RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Last week, Sean told you we'd give you a sneak peek of the Round 2 rules, and here they are:
In no more than 450 words, design an archetype for one of the 11 core classes in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or the 6 base classes in the Advanced Player's Guide. Note that we mean actual archetypes, not new domains, subdomains, alternate classes or subclasses (such as the antipaladin), sorcerer bloodlines, or wizard schools. Don't know what an archetype is? Check out page 72 of the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide, or start reading here in the free online Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PRD). There is no twist in Round 2! We'll reveal the full rules next week, but first things first—you can't compete unless you pass Round 1!
Last week, Sean told you we'd give you a sneak peek of the Round 2 rules, and here they are:
Yaaaaaaay!
In no more than 450 words,
Eeeeep!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Eeeeep!
I did the same. I had prepared a few just in case. I think the smallest was at 600, rest were under 750. I will just wait until the top 32 are announced before I make any changes.
This is going to be tough. I wordcounted some of the archetypes in the PRD; the Rogue and Barbarian archetypes come in well beneath (though, to be fair, the Barbarian gets a long list of new rage powers as well), but Paladin, Bard and Ranger are mostly around 500-600 words each.
I think the key skill for Round 2 will be knowing when to focus on solid, serviceable mechanics and not shoot too high.
Wow, 450 words only! Thats going to be a tough one. Well lets see if I can nail my idea out of the park in 450 or less. Good luck every one in passing in the first round and best of luck to those that make it to round 2.
I think the key skill for Round 2 will be knowing when to focus on solid, serviceable mechanics and not shoot too high.
+1
Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated!
Any hints as to whether "originality" is for the entire entry as a whole, how the archetype is put together or whether each individual swap (bullet replacement) has to be original content?
Curiosity.
Looking at the submission for the Wondrous Item, I would be interesting to see what can be fit into 450 words.
That's actually a much more generous wordcount for the archetype than I'd been expecting. Glad to hear it; I was worried we'd be stuck reading 32 entries of similar length as the barbarian ATs from the APG. Not that shorter is bad, of course, but I do want to see people have the space to get as creative as they want/need to.
450 words = half a page
To give some context or a standard of comparison using the existing APG archetypes, it looks like all of the barbarian, druid, and rogue archetypes are under 450 words, whereas the bard ones are all over. Most of the bard ones are in the 500-600 range but Sandman is over 800.
Fighters mostly go under 450, but two (polearm and phalanx I think?) go over.
Monk archetypes mostly go over 450.
Paladin archetypes split about half over and half under.
Most of the ranger archetypes are far over the 450, with at least two that I checked going over 900.
None of this is meant to imply anything other than give a rough idea of what 450 words as an archetype looks like.
If you don't go all out, you can pull in under 450, but I doubt we will be seeing anything new like Cleric or Wizard or Sorcerer archetypes because you would have to basically rewrite the whole class since they are entirely based on spellcasting and then their domain/bloodline/arcane school. But maybe some one could do it.
Here's a question: are campaign/religion/etc. specific archetypes a good idea or a bad idea?
For example, if something like the Red Mantis Assassin worked reasonably well as an Archetype instead of a PClass. (Which the RMA doesn't. But let's pretend something did.)
The existing archetypes don't include them, but APG content is meant to be campaign-agnostic so it's hard to draw a clear conclusion from that.
I think Golarion-specific archetypes are going to be allowed by the R2 rules.
Last week, Sean told you we'd give you a sneak peek of the Round 2 rules, and here they are:
In no more than 450 words, design an archetype for one of the 11 core classes in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or the 6 base classes in the Advanced Player's Guide. Note that we mean actual archetypes, not new domains, subdomains, alternate classes or subclasses (such as the antipaladin), sorcerer bloodlines, or wizard schools. Don't know what an archetype is? Check out page 72 of the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide, or start reading here in the free online Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PRD). There is no twist in Round 2! We'll reveal the full rules next week, but first things first—you can't compete unless you pass Round 1!
Well, I've come up with 56 ideas so far. I've asked my friends to each choose 3 they would like to see fully developed, and I'll choose 5 to fully develop. I love all 56 ideas, though, and will probably develop them all. I wonder if Paizo plans to put out a book of Archetypes in the future :P
Ken
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Well, I've come up with 56 ideas so far. I've asked my friends to each choose 3 they would like to see fully developed, and I'll choose 5 to fully develop. I love all 56 ideas, though, and will probably develop them all. I wonder if Paizo plans to put out a book of Archetypes in the future :P
Ken
Wowzers! I made 4 before the rules came out. All over 600 and not doing anymore work till the 32 are announced.
I think Golarion-specific archetypes are going to be allowed by the R2 rules.
This would be awesome as those are by far the easiest ones to think up!
Wowzers! I made 4 before the rules came out. All over 600 and not doing anymore work till the 32 are announced.Well, I've come up with 56 ideas so far. I've asked my friends to each choose 3 they would like to see fully developed, and I'll choose 5 to fully develop. I love all 56 ideas, though, and will probably develop them all. I wonder if Paizo plans to put out a book of Archetypes in the future :P
Ken
Well, these are just ideas so far. Only actually detailed one, and yeah, it was way over 600 words. Most are only a paragraph of ideas with a couple "abilities" briefly described.
I'd say about 30 are really good. Maybe 10 will be worth submitting for the contest.
Hopefully I can do the ideas justice in my writing :P
I think Golarion-specific archetypes are going to be allowed by the R2 rules.This would be awesome as those are by far the easiest ones to think up!
No kidding, especially after looking at the ones in the Inner Sea Primer.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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No kidding, especially after looking at the ones in the Inner Sea Primer.
GAH!!! Make me go and pay monies for internet where I can actually download. I have been fiending to read that, now I must procure it from my downloads. I normally can't since I use work comp and only internet in the area is $50 a month for crap service or $25 for a week trial.
Inner Sea Primer Not to be confused with the Inner Sea World Guide. It does have some really cool world specific alternate class features, the picture of the Aldori swordlord is one of the best I've seen.
The Archetype I worked on today is only 325 words. I think it might be the one I'm submitting if I get that far. But who knows? Maybe I'll be inspired yet again. I have about a dozen archetypes typed up, and a few ideas for some others as well.
Are we allowed to "borrow" from existing Pathfinder material, or does the entire entry need to be original?
Could we for instance use:
Cited from Mountain Druid, but for Monkey Boy :)
Spire Walker (Ex): At 4th level, a monkey boy does not lose her Dexterity bonus when climbing. A monkey boy is immune to altitude sickness and ignores the effects of a cold climate as if under the effects of endure elements. This ability replaces resist nature’s lure.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Inner Sea Primer Not to be confused with the Inner Sea World Guide. It does have some really cool world specific alternate class features, the picture of the Aldori swordlord is one of the best I've seen.
Prime is in My Downloads and the Guide will be part of a one of my subscriptions.
I have made archetypes for four classes so far, only one of which is in the APG.
Are we allowed to "borrow" from existing Pathfinder material, or does the entire entry need to be original?
Could we for instance use:
Cited from Mountain Druid, but for Monkey Boy :)
Spire Walker (Ex): At 4th level, a monkey boy does not lose her Dexterity bonus when climbing. A monkey boy is immune to altitude sickness and ignores the effects of a cold climate as if under the effects of endure elements. This ability replaces resist nature’s lure.
Restating rule that already exist is SKR's #24, so I would think not. However you could put the appropriate reference in there, or reword to make sure it stays balanced. Personally I think the former is risky if its not from the core book, the latter borders on copyright and both risk being too close to lack of originality.
I hadn't really given much thought to how short this is. I just checked the bard archetypes (which include a couple of my personal favorites) and only one- the Savage Scald- is under 450. Most float somewhere around 480-490.
The Archivist has 491 by my count; its longest ability is "Lamentable Belaborment". There's a pretty great joke there but my precaffeinated brain can't seem to pull it together.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The Archivist has 491 by my count; its longest ability is "Lamentable Belaborment". There's a pretty great joke there but my precaffeinated brain can't seem to pull it together.
You are already the victim of "Lamentable Belaborment"...
Mr. Reynolds #24 is for "Wondrous Item" submission, and I senses it was for the contestant's own sake... brevity, word count and all.
RAW is assumed "fact". And, we should know our facts.
As to the "shouldn't be in a superstar submission" (paraphrasing), I took it to refers to an item that basically steals a class's ability, thereby cheating the class, and making the item a "class feature in a can".
But, in Round 2 we're creating archetypes (classes, per se). A follow up question would be, if it works exactly the same except for the name of the archtype... does it require the entire description?
If the answer is "no", that's fine. I'm just asking for clarification.
Thanks, for the call-out however.
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A few ideas on the easiest ways to archetype the APG classes.
-replace bomb (moderate)
-replace mutagen (moderate)
-replace domain with another ability (east)
-replace solo tactics and teamwork feats (easy)
-replace moster lore, bane and greater bane, exploit weakness (easy)
-replace judgements (moderate)
-new curses (very easy)
-new base forms (easy)
-new evolutions (very easy)
-new familiars (very easy)
-new patrons (easy)
These just happen to be my ideas and the difficulty is just an opinion. And some of them could easily be combined. I dislike the summoner and don't allow players in my group to use it without my homebrew modifications.
Archetyping Wizard and Cleric is perfectly possible - just swap out the domain powers/channeling (Cleric) or school powers/bonus feats (Wizard). No need to touch spellcasting at all.
Armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, skills, maybe even saves and BAB could be fair game...
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Archetyping Wizard and Cleric is perfectly possible - just swap out the domain powers/channeling (Cleric) or school powers/bonus feats (Wizard). No need to touch spellcasting at all.Armor proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, skills, maybe even saves and BAB could be fair game...
I don't think so. The archetypes in APG are all about swapping out stuff that you gain as you progress in levels - a Savage Barbarian gets bonuses while fighting naked, but he doesn't lose any armor proficiencies.
If you swap BAB or saves you're in a variant class/new class territory.
SKR's example of a scholar-monk did just that. Swapped out proficiencies to gain additional class skills. I would avoid changing BAB and saves myself but that's not to say they are off limits by any mean. An RPS Superstar could probably manage it without losing the flavor of a class.
Say you remove a druids spellcasting for a full BAB and and perhaps earlier access to wild shape. It would certainly be more druid-like than a fighter or ranger who gained wild shape.
I hope it's not lost on anyone that this is the exact discussion I'd suggested under the "Archetype Mechanics" thread.
But, somehow it was taboo then... yet add Jedi mind trick (at whatever level) and BAM!
Everyone's talking archetype mechanics. Ahhh, warms my heart.
To be fair, you were asking if it was a good idea to discuss it. What's happening here is, people are just discussing it. It's a different discussion. =p
I (like to THINK I'm) not the type to police every thread looking for objectionable content. As in, even though he can be very opinionated, you don't ACTUALLY need Mr Quimby's permission to do anything here. But for the little it's worth, I don't think this is a bad idea at all; this is actually a lot broader and more vague than what I thought you were talking about (though still good constructive stuff), so sorry if I misread you.
Quite alright, Mr. Quimby.
I'm more amused, than anything else. Human nature dicatates that the discussion would occur. Apparently, opposition is also part of human nature.
So, when told/asked to discuss... "No, thank you."
But, when left to one's own devices, they spill their guts... Reminds me of "Inception".
As to how broad or vague the discussion is... or remains, let's give it some time.
:)
That's about what I was thinking; it was probably just a matter of time. :)
Zooming out to a more conceptual level for a moment, my impression of archetypes so far is that the best are also the boldest. I think they're a great chance to do something which might not appeal to every player; for those who do dig it, awesome, and for those who don't, there's still the base class (which is just like the archetype but without the 'bad' parts ;)).
It's a chance to help a class appeal to more people than it did before; simpler versions, more challenging versions, darker version, more whimsical versions, more or less magic, more or less realism, more or less randomness, etc, etc. Or, yes, specific regional/racial/cultural archetypes.
Part of me wonders if this is bad advice for a popular vote.. you know, I think it might not be. You don't have to be EVERYONE's favorite to pass round 2, you just have to be liked by a strong percentage, right?
That's about what I was thinking; it was probably just a matter of time. :)
Zooming out to a more conceptual level for a moment, my impression of archetypes so far is that the best are also the boldest. I think they're a great chance to do something which might not appeal to every player; for those who do dig it, awesome, and for those who don't, there's still the base class (which is just like the archetype but without the 'bad' parts ;)).
It's a chance to help a class appeal to more people than it did before; simpler versions, more challenging versions, darker version, more whimsical versions, more or less magic, more or less realism, more or less randomness, etc, etc. Or, yes, specific regional/racial/cultural archetypes.
Part of me wonders if this is bad advice for a popular vote.. you know, I think it might not be. You don't have to be EVERYONE's favorite to pass round 2, you just have to be liked by a strong percentage, right?
And not necessarily even that. Let's say the APG archetypes were a hypothetical Superstar round: I'd probably never play an archivist or detective, but nevertheless, I think that they're such a cool riff on a bard I'd be hard pressed not to vote for them just based on originality. (Unless I had so few votes that I wouldn't have room to vote for both the 'cool, but I wouldn't play them' entries and the 'OMG< rolling up a character JUST to use this archetypes stuff' entries, like the arcane duelist or zen archer. But hopefully we'll have a more comfortable number of votes in round 2 this year than we did last...)
I am so excited about this year's competition. I just hope I make it to round 2 for I think of all the rounds, round 2 should be one of the most entertaining and is the one I am looking forward to the most.
I'll be honest, not sure how the voting exactly works... much like the electoral college situation.
I think the key is to be liked "enough"... by as many people as possible. 32 enter, 16 win... you just have to be better than average among your peers.
Issue is, the more complex your archetype (personality, character development), the more story/hook it requires in those 450 words.
And now, with everything being "original"... you got some 'splaining to do, Lucy!
It's all about finesse and striking the right balance... can the reader imagine a character just like this.
So far I've been very surprised how much I can really fit into 450 words. I may yet have to do some trimming, but I've got a good 150 words yet.
Now here's hoping I advance to at least the second round this year. I don't know what I'll do with these ideas if I don't. ^^;
I hope it's not lost on anyone that this is the exact discussion I'd suggested under the "Archetype Mechanics" thread.
...
Pun intended...
What "X" to swap out for what "Y"? Or is it not that difficult?
I think people were/are worried about what "Y" might be. I was worried about clicking on Thomas' spoilers above and seeing one of my ideas there. Even though they were my ideas it would be hard to later convince someone I did not yoink them from Thomas. I think adding new abilities should be avoided until after the 32 have entered round 2. Even what things are swappable might be avoided, just because I think it will prove to be a good test to thin out the weeds. IMHO, round 2 has lots of really good folks and lots of not so good. The middle road seems mostly absent.
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I think people were/are worried about what "Y" might be. I was worried about clicking on Thomas' spoilers above and seeing one of my ideas there. Even though they were my ideas it would be hard to later convince someone I did not yoink them from Thomas.
I dont't think my spoilers would affect the contest. Most were taken from other threads I found trawling around this site and a few others.
But I did forget one APG class. The one that interests me the most...
-replace mount and associated abilities (easy)
-replace tactician abilites (easy)
-replace the challenges (moderate)
Changing or removing the core abilities of each class changes the basic feel for each.
But writing a new cavalier order isn't writing an archetype.
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Just to clarify, it seems to me that none of the extant material listed under "Archetypes" for the Wizard would have qualified for Round 2, as those are all new schools, not archetypes.
Right?
Just to clarify, it seems to me that none of the extant material listed under "Archetypes" for the Wizard would have qualified for Round 2, as those are all new schools, not archetypes.
Right?
Based on previous posts by SKR and co. my understanding is that you are correct.
Thomas Austin, you are right, the material in the APG would not qualify for round 2 as I understand it. I believe that the information in the APG for cleric, sorcerer, and wizard was placed there to expand options for those classes but are not archetypes.
Now with that said I do believe that leaves the window wide open on those classes to make archetype.
And, we've heard that there are archetypes for spell casters in Ultimate Magic, from Paizo for Pathfinder RPG. Releasing at a later date.