Advice on a Martial Cleric


Advice


Ok planning out a new character and was looking for some advice.

Concept: Martial type cleric (1 or 2 levels of fighter the rest cleric.
Basically the character was a temple guard/soldier that turned closer to the faith as he served the church. Kind of like a paladin but I dont like the paladin class.

Domains: Glory(Heroism) and Healing(Restoration)

Attributes: Want to focus on Strenth and Wisdom followed by Con and Charisma.

Pretty dead set on Domains and was envisioning the Character fighting with a longsword and shield.

Mostly what I need help on is feats.

Feats I wanted to take
Weapon Focus
Shield Focus
Selective Channel
Extra Channel
Toughness
Body Guard (just like the concept)

Was wondering about Power Attack with a 3/4 BAB class, would the -to hit hurt to much?

Have kind of the same question about TWF (Longsword/Shield) with a heavy shield it would be -4 to hit right? Are there feats that lower the penalties to hit? Would cleric buffs make up for the -2 penalty?

Another idea I had was taking Vital Strike and Improve Vital Strike and just basically limiting myself to one attack per round but with an extra +2d8 damage. Just seams that the second and 3rd attack for a cleric are at such a low bonus (-5 and -10) with a 3/4 BAB might not even hit all that often. Would this work?

Cleave really worth taking?

Cleave and Vital Strike don't work together do they?

Channeled Smite? worth it to smack down undead?

Please feel free to make any suggestions.

EDIT: Limited to Core and APG for materials.


Kalyth wrote:

Ok planning out a new character and was looking for some advice.

Concept: Martial type cleric (1 or 2 levels of fighter the rest cleric.
Basically the character was a temple guard/soldier that turned closer to the faith as he served the church. Kind of like a paladin but I dont like the paladin class.

Domains: Glory(Heroism) and Healing(Restoration)

Attributes: Want to focus on Strenth and Wisdom followed by Con and Charisma.

Pretty dead set on Domains and was envisioning the Character fighting with a longsword and shield.

Mostly what I need help on is feats.

Feats I wanted to take
Weapon Focus
Shield Focus
Selective Channel
Extra Channel
Toughness
Body Guard (just like the concept)

Was wondering about Power Attack with a 3/4 BAB class, would the -to hit hurt to much?

Have kind of the same question about TWF (Longsword/Shield) with a heavy shield it would be -4 to hit right? Are there feats that lower the penalties to hit? Would cleric buffs make up for the -2 penalty?

Another idea I had was taking Vital Strike and Improve Vital Strike and just basically limiting myself to one attack per round but with an extra +2d8 damage. Just seams that the second and 3rd attack for a cleric are at such a low bonus (-5 and -10) with a 3/4 BAB might not even hit all that often. Would this work?

Cleave really worth taking?

Cleave and Vital Strike don't work together do they?

Channeled Smite? worth it to smack down undead?

Please feel free to make any suggestions.

EDIT: Limited to Core and APG for materials.

Heavy Armor Proficiency will get you more AC than Shield Focus will. Whether or not you should take toughness depends on your constitution score and where you favored class point is going. I would not take cleave, but I would take power attack.

Cleave and Vital Strike don't work together.
I would not take Channel Smite Either, at least not right now.
It takes about 4 feats(Shield Slam, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Shield Master).
I understand you won't always be buffed, but you can power attack and better off than you would be with TWF.

What point buy are you allowed to use and what levels are you starting at?

PS:You are better off full round attacking. What are the other players using?


wraithstrike wrote:

Heavy Armor Proficiency will get you more AC than Shield Focus will. Whether or not you should take toughness depends on your constitution score and where you favored class point is going. I would not take cleave, but I would take power attack.

Cleave and Vital Strike don't work together.
I would not take Channel Smite Either, at least not right now.
It takes about 4 feats(Shield Slam, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, and...

I will be taking one or two levels in fighter so that will get me the Heavy Armor Proficiency.

We will be rolling stats (probably 4d6 drop lowest arrange as desired).

Favored Class point will probably go into skills as both fighter and cleric only get 2 skill points and I dont see the character having a high INT.

Other players are probably going to be Martial class and an arcane caster.


Kalyth wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Heavy Armor Proficiency will get you more AC than Shield Focus will. Whether or not you should take toughness depends on your constitution score and where you favored class point is going. I would not take cleave, but I would take power attack.

Cleave and Vital Strike don't work together.
I would not take Channel Smite Either, at least not right now.
It takes about 4 feats(Shield Slam, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, and...

I will be taking one or two levels in fighter so that will get me the Heavy Armor Proficiency.

We will be rolling stats (probably 4d6 drop lowest arrange as desired).

Favored Class point will probably go into skills as both fighter and cleric only get 2 skill points and I dont see the character having a high INT.

Other players are probably going to be Martial class and an arcane caster.

Why the one or two fighter levels? They will help you to hit things up front, but hurt in the long run. I guess what I am asking is are the fighter levels an RP decision or a mechanical decision. If it is mechanical you are probably better off just staying cleric, especially if other people are going to have martial characters you.


wraithstrike wrote:
Why the one or two fighter levels? They will help you to hit things up front, but hurt in the long run. I guess what I am asking is are the fighter levels an RP decision or a mechanical decision. If it is mechanical you are probably better off just staying cleric, especially if other people are going to have martial characters you.

Mostly Roleplaying. Though also would hate to have to spend feats on Heavy Armor Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiencies just to use weapons that were not my Diety's Favored Weapon. Also figured the extra feats Fighter feats and the saving a feat on heavy armor could be used to improve fighting capabilities.

Alternately I could take 1-3 levels of Fighter, Paladin or Cavalier.

I know I'm trading 3 levels of casting but I would still get 9th level spells just later.


If I dropped Fighter/Paly/Cavalier levels and just went Cleric all the way what would your suggestions be.

Basically what im going for is a Divine Warrior type that has spell casting capability and can fight. I want more casting capability than a Paladin. I dont mind giving up some of the clerics casting capability to be a more effective warrior. I would even be willing to accept access to only 8th or even 7th level spells.

I do not like the feel or format of the Inquisitor. Just to clunky mechanic wise for me.

Likewise the Paladin past 3rd level or so start to give me that clunky over mechanized feel to it. Even smite evil feels a bit overly mechanized to me.


What do you mean by mechanized?
I only ask so I can avoid sending you into a direction you are trying to get away from.

A cleric is a capable fighter. You won't do as much damage as a dedicated warrior but you will be respectable in battle.

Weapon Focus is not a bad feat to take.

If the other arcane caster will be buffing that would be great. Haste is your friend.

Are you allowed to use traits?

I would not worry about the shield.

I just noticed Bodyguard has Combat Reflexes as a prereq. I don't think an occasional +2 to AC is worth 2 feats. If you were taking Combat Reflexes anyway it would be different.

Extra Channeling might not be bad to take later on.

Reach Spell is not bad either. You can hit someone with a cure spell if a channel won't help them enough without having to actually walk over to where they are.

I would keep toughness as a possible feat depending on what stats you roll.


Kalyth wrote:


Basically what im going for is a Divine Warrior type that has spell casting capability and can fight. I want more casting capability than a Paladin. I dont mind giving up some of the clerics casting capability to be a more effective warrior. I would even be willing to accept access to only 8th or even 7th level spells.

Have you considered Battle Oracle? Depending on your priorities it might fit what you want pretty well.


I'd suggest you take a look at Holy Vindicator as it will increase your fighting ability at higher levels without weakening your channeling


The first two levels of Fighter might be worth it if you are human - that's three feats at first level, plus a bonus one at second level, so you'd be able to pick up all the combat feats you need right away. Wouldn't have to spend a feat to wear heavy armor either. Then when you go Cleric at 3rd level you can pick up Extra Channel, and go on from there.

Your channeling will be weaker at first, being only 1d6 until you're at Cleric 3, you'll gradually get stronger. Just make sure your Charisma is high - a good Wisdom won't hurt either, as that will mitigate the Fighter's crappy Will saves.


What I mean by mechanized(used that word only becaus I couldn't think of a better term) is clunky layered rules.

Example: Paladin Smite evil used to be +x damage.

Now its +x damage, +CHA to AC, extra damage on 1st hit if target is x,y,z.

Basically, I like simple game mechanics. The magus makes me choke, it is so fully of added mechanics and options and blah blah.....The over all concept is cool and abilities like Spell Strike, Spell Combat, etc.. very cool!!! However the class is just over run with so many abilities and game mechanics. That turns me off.

I have thought about Oracle of battle and am considering that directions but the Curses just dont seem to fit my character concept. They only two that would work would possibly be Lame (just make it so he had some kind of accident or something) or Haunted (but that doesnt really fit my vision of the character either).


@kalyth

In the Pathfinder campaign book they have an option for clerics to forgo their domain spells and get Full BAB and d10 Hit dice. I am currently playing a cleric of Gorum with this option and I love it. With Full BAB and my buffs make me a far more capable me lee than the rest of the group. Just "Divine Power" makes me a terror. The trade off is the time I spend buffing. The loss of the domain spells hurt but its still a far better option than dipping into fighter.

With this build i Focused on Strength with my back up stats being Con and wisdom. Im keeping my wisdom just high enough to make sure i can always cast my highest level spells.


Some general thoughts on the Martial Cleric:

-You're going to be feat starved and skill starved. The cure for either of these is worse than the condition IMO. A level of Fighter for feats is gonna hurt a lot, as losing caster levels not only delays getting higher level spells but also retards domain abilities, reduces the total amount of spells you cast, and gimps your heal party/ hurt undead channeling trick.

-If you're going to wade into combat, you'll need some help from above so to speak. Domain choices that help could be Protection/Defense subDomain(APG)(buffs to AC, Barkskin spell), Strength Domain(not awful Domain buff and handy if redundant spells), Travel Domain (special powers rock- +10 move even in heavy armor, Longstrider and other incredible utility spells, and the ability to dimension hop out of grapples when the big nasties get you), and of course War Domain.

-You get to cast long lasting, hours per level enchantments on your armor and weapons. That's huge as it saves you money and more than compensates for your limited weapon choices. Also, your Wisdom score need not be terribly high, allowing you more points to Strength.

For some general ideas, see Becket's Lab. Useful, but we really need a Cleric's Handbook, O you build wizards out there!


Mahorfeus wrote:

The first two levels of Fighter might be worth it if you are human - that's three feats at first level, plus a bonus one at second level, so you'd be able to pick up all the combat feats you need right away. Wouldn't have to spend a feat to wear heavy armor either. Then when you go Cleric at 3rd level you can pick up Extra Channel, and go on from there.

Your channeling will be weaker at first, being only 1d6 until you're at Cleric 3, you'll gradually get stronger. Just make sure your Charisma is high - a good Wisdom won't hurt either, as that will mitigate the Fighter's crappy Will saves.

That's what I was thinking basically taking two levels in fighter would get me Two extra feats and save me having to spead a feat on Heavy Armor. It would also open up all Martial Weapons, so that would give him a more Warrior feel than just being limited to simple weapons + Diety Favored weapon.

Really I'm trying to figure out what feats and feat combos I need to take to make the most of the characters fighting abilities. I evision him fighting Sword and Shield but dont really want to go the TWF Sword and Shield route.

I like the Idea of Shield Focus jsut to bump up AC and feel more Tank like. Heavy armor + shield + shield Focus would give me around a 22 AC base.

As for Traits not sure if they are being used but I could alway spend a feat to take a couple of them.

Dark Archive

There's no reason to take Shield Focus. The same feat slot will get you Heavy Proficiency and you simply don't have the feats to get both. Two levels of Fighter will hurt you bad. You lose progression in your Channels, Domains, and Spell casting. For a couple feats, heavy proficiency and barely better BAB? No, just no. Especially if you're going to be the only person in the party with healing, you really don't want to suck at your job.

So, here's what you do. Get as many points in Str and Wis as you can. Con and Cha are much less needed. Con can even just be 10. With Full Plate and a Shield you'll likely not be hit all that much. Hopefully, you'll get enough Dex for TWF.

Feats:
1 Weapon Focus
1(h) TWF
3. Improved Shield Bash
5.Extra Channels
7. Heavy Armor Proficiency
9. Shield Slam

etc.

You really don't need the heavy armor proficiency for a while since you'll be using a Breastplate until you can afford Mirthril Full Plate.


Slacker2010 wrote:

@kalyth

In the Pathfinder campaign book they have an option for clerics to forgo their domain spells and get Full BAB and d10 Hit dice. I am currently playing a cleric of Gorum with this option and I love it. With Full BAB and my buffs make me a far more capable me lee than the rest of the group. Just "Divine Power" makes me a terror. The trade off is the time I spend buffing. The loss of the domain spells hurt but its still a far better option than dipping into fighter.

With this build i Focused on Strength with my back up stats being Con and wisdom. Im keeping my wisdom just high enough to make sure i can always cast my highest level spells.

What's the title of that book? I don't see a Pathfinder campaign book or Pathfinder campaign guide.

Is it a hardcover or softcover? Is it available in pdf?

Silver Crusade

If you have the advanced players guide. Oracl of Battle fills this roll much better with out needing leveling in Fighter to do it. The only real trick is picking the spells you need. Almost all your buff spells are rounds per level. This will require you to cast them one time for each fight. So the exta castings per day will help you be more combat effective then a cleric. On top of that the mistyers you can pick are more effective for a melee set up then any of the cleric domain powers.


Go straight cleric of Iomedae (longsword) or Torag (warhammer) and take Heavy Armor proficiency at 1st level. You get shield proficiency for free.

For feats (assuming human):
1) Heavy Armor
1h) Selective Channel (heal friends, not foes!)
3) Power Attack
5+) As you see fit

I would stay away from two weapon fighting. As an alternative, some of the deities have a two-handed favorite weapon that could prove interesting.

-- david
Papa.DRB


Kalyth wrote:

Ok planning out a new character and was looking for some advice.

Planning is a good thing. First step to happiness with a PC.

A few questions: starting at 1st level? How fast is the advancement? How many others will be in the group and what are they playing? To what level do you envision the campaign going? What materials (3.5, non-core paizo, 3rd party materials) are you allowed to use?

If you're going to be the only healer for example, this is going to shape things.

Likewise if there are a lot of casters but no real fighters it will shape things.

Since you said you're rolling stats, what did you wind up getting?

If you go with longsword and shield, then I'd suggest a light shield so that you can still cast while holding the sword. If your DM would allow an old 3.5 feat that would let you cast while holding weapons/shields in your hands (somatic weaponry or something like that) then this could vary.

Likewise there are 3.5 shield feats that are nice (shield AC added to touch AC, etc).

I would suggest that you consider eschewing the fighter levels entirely. See if you really need the feats, and find out if say giving up on having heal is worth the least of your feats?

-James


YuenglingDragon wrote:

There's no reason to take Shield Focus. The same feat slot will get you Heavy Proficiency and you simply don't have the feats to get both. Two levels of Fighter will hurt you bad. You lose progression in your Channels, Domains, and Spell casting. For a couple feats, heavy proficiency and barely better BAB? No, just no. Especially if you're going to be the only person in the party with healing, you really don't want to suck at your job.

So, here's what you do. Get as many points in Str and Wis as you can. Con and Cha are much less needed. Con can even just be 10. With Full Plate and a Shield you'll likely not be hit all that much. Hopefully, you'll get enough Dex for TWF.

Feats:
1 Weapon Focus
1(h) TWF
3. Improved Shield Bash
5.Extra Channels
7. Heavy Armor Proficiency
9. Shield Slam

etc.

You really don't need the heavy armor proficiency for a while since you'll be using a Breastplate until you can afford Mirthril Full Plate.

+1. No I am not just saying +1 because he basically said what I said already with regard to the heavy armor feat and not taking the shield feat, and losing caster levels.

Rolls bluff check 1d20 + 20 ⇒ (2) + 20 = 22
Maybe I need to start shaving my dice.


DrDew wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:

@kalyth

In the Pathfinder campaign book they have an option for clerics to forgo their domain spells and get Full BAB and d10 Hit dice. I am currently playing a cleric of Gorum with this option and I love it. With Full BAB and my buffs make me a far more capable me lee than the rest of the group. Just "Divine Power" makes me a terror. The trade off is the time I spend buffing. The loss of the domain spells hurt but its still a far better option than dipping into fighter.

With this build i Focused on Strength with my back up stats being Con and wisdom. Im keeping my wisdom just high enough to make sure i can always cast my highest level spells.

What's the title of that book? I don't see a Pathfinder campaign book or Pathfinder campaign guide.

Is it a hardcover or softcover? Is it available in pdf?

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting

Dark Archive

Papa-DRB wrote:
Go straight cleric of Iomedae (longsword) or Torag (warhammer) and take Heavy Armor proficiency at 1st level. You get shield proficiency for free.

There isn't a whole lot of point to getting heavy proficiency at 1st level. You won't be able to afford anything much better than a Breastplate so you might as well get feats that offer bigger benefits. If you actually want to do TWF with a shield, there is nothing better than a Breastplate until you can finally get Mithral Plate.


My thoughts:
Ignore TWF altogether, it's just going to make your life complicated, "It's a trap!". It requires too high of a Dex and too many feats for a Cleric. Your shield gives AC and it's cheap to magic-up.

Fighter Dip: I personally never see a problem with a SINGLE level of Fighter. My DM has come to call it, "Dan's Obligatory Level of Fighter". Feat, HPs, BaB, All martial weapons, hvy armor... I don't mind ONE level for all of that. A 2nd level of Fighter however loses it's flare a little bit, IMO. When: Sometime between 1st and 3rd, I'd suggest 2nd level and would probably grab 'Weapon Focus' for the feat.

The sad reality of the situation is that you won't be able to keep up in damage with Fighters and Rogues after approx. 5th level. I just played a Shoanti Cleric of Gorum up to level 15, at some point... especially if you're the only healer... you just have to "cleric-up".

Cleric-Up: Realizing that it's more important, benficial (aka necessary) for you to heal other party members than it is to swing your +2 Holy Bastard sword.

All that said, it didn't stop me from roleplaying him with barbarian bad-assery(Gorum/Shoanti/Strength Domain), but combat for him primarily after 10th level was more about Dispel Magic, Channel Energy(heals) and Healing spells. Out of combat was for mocking party members when I was fixing ability score damage, etc... obviously being sickly because they always needed magical healing after combats. I never did, nothing could ever hit me, due to high AC. :D

Silver Crusade

Play straight cleric. Pick Gorum, play a half Orc. This gets you three good two hand weapons: great sword, great axe, and falchion. You do not need heavy armor with full spell progression and buffing yourself appropriately you will be hitting hard but not quite as hard as the full BAB classes.

The benefits of having all your spells is if a fight needs a certain tactic you will have spell to cover it. More Ac, more to hit, more damage, align weapon. One round to buff and bam you are ready to go. You can cleric up when the group needs it or you can go in and kick butt if they need that. Power attack and scribe scroll will let you do what you need when you need to do it.

If you do not want the great sword then I highly suggest a god with travel getting fly and teleport is amazing for a cleric and doubly so for one that wants to fight.


Personally, I think a dedicated melee cleric is a bad idea. If you want to do damage physically, channel Rosa from Final Fantasy 4, and go for archery.

Human Fighter1/ClericX (fighter level can be ignored if you worship Erastil, just spread out feats over 7 levels)
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
3: Selective Channeling (A must have for clerics IMHO)
5: Deadly Aim

Now you are pretty well off damage wise, and you don't have to expose yourself to the melee, meaning you're still around to fix stuff when the dust settles, and the fighter would like to get his spleen back inside him.

But really, for a combat type cleric, I agree with karkon; worship Gorum to get greatsword/any other deity with decent martial melee weapon as favored weapon, and take power attack at level 3, then focus on being a cleric. Your party will thank you for it, and when you need to lay down the hurt, a divine favor closes the gap for the first few levels, and makes you more than relevant in battle.

The Cleric > Fighter in melee days ended with 3.X


Yuengling Dragon wrote:
You really don't need the heavy armor proficiency for a while since you'll be using a Breastplate until you can afford Mirthril Full Plate.

Even Mithy FP requires Heavy Armor Proficiency... :( This broke my heart for my Barb 3.5=>PF conversion...

PRD wrote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor.

I have seen it work both Full Cleric and Fighter-Dip'd. It really depends on your game, as a whole. If you are in a powerful, optimized style campaign, straight cleric is the only answer. If you are in a different style campaign, then one or two levels can work for you.

Fighter1 will cover your needs/wants, fighter 2 stretches you a bit for minimal gain (oh! one more feat!).

GNOME


Thanks for all the advice so far.

We havent rolled stats yet will be doing that probablly the day of the first game.

Things I am set on for this character due to concept.

Human
Fights with Sword and Shield in Heavy Armor
Heroism Subdomain.

Im not looking to out melee a fighter just want to be an impressive melee combatant.

I dont mind sacrificing a 1-3 levels of casting for a few levels of fighter/paly/cavalier. Though like some have pointed out it doesnt look like anything past Fighter 1 gets me anything really good.
So I'm thinking of taking just one level of fighter then cleric all the way.

Prefered Class Bonus: Skill points most levels

Feats
Human: Weapon Focus: Long Sword
Fighter: Power Attack
1st: Toughness
3rd: Selective Channel
5th: Extra Channel
7th: Extend Spell
9th: Reach Spell
11th: Quicken Spell
13th: ?
15th: ?
*Not sure if game will ever reach past 15th.

Any advice on those blank levels for feats?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Consider Battle Oracle. You can get the proficiencies you want without spending feats.


LazarX wrote:
Consider Battle Oracle. You can get the proficiencies you want without spending feats.

Compare Battle Oracle with a Fighter1/ClericX build and see what features of each you like and dislike.

Each will get top level spells at the same time. One is spontaneous while the other is prepared. The domain abilities & channel vs the further oracle revelations & mysteries (and curse).

-James


Kalyth wrote:

Things I am set on for this character due to concept.

Human
Fights with Sword and Shield in Heavy Armor
Heroism Subdomain.

This can all still be achieved by taking the Battle Cleric Variant from Pathfinder Campaign setting. You lose only ONE feat. The d10 HD of the Battle cleric will make up for the Toughness Feat, and the only feat cost is having to pick up Heavy Armor. Most likely you wont have the money for Full Plate right away anyway.

The bonus of this, far out weigh the delay on a SINGLE feat. Because the Battle Cleric gets Full BAB this will always be better for attacking than Heroism. By the time you get that cool domain power (cleric lvl 8) you will have gained +2 to your BAB with the Battle cleric. This also helps with extra attacks when you full round attack, or for feat selections. And the best party, the bard/wizard can still cast heroism on you! This is a much more powerful combat alternative. The lost of Domain spells hurts (both in spell selection and bonus spell of each level), but you mentioned your ok with losing a little casting ability. IMO this build will give you the best melee combat abilities and will still keep you a stronger spell caster than any dipping.

Your a cleric and can roll play the aspects of Glory and Honor or Protection or whatever else you want him to stand for. Its really hard for me to explain how powerful this variant is being it has FULL BAB and full cleric casting progression.


Kalyth wrote:

Feats

Human: Weapon Focus: Long Sword
Fighter: Power Attack
1st: Toughness

Idea:

Human: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Fighter: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)

Justification: Bastard Sword vs. Power Attack you get on average +1 damage with the bastard sword vs. the long sword without sacrificing To Hit scores. And you can pick up Power Attack at level 5 or later when the bonuses start getting bigger.

-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts


Swiftbrook wrote:
Kalyth wrote:

Feats

Human: Weapon Focus: Long Sword
Fighter: Power Attack
1st: Toughness

Idea:

Human: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
Fighter: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)

Justification: Bastard Sword vs. Power Attack you get on average +1 damage with the bastard sword vs. the long sword without sacrificing To Hit scores. And you can pick up Power Attack at level 5 or later when the bonuses start getting bigger.

-Swiftbrook
Just My Thoughts

Other idea:

Human: extra traits
Heirloom weapon (bastard sword)
something else that fits your character
Fighter: power attack

Best of both worlds. Get the d10 damage, +2 from power attack, and still overall on a +1 early.

IMO power attack is always worth it. Even at low levels.

Dark Archive

FireberdGNOME wrote:
Yuengling Dragon wrote:
You really don't need the heavy armor proficiency for a while since you'll be using a Breastplate until you can afford Mirthril Full Plate.
Even Mithy FP requires Heavy Armor Proficiency... :( This broke my heart for my Barb 3.5=>PF conversion...

You missed my point. I was saying you don't need it for a while. Since you can't afford full plate at 1st level much less mithril full plate, you don't need to spend the feat for 5-7 levels.

Slacker2010, I think your memory of the Holy Warrior from the campaign setting is off or you're missing the point. Holy Warriors lose access to their domain powers and spells. So no Heroism domain. Which is what he said he wanted. I realize that you think that full BAB is better than the Heroism domain but that's not what the OP is looking for.

Liberty's Edge

YuenglingDragon wrote:
FireberdGNOME wrote:
Yuengling Dragon wrote:
You really don't need the heavy armor proficiency for a while since you'll be using a Breastplate until you can afford Mirthril Full Plate.
Even Mithy FP requires Heavy Armor Proficiency... :( This broke my heart for my Barb 3.5=>PF conversion...

You missed my point. I was saying you don't need it for a while. Since you can't afford full plate at 1st level much less mithril full plate, you don't need to spend the feat for 5-7 levels.

Slacker2010, I think your memory of the Holy Warrior from the campaign setting is off or you're missing the point. Holy Warriors lose access to their domain powers and spells. So no Heroism domain. Which is what he said he wanted. I realize that you think that full BAB is better than the Heroism domain but that's not what the OP is looking for.

Full BAB and d10, but the point remains the same. Also Domains come with nice features. I like the travel domain in particular for the movement stuff.

Dark Archive

There's no great way to do this; you're picking a weak weapon style (sword and board), considering multi-classing, and picking a few suboptimal domains.

Now if you ditch the need for the weapons, you've got a great support / buffer. Removing statices from allies without expending spells, and eventually the amazing aura of hope (with the spells on your list) and empowered heals... no, healing and support does not come better than that. It's almost resigning to do this.

You'll do OK at low levels, where heavy armor proficiency and a high strength is enough to be on the front line, but you'll quickly find yourself far better if you concentrate on this in the first place.

So with all of this in mind, you should concentrate on wisdom, and if you must pick up a weapon and don't completely sack strength... If you focus on buffs and healing you don't really need higher than a 16 wis.

The 1 level fighter dip, if anything, will make you worse; since it restricts your access to the better buffs and your ability to help your allies.

To build a combat cleric, pick up a spear and the growth domain and stay away from opponents; you can actually straight polearm fighter from there if you want. But the build you are talking of will fail at being relevant on the front line.

Silver Crusade

Kalyth wrote:

Thanks for all the advice so far.

We havent rolled stats yet will be doing that probablly the day of the first game.

Things I am set on for this character due to concept.

Human
Fights with Sword and Shield in Heavy Armor
Heroism Subdomain.

Im not looking to out melee a fighter just want to be an impressive melee combatant.

Prefered Class Bonus: Skill points most levels

Feats
Human: Weapon Focus: Long Sword
Fighter: Power Attack
1st: Toughness
3rd: Selective Channel
5th: Extra Channel
7th: Extend Spell
9th: Reach Spell
11th: Quicken Spell

Might I suggest Cleric of Iomedae. You get proficiency in longsword for free. Take feats like so:

Human Weapon Focus Long Sword
1st Toughness
3rd Power attack
5th Heavy Armor prof
Shift the rest of the feats back to the next available time which should also fill the ?? slots. Stay full cleric for additional flexibility.

I think you can save a feat if you do not take the weapon focus which will let you use a morning star or mace as your main weapon but not lose the +1. That moves heavy armor up to your Human feat and only shifts the other feats back two levels. This keeps full spell progression and based on your concept I really think fighter does not give you enough to only dip one level. going for Heroism and strength domains gives you alot. Enlarge person alone gives you great tactical benefits. Get a wand of it and you can be the constantly enlarging reach guy. Provide flank for two or more characters at a time.


@Yuengling Dragon: No, I'm not missing the point. I was just trying to impart the advantages along with staying in his concept. If he wanted Heroism Domain for the spells or the 8th level power, then I was explaining to him why the Holy Warrior (thanks for the name, didn't have the books in front of me) would be better. If it was for fluff, then you can roll play that from being a Cleric of Iomedae. The Domains of the God are still Glory and War so you can be a cleric more in tune with that side of the God even without actually having access to the domains. Sorry if i was unclear earlier. Its hard for me to impart my view/point through post.

@ciretose: I would agree that domains have VERY cool stuff, I have played a cleric of Trickery and Travel back in the day. The utility you can get from abilities or spells normally unavailable to you has an appeal. But the OP had the concept of a Frontline melee Cleric. So I was trying to give him the best way to build that.


Slacker2010 wrote:

@Yuengling Dragon: No, I'm not missing the point. I was just trying to impart the advantages along with staying in his concept. If he wanted Heroism Domain for the spells or the 8th level power, then I was explaining to him why the Holy Warrior (thanks for the name, didn't have the books in front of me) would be better. If it was for fluff, then you can roll play that from being a Cleric of Iomedae. The Domains of the God are still Glory and War so you can be a cleric more in tune with that side of the God even without actually having access to the domains. Sorry if i was unclear earlier. Its hard for me to impart my view/point through post.

@ciretose: I would agree that domains have VERY cool stuff, I have played a cleric of Trickery and Travel back in the day. The utility you can get from abilities or spells normally unavailable to you has an appeal. But the OP had the concept of a Frontline melee Cleric. So I was trying to give him the best way to build that.

For what it's worth I believe James Jacobs disowned the holy warrior alternate class feature, saying it doesn't fit the balance they want for PRPG, and that it won't be republished. If you're not playing Pathfinder Society, you can houserule it in- but I wouldn't. It's a little..off balance-wise. Personally I like the Holy Vindicator.


Holy Vindicator rocks hard if you wanna melee.
Good for using channel to blast evil outsiders too.
Best weapon is a Falcata (to bump the dc on divine wrath).

With only 8 or 9 cleric levels it's best to go domains whose only cleric effect restriction is duration.
Heroism and Archon domains are awesome here as they help all the party and 8rds will get you through most fights.


Vindicator is great for bad-guys. Good guys' channel to damage is very circumstantial.

If you are using 3.5 materials, the Ordained Champion PrC in complete champion sounds like something that would be relevant to your interests.


Kamelguru wrote:
If you are using 3.5 materials, the Ordained Champion PrC in complete champion sounds like something that would be relevant to your interests.

Hell if you are going 3.5 then a Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ordained Champion 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 is almost impossible to beat for a melee cleric, use a Guisarme, take the Trip feats and the Thicket of Blades stance and battlefield control your way to victory...then again thats a lot of 3.5 hijinks.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kalyth wrote:

Ok planning out a new character and was looking for some advice.

Concept: Martial type cleric (1 or 2 levels of fighter the rest cleric.
Basically the character was a temple guard/soldier that turned closer to the faith as he served the church. Kind of like a paladin but I dont like the paladin class.

Domains: Glory(Heroism) and Healing(Restoration)

Attributes: Want to focus on Strenth and Wisdom followed by Con and Charisma.

Pretty dead set on Domains and was envisioning the Character fighting with a longsword and shield.

...

EDIT: Limited to Core and APG for materials.

(emphasis mine; everyone suggesting 3.5 material or options not in Core or APG, stop doing so)

Since you are rolling for ability scores, keep things simple. Looking through the deities, the only one with both the Heroism and Restoration sub-domains is Sarenrae, which is not a bad choice for a sword & board fighter. Once you gain 3rd level spells (cleric 5), heroism (domain spell) becomes a staple buff on yourself. I'd recommend using a scimitar (favored weapon) instead of a longsword, though. Starting out, you may want to consider the following progression:

Human Fighter 1/Cleric (Sarenrae; Heroism, Restoration) 4
Traits: Birthmark, Magical Knack (Cleric)
F1- Power Attack, Saving Shield or Toughness (depending on Con), Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
C2- Extra Channel or Selective Channeling (depending on Cha)
C4- ?

At this point you should make a decision on whether you want to attempt to qualify for the holy vindicator PrC. This will give you increased combat and channeling abilities at the cost of spell progression and domain powers.

If you want to qualify, then take Turn Undead (if undead are a common foe) or an item creation (Craft Wand for churning out wands of cure light wounds can help keep you from having to sacrifice spell slots for healing)/metamagic feat at cleric 4 and Alignment Channel at cleric 6, at which point you can switch to holy vindicator. Take Extra Channel or Selective Channeling (whichever was not taken at cleric 2) at holy vindicator 2 and Improved Critical (Scimitar) at holy vindicator 4 (to take advantage of Divine Wrath). Holy vindicators gain Channel Smite as a bonus feat at 5th level, so save your available feats for something else.

If you want to stay a cleric, then Channel Smite, item creation, and metamagic feats should be your priorities for the rest of your progression.

If you want to get a bit more complex and consider different domains, a Phalanx Soldier Fighter 3/Cleric (Shelyn; Fate, Love) or Polearm Master Fighter 2/Cleric (Shelyn; Defense, Love) can make a non-standard but effective martial cleric.


While not optimized exclusively for combat, I'm having fun playing this build in a play by post Council of Thieves game.

Having an AC of 21 and Improved Disarm with a specialized CMB of +7 (1 BAB, 1 STR, +2 Feat, +2 Flail, +1 Magic Weapon) at 2nd level is pretty handy. AC 23 with a spell.

The third level feat will probably end up being Improved Trip.
The fourth level stat bump will almost certainly go to DEX. (AC 22 base)
The fifth level feat will probably end up being Mobility or Selective Channel. (AC 23 with Combat Expertise running; 25 with Shield of Faith up).
The seventh level feat will be Selective Channel if it wasn't taken earlier.
The ninth level feat I'm not sure of. Probably Extra Channel.

Don't underestimate how useful Mobility is in getting close to someone to cast a heal spell in combat.

Like you, I felt that a one-level dip to get all martial weapons was worthwhile. Heavy armor proficiency is less of a concern; most heavy armor nets the same amount of AC as the Dex bump. Being able to take up the flail, while also getting Dodge, was my primary aim.

I intend to use the 8th level War Domain ability (which I'll get at 9th character level) to pull in Greater Trip, Greater Disarm or Spring Attack as needed.


I believe that you are picking a path that makes a weaker caster and a weaker fighter. If you want to make an optimized character, you should pick whether to be a good caster cleric or good melee cleric.

Your domain choices are great for a good support caster cleric - heroism and restoration. Your option to take fighter levels are sub-optimal for being a good support caster cleric. If you want to follow along this path, which is a very optimal way to play cleric, forget taking any fighter levels.

Your fighting style, weapon and shield is okay, but only really works for high dpr if you are willing to go all the way into two weapon fighting. The draw back for two weapon fighting is that it is feat intensive and precludes you from taking a lot of the feats you listed. You would need two weapon fighting, improved shield bash, double slice, improved two weapon fighting and two weapon rend. If you are unwilling to take those feats and still want to be relevant in combat, you should use a two handed weapon (assumes in all cases you have power attack). If you choose sword and shield without two weapon fighting, then you should assume you won't do a lot of damage in combat and stick with being a good support caster who can do some damage in combat.

Holy vindicator is a really good option to make a cleric get close to fighter melee damage. The drawback is loss of caster levels, but is still way better for dpr and defense than taking levels of fighter. The damage a two weapon fighting holy vindicator can get to will approach fighter dpr at higher levels.

The choices you presented are pretty solid if you go full cleric (don't multiclass). If you are using pathfinder dieties, Sarenrae (which has access to your domains) gives you scimitar proficiency for free.


So really there a 3 ways to go:Straight Cleric, dip fighter or HV.

Straight Cleric melee- domain choices are critical. For example for 'best' DPR you could take the rage and blood Subdomains (Our lord in iron)
Rage domain gives you, well rage! and access to awesome rage powers-two for free +plus your feats. Take reckless abandon, moment of clarity and whatever else you like.
Blood gives you the wounding property for free and stacks with your weapon.
Quicken a divine power+ rage and 2H a greatsword for awesome.

For astraight defensive melee build being a dwarf with heavy armour prof (stoneplate) with growth and fur Subdomains (erastil) makes for and awesome enlarged spear fighter (reach) with a large tiger buddy. A one level fighter dip works well here.Take bonded compaion and if you use a fighter level- combat expertise and trip, using a ranseur instead of spear.

HV works wonders for DPR for good or evil clerics. You get better dpr, a stigmata and the awesome divine wrath/vengeance powers.
Straight Cleric 9, Indomae (Heroism/Archon Subdomains) and use either a Scimitar or Falcata. Wear a Buckler. Go 1handed on mooks to keep your ac high (the Vindicator shield power rocks) and vs BBEG go 2handed for dpr.
Take turn evil for channel blasting evil outsiders (a common foe worth blasting). Be sure to take the magical knack and turning boosting traits.

Evil Clerics works similar but they turn vs everyone.


Thanks for all of the advices.

I think Im going to go with Fighter 1 then Cleric the rest of the way. I know I wont put out fighter level melee damage but I can live with that.

Thanks again.

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