits you'll get.

Edit to Add: Actually, I'll paste the first paragraph:

Quote:
Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.


Thank you all for your assistance


why not just play a half orc fighter?

Sovereign Court

Pendagast wrote:
why not just play a half orc fighter?

As the DM he is referring to, that has been my counter argument all along.

For the discussion, it is important to know: he has the Ogrekin attribute that increases his natural AC bonus to +5 and the other one that makes him light-sensitive. +5 to AC is pretty stellar, and only offset with a -1 when in sunlight. I think it, with the other bonuses, makes up for the missing hit points, and by higher level, his CON will more than offset the missing hit points.

If I don't offset with 2 negative levels, this character will dominate at lower levels, be a hard to hit meatball by mid levels, and a beast at upper levels.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Ogrekin are not intended to be player characters. They're quite a bit more powerful than humans, especially since they're a template so they add their powerful abilities ON TOP of what a human (or whatever race the player chooses for his base creature race) can do, making them, in my opinion, even less appropriate of a choice for player characters than drow.

Negative levels are a good way to offset the ogrekin's power compared to other characters, but not a great way... especially at low level, when negative levels technically would kill the character.

If this were my game, and I had to let the player play an ogrekin, I'd have him start at 1st level and have all the other players start at 2nd or maybe even 3rd level. Or even better, I'd let the other players start with templates as well. If EVERYONE plays an ogrekin, then there's no real unbalance among the players and the GM simply has to adjust things at his end of the table, which is a lot easier (although still not EASY).

Of course, no everyone will want to play an ogrekin, so that's probably not a great solution.


The APG adds so much to the half-orc its silly. Before (at least in pathfinder) he was basically a human with darkvision.

Now with the APG feats he's waaay cool.

We have a Half-orc Cavalier (dark spooky cockatrice brooding type)
he's modeled after a "black knight theme".

Glowing red eyes from deep inside his helmet and the fact that the cavalier is #1 so good at scaring people and #2 can smell fear? waaaay cool.

The race is more about flavor, not about how many bonuses can I stack?

I wouldnt let him play the ogre kin, when he can play a half-orc with the same flavor, he can still play his character, just not with all the stacks.

Should let him look at the APG feats for half orc, like razor tusk and tough hide (or whatever it is) i think with 5 fighter levels of feats he could make his ogre kin or close to it.


Ogrekin are represented as degenerate inbred hicks in all Paizo products. It would take one hell of a mechanical advantage to entice me to play one. Even then, I think I'd pass.


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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/half-ogre

Why don't you just play the 3rd party Half-Ogre race from Tome of Secrets? Trying to slap the template onto a PC is just making things complicated, and is causing balance issues from the sound of it. It's not official Paizo material, but at the very least it's actually designed to be used as a PC race, making it considerably easier to use.

You'd lose the Orcish part of the character, but as far having a mix of Orc/Human/Ogre blood, it'd make things a lot less complicated.

Just a suggestion.


Pathfiner uses CR adjudstment instead of LA adjustment: so Pathfinder considers LA of Ogrekin +1.
DM should make you a 4th level Fighter instead of a 3rd.

Remember you mutations are random: you had just as much chance to get a weak benefit and a strong penalty.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If all you're interested in is +4 Str, +4 Con, and +3 Natural Armor, play a multiclass druid 3/fighter 2. You get 5 feats, and can cast barkskin, bear's endurance, and bull's strength on yourself. Also, you get some extra skill points, a boost to Will Saves, some additional spell flexiblity, etc. etc.

You can take Craft Wondrous Item as a feat and make yourself one of those nifty belts, and an amulet, and get those bonuses constantly.

You can even make some for your allies and be a real boon to your party!

Contributor

If you want the RP benefits of being an ogrekin without the mechanical imbalance, just make up some traits like "Ogrekin Atavist" or "Adopted by Ogres" to explain how this otherwise normal human is a member of an ogrekin family. Either mom was a human taken as a bride by the ogre or ogrekin but was already pregnant (or fooled around with another abductee), or else, for some strange quirk of genetics, the ogrekin came out almost completely human. Look at the rules for backing Tieflings down a notch and come up with something similar.

Of course, the ogrekin's kids will probably be full ogrekin due to his tainted blood, but the nastiness mostly passed him by.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

If you want the RP benefits of being an ogrekin without the mechanical imbalance, just make up some traits like "Ogrekin Atavist" or "Adopted by Ogres" to explain how this otherwise normal human is a member of an ogrekin family. Either mom was a human taken as a bride by the ogre or ogrekin but was already pregnant (or fooled around with another abductee), or else, for some strange quirk of genetics, the ogrekin came out almost completely human. Look at the rules for backing Tieflings down a notch and come up with something similar.

Of course, the ogrekin's kids will probably be full ogrekin due to his tainted blood, but the nastiness mostly passed him by.

Using tiefling rules isnt an bad idea...use the mechanic and call it Ogre kin.

I still dont see why you cant use the half orc mechanics and say hes half ogre/ogre kin.

If he wants to be large instead of medium, and you are using traits, make him burn both traits in exchange for a large half-orc by mechanics, and call it a half ogre.

He'd get his +4 str that way (if he used the half orcs +2 to anything for str)

He could still get things like toothy/razortusk and do some big boy biting as well!

of course the teifling thing works for all sorts of mutated people, but still useable as PC race.

Sovereign Court

Mahorfeus wrote:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/half-ogre

Why don't you just play the 3rd party Half-Ogre race from Tome of Secrets? Trying to slap the template onto a PC is just making things complicated, and is causing balance issues from the sound of it. It's not official Paizo material, but at the very least it's actually designed to be used as a PC race, making it considerably easier to use.

You'd lose the Orcish part of the character, but as far having a mix of Orc/Human/Ogre blood, it'd make things a lot less complicated.

Just a suggestion.

While I'd still rather stick to Paizo published/more balanced races, I'm allowing the Half-Ogre. It will give him the slightly exaggerated stats he was aiming for without blowing the power level through the roof. It also closes the door on the level adjustment arguement which never balances itself out. I'll just have to make sure he regrets not having that Orc Ferocity, at lease once. :)

Liberty's Edge

Zape wrote:
... regrets not having that Orc Ferocity, at lease once. :)

Yah no kidding, at low- to mid-levels Ferocity is the bomb... saved our Cleric of Gorum more times than I can count. For a guy so concerned with being crippled by a lack of HD, not sure how he can pass this up for a STR buff that can be had from Manuals or belts down the road, sans the crippling Forrest Gump nerf.


James Jacobs wrote:

Ogrekin are not intended to be player characters. They're quite a bit more powerful than humans, especially since they're a template so they add their powerful abilities ON TOP of what a human (or whatever race the player chooses for his base creature race) can do, making them, in my opinion, even less appropriate of a choice for player characters than drow.

Negative levels are a good way to offset the ogrekin's power compared to other characters, but not a great way... especially at low level, when negative levels technically would kill the character.

If this were my game, and I had to let the player play an ogrekin, I'd have him start at 1st level and have all the other players start at 2nd or maybe even 3rd level. Or even better, I'd let the other players start with templates as well. If EVERYONE plays an ogrekin, then there's no real unbalance among the players and the GM simply has to adjust things at his end of the table, which is a lot easier (although still not EASY).

Of course, no everyone will want to play an ogrekin, so that's probably not a great solution.

While I can understand the reasoning in your post, I find myself disagreeing with it. I've been playing an Ogrekin dwarf in a game that runs twice a week for nearly a month now, and thus far, there has been no problems (I asked the DM to please let me know the moment my character started stealing the spotlight, and so far nothing). In fact, the template has been a heavy burden for my character, which is originally why I picked it; most people we encounter look down on him for being a freak of nature. At best he's mistake best ignored and avoided, and at worst he's an abomination that must be run out of town. Many merchants and venders refuse to deal with him, and oftentimes he is mistaken for a leper. It's been really fun.

Mechanically, the various bonuses the template offers have been extremely helpful, but not at all game breaking. The other players don't seem to mind my characters unusually high strength (22) nor his inhuman toughness (Con 20). I haven't been dominating in combat; the fighter and paladin continue to shine in this regard.

While I think the template is powerful, I don't believe it to be so bad that it should not be allowed (I speak of mechanics only. If a DM doesn't want one in his campaign for other reasons, I can understand). Rather, the the stigma of being filthy inbred swine can be a great way to offer role-playing opportunities. Indeed, my characters goal is to find a "cure" for his condition, and has spawned a few side quests in the process.

Just my opinion, of course. I think the template is powerful, but not so much as to outshine the other players.


Why not go with the +2 LA for the first 8-10 CL or so and then drop it to +1 LA when it's not as imbalancing anymore so he can make up one of the HD?

With the kind of stat and armor bonuses you are getting, I think 2 HD at low levels is a fine trade. You can't take quite as much but you can deal quite a bit more and you're less likely to get hit anyway.


While I'd still rather stick to Paizo published/more balanced races, I'm allowing the Half-Ogre. It will give him the slightly exaggerated stats he was aiming for without blowing the power level through the roof. It also closes the door on the level adjustment arguement which never balances itself out. I'll just have to make sure he regrets not having that Orc Ferocity, at lease once. :)

I wasnt going after the slightly exaggerated stats. I was creating the character after Chief Ggruch from The Orc King by RA Salvatore. The character was 1/2 ogre and 1/2 orc with the greataxe. I thought it would be challenging from the standpoint that I am one of the very few in my group that actually roleplays and I would have to play the character very intellectually limited. I did not roll the +2 additional natural armor nor the bright light adversion. These were both rolled by another DM in the same party via a phone call. So I very easily could have had a real sucky merit and a really crippling flaw. It just so happens luck was on my side for once.

Im not a player that rule lawyers things. I believe the game is to have fun and to run with it. Its bad enough that the Pathfinder system is so very limited due to so few products out yet but when everyone points to rules when none exist and then say its up to the DM, it makes it really hard. What is wrong with having a character that is physically superior to the average character but inferior to all characters? Nothing because a good DM cripples him with Will saves and takes him out of the fight. Ive seen players metagame to death where running the game isnt even enjoyable. Certain players long for the I WIN button....Ive never been one of those.

So I found a template in a published Pathfinder book. I made it straight by the rules (actually less because I was told that I couldnt use anything orc wise as the Ogre would overrule everything Orcish which is inaccurate but whatever). My arguement was trying to make him in a way that wouldnt cripple him as a front line fighter and limit his survivability at low levels when he would be everyones whipping boy for being a 1/2 Ogre freak.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Sayer_of_Nay wrote:

While I can understand the reasoning in your post, I find myself disagreeing with it. I've been playing an Ogrekin dwarf in a game that runs twice a week for nearly a month now, and thus far, there has been no problems (I asked the DM to please let me know the moment my character started stealing the spotlight, and so far nothing). In fact, the template has been a heavy burden for my character, which is originally why I picked it; most people we encounter look down on him for being a freak of nature. At best he's mistake best ignored and avoided, and at worst he's an abomination that must be run out of town. Many merchants and venders refuse to deal with him, and oftentimes he is mistaken for a leper. It's been really fun.

Mechanically, the various bonuses the template offers have been extremely helpful, but not at all game breaking. The other players don't seem to mind my characters unusually high strength (22) nor his inhuman toughness (Con 20). I haven't been dominating in combat; the fighter and paladin continue to shine in this regard.

While I think the template is powerful, I don't believe it to be so bad that it should not be allowed (I speak of mechanics only. If a DM doesn't want one in his campaign for other reasons, I can understand). Rather, the the stigma of being filthy inbred swine can be a great way to offer role-playing opportunities. Indeed, my characters goal is to find a "cure" for his condition, and has spawned a few side quests in the process.

Just my opinion, of course. I think the template is powerful, but not so much as to outshine the other players.

That's cool... but it sounds like you're not playing a fully optimized ogrekin (you don't mention your character's class, but am I right in assuming it's one that doesn't really rely on the ogrekin's strengths? like maybe a spellcaster or a rogue?), and it also sounds like you have a GM who's really good at keeping the downside of your race in social situations at the forefront of the game, and it ALSO sounds like you have a pretty awesome and accommodating group.

That's not something we can depend on for all players of ogrekins, which is why it's not recommended for players. More precisely... it's not recommended for inexperienced players. Sounds to me like your group is handling the ogrekin exactly right, to be honest.

That said, I'd love to hear how the group would react to a fighter or paladin ogrekin...

Sovereign Court

Ogrekin players suffer, as a concept, from The Bladesinger Quandrary: balancing mechanical advantages with RP disadvantages only works in certain styles of game.


James Jacobs wrote:
Sayer_of_Nay wrote:


That's cool... but it sounds like you're not playing a fully optimized ogrekin (you don't mention your character's class, but am I right in assuming it's one that doesn't really rely on the ogrekin's strengths? like maybe a spellcaster or a rogue?), and it also sounds like you have a GM who's really good at keeping the downside of your race in social situations at the forefront of the game, and it...

Fully optimized is in the eye of the beholder, I think. My orgekin is a rogue 4/wizard 1/ Unseen seer 2, and I'd say that he is fully optimized for what I intended when I created him: an ugly, barroom brawler who goes around the law to get what he wants. The high strength modifier synergizes well with the sneak attacks, and the ability to cast 2nd level spells is icing on the cake. I don't think that it is less optimized because he isn't a fighter or paladin. In fact, with my strength and high constitution, I have often served as a frontline fighter. Again, this is what I intended when I first created him. He is a thug who relies on his muscle and innate toughness to see him through a problem.

You are correct about my group, though. They are good people, and the DM is both open minded and fair.


Taason the Black wrote:

I posted a question a while back and did get one response to my question which was very helpful but didnt give any specific guideline or rule backing so I could argue with my DM on this. My initial statement:

I am requesting to make an Ogrekin/Orc character in a new campaign. It is not PFS by the way. We are starting out 5th lv or its equivalent. My DM is stating that if I play with the Ogrekin template, he will dock me 2 lvs making my Ogrekin fighter effectively a 3rd lv fighter. I do not have a problem with that on the bases of character level, feats, class abilities or BAB. My problem is in HD. My arguement for starting a character out 2 hd lower, especially as a front line fighter is really crippling the character.

Lets compare a 5th level orc (or human sans extra feat) fighter with a 3rd lv Ogre Kin.

The OgreKin has +6 str/+4 con/-2 int/-2 cha. +3 nat armor bonus
The orc has +2 str
Effectively, the difference is +4 str/+4 con/-2 int/-2 cha.

So two levels for a +4 str/+4 con and +3 nat armor bonus. In my opinion, it hardly seems worth it. There are no other benefits. Size remains medium.

My arguement is that the Ogrekin should be Ogre 2/Ftr 3 with no BAB or feats for the Ogrekin lvs, just hps. This makes him at least hp comparable to the orc fighter but still down 2 feats, saves, 2 BAB which pays dividends for the improved crit feats, etc.

Because the fact is that 2 extra hps per level litterly doesnt equal the 16 hps + con mod hps from the two levels until at least lv 12 (if you consider a 16 con for the orc fighter) which at that point the orc would be 14th lv.

Am I incorrect here?

[/b]Concerro very nicely replied:

The Ogrekin gets 2HD+3 fighter levels

1 Racial HD feat

3 feat, first fighter feat

4 fighter bonus feat

5 feat

That give you 5 feats.
Your racial HD give you 2 BAB
Your 3 levels of fighter give you 3 BAB
That is a total of 5 BAB [/b]

Can someone (or Concerro) kindly point me where the rules back this up please? I would love it to be...

I think in my last reply I said you got racial HD. I did not notice the Ogrekin was template.

"Creating an Ogrekin" tells you exactly what an OgreKin gets. The Ogrekin in the book is only a sample build. The feats it has are from the human race feature, and the fighter levels. You will notice it only has 4 feats as a level 2 fight.
A level 2 human fighter also only has four feats
LEVEL 1
1 human
1 feat that every one gets
1 Bonus Fighter feat
LEVEL 2
2 Bonus Fighter feat.

Ask you DM if the Ogre-kin gives more feats then why does a human with the template and one without it have the same number of feats. :)

PS:I apologize for my error.


Dont Templates usually add their bonuses on top of a base creatures existing ones unless the Template makes an Exception?

So a human ogrekin would get all the human benefits.

That Said i think letting players play one is a bad Idea, I assume Most who do would want the 'able to wield large size weapons' thing. Then you end up with Enlarged person wielding a huge greatsword sillyness.

Best not to go there.

Though Without that Ability or playing something that doesnt emphasise the ogrekins abilities it might not be so bad.


Mojorat wrote:

Dont Templates usually add their bonuses on top of a base creatures existing ones unless the Template makes an Exception?

So a human ogrekin would get all the human benefits.

That Said i think letting players play one is a bad Idea, I assume Most who do would want the 'able to wield large size weapons' thing. Then you end up with Enlarged person wielding a huge greatsword sillyness.

Best not to go there.

Though Without that Ability or playing something that doesnt emphasise the ogrekins abilities it might not be so bad.

My ogrekin has the thick skin thing along with the weak mind mutation. The using larger weapon thing could simply be ruled out, rather than banning the template, if you were of a mind to use it.


Mojorat wrote:

Dont Templates usually add their bonuses on top of a base creatures existing ones unless the Template makes an Exception?

So a human ogrekin would get all the human benefits.

That Said i think letting players play one is a bad Idea, I assume Most who do would want the 'able to wield large size weapons' thing. Then you end up with Enlarged person wielding a huge greatsword sillyness.

Best not to go there.

Though Without that Ability or playing something that doesnt emphasise the ogrekins abilities it might not be so bad.

Yes, templates normally add on without taking away.

Sovereign Court

Taason the Black wrote:


I wasnt going after the slightly exaggerated stats. I was creating the character after Chief Ggruch from The Orc King by RA Salvatore. The character was 1/2 ogre and 1/2 orc with the greataxe. I thought it would be challenging from the standpoint that I am one of the very few in my group that actually roleplays and I would have to play the character very intellectually limited.

If role playing was all you wanted, you should have taken the original suggestion of use the Half-Orc and call him an Ogrekin. Give him high physical and weak mental stats and you're done. If you want to play a midget, I wouldn't make you go out and find a "Vertically Challenged Person" template, either.

Taason the Black wrote:


So I found a template in a published Pathfinder book. I made it straight by the rules...

The bestiary rules are purely designed for NPCs to challenge the party. It's not possible to create any character using them without DM fiat. There is nothing balanced or fair about applying templates to characters, though it can certainly add fun when it is a part of what happens to characters in the game.


Zape wrote:
If role playing was all you wanted, you should have taken the original suggestion of use the Half-Orc and call him an Ogrekin. Give him high physical and weak mental stats and you're done. If you want to play a midget, I wouldn't make you go out and find a "Vertically Challenged Person" template, either.

Firstly, the character I was baseing him on in the book wasnt a 1/2 orc. He was larger than an orc by almost a full head and specifically said to be 1/2 ogre 1/2 orc. Add to the fact he was strong enough to split an orc warrior in two with one hit holding a greataxe in one hand. A half orc is no stronger than a normal human or what a normal human could be. I didnt want to make a watered down 1/2 orc. I either played the character as he was or not at all. Thus, its not at all.

Secondly, yes there were benefits that I was aware of in the enhanced strength and enhanced con...all of which are strictly melee based. But again, any DM worth his weight simply removes the blockhead with a simple charm spell and its done. The guy had exactly 0 in reflex and will saves. This would be a very simple way to do deal with it if it became a problem.

For every strength there is a weakness...and ways to exploit that weakness. The name of the game is having fun...not rule lawyering with a extremely limited system.


Taason the Black wrote:
Zape wrote:
If role playing was all you wanted, you should have taken the original suggestion of use the Half-Orc and call him an Ogrekin. Give him high physical and weak mental stats and you're done. If you want to play a midget, I wouldn't make you go out and find a "Vertically Challenged Person" template, either.

Firstly, the character I was baseing him on in the book wasnt a 1/2 orc. He was larger than an orc by almost a full head and specifically said to be 1/2 ogre 1/2 orc. Add to the fact he was strong enough to split an orc warrior in two with one hit holding a greataxe in one hand. A half orc is no stronger than a normal human or what a normal human could be. I didnt want to make a watered down 1/2 orc. I either played the character as he was or not at all. Thus, its not at all.

Secondly, yes there were benefits that I was aware of in the enhanced strength and enhanced con...all of which are strictly melee based. But again, any DM worth his weight simply removes the blockhead with a simple charm spell and its done. The guy had exactly 0 in reflex and will saves. This would be a very simple way to do deal with it if it became a problem.

For every strength there is a weakness...and ways to exploit that weakness. The name of the game is having fun...not rule lawyering with a extremely limited system.

a half orc could start the game with a 20 strength, have him wield a dwarf axe thats 1d10+5,, without any feats that going to come awfully close to chopping an orc warrior in half with one swing.

you dont have to be be in the "large" size category to be tall. wdarves are medium and so are elves, they are FEET apart in hieght. in this case you are talking FOOT.
So make him 7 or 8 feet tall. he'd still fall in the "medium category"
Strength wise youd be fine...
make him a barbarian and get some rage and that strength becomes 24 hes swinging for +7 damage with his dwarf axe he's going to chop an orc warrior in half EVERY time he swings.
throw in a little power attack and hes a dead ringer for the character your describing.

you said he was half ogre and half orc. so why focus on the ogre portion of it that can easily be built in with feats and stats.

with a 20 point build,
that halforc/ogre would looks like this:

Str 20 (after +2)
con 15
dex 10
Int 8
Wis 8
Chr 10

with APG there are ALL sorts of FUN half orc specific feats you can take to make this character great and unique.

20 strength (24 when raging) is HUGE strength

ogre kin get +6 to strength, that doesnt guarantee every ogrekin a 24-26 strength, or whatever you were hoping for.

this "halforc/ogre" I just showed you would have been an ogrekin built on a half orc with a 14 base strength.

ogre kin have to take a weakness, so the guant/frail one cancels out the +4 racial con bonus (leaving you with a 15, still not bad)

APG has the half orc trait toothy, which you could take, which would be the same or better to the ogrekins "over sized jaw"

If you really wanted to have that great axe in one hand deal, see if your DM will let you take the monkey grip feat, that lets you wield large sized weapons without penalty.

and bingo, there is your guy.

you could even drop the int and wis down to 7 if you wanted a few more points to add to chr to make the character more intimidating, or squeeze more out of constitution.


Heya pen, just wanted to say that build is a nice idea for a Baddie (minor) or a right hand goon. I might be stealing that at some point and time.


Zape wrote:
Taason the Black wrote:


I wasnt going after the slightly exaggerated stats. I was creating the character after Chief Ggruch from The Orc King by RA Salvatore. The character was 1/2 ogre and 1/2 orc with the greataxe. I thought it would be challenging from the standpoint that I am one of the very few in my group that actually roleplays and I would have to play the character very intellectually limited.

If role playing was all you wanted, you should have taken the original suggestion of use the Half-Orc and call him an Ogrekin. Give him high physical and weak mental stats and you're done. If you want to play a midget, I wouldn't make you go out and find a "Vertically Challenged Person" template, either.

Hah. I played a small sized human once in 3.5. I just gave him the small size stuff and adjusted his stats as you would if you sized a monster from medium to small.


Taason the Black wrote:
Zape wrote:
If role playing was all you wanted, you should have taken the original suggestion of use the Half-Orc and call him an Ogrekin. Give him high physical and weak mental stats and you're done. If you want to play a midget, I wouldn't make you go out and find a "Vertically Challenged Person" template, either.

Firstly, the character I was baseing him on in the book wasnt a 1/2 orc. He was larger than an orc by almost a full head and specifically said to be 1/2 ogre 1/2 orc. Add to the fact he was strong enough to split an orc warrior in two with one hit holding a greataxe in one hand. A half orc is no stronger than a normal human or what a normal human could be. I didnt want to make a watered down 1/2 orc. I either played the character as he was or not at all. Thus, its not at all.

Secondly, yes there were benefits that I was aware of in the enhanced strength and enhanced con...all of which are strictly melee based. But again, any DM worth his weight simply removes the blockhead with a simple charm spell and its done. The guy had exactly 0 in reflex and will saves. This would be a very simple way to do deal with it if it became a problem.

For every strength there is a weakness...and ways to exploit that weakness. The name of the game is having fun...not rule lawyering with a extremely limited system.

I can understand wanting to play a certain concept, but I think you're going about it the wrong way. The Half-Orc race is half orc, half human - slapping on the Ogrekin template will also give him Ogre blood, but it's also a part of his human blood. Half Orc/Ogre would be an entirely different race with characteristics completely different from the choices PF provides. The only logical way to emulate it would be to create a custom race.

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