Is there indoor plumbing in Korvosa?
Honstly, I don't think there's the equivelent of indoor plumbing anywhere in D&D...
Either they have the equivelent of out-houses, or folks just go in a pot (like bedpans in hospitals) which lies near or under ones' bed (which is emptied in the morning).
You can introduce indoor plumbing in a gnomish city or something.
Ultradan
Chamberpots are the norm, I fear.
If you're wealthy enough to live in a mansion, you might have a gilded chamberpot.
If you live in a castle, you might have a Latrine that leads down to a cesspool.
Is there indoor plumbing in Korvosa?Honstly, I don't think there's the equivelent of indoor plumbing anywhere in D&D...
Say what? Just about every D&D city I've seen has a sewer system (for adventuring in, if not for pooping in).
Outhouses were common even into the early 20th century.
I'm afraid they're still fairly common even in the early 21st century in some parts of the world. I was using one in Romania this past summer.
A couple of notable assassinations were carried out (in both Europe and Japan) by assassins climbing up the inside of the Gadrobe, and stabbing his majesty in an unarmored hit location from beneath.
Takes all the romanticism and courtly intrigue out of being a royal assassin doesn't it?
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I would bet the Korvosans have indoor plumbing. The Romans managed it with aqueducts and lead pipes, I imagine in a fantasy world with a mix of magic and engineering some clever solutions have appeared.
I imagine for those who can afford it all types of cool waste management solutions.
A permanent unseen servant perhaps that ferries the waste into the sewers?
An extra dimensional toilet (ala bag of holding) that when closed traps unwanted foul odors until the owner can empty it.
A decanter of endless water used to provide indoor plumbing, or at least rinse waste down a drain.
Shoot, already my twisted DM brain is forming images of new NPC's: the slippery gnomish salesman (think 1950's door to door vacuum salesman) and his half-orc general contractor (think mob lieutenant) that sell the newest advances in state of the art wastewater treatment to the discerning nobleman.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe ancient/medieval era sewers were more storm sewers - to channel stream and river overflow - than for waste disposal.
I would think so, too. They might additionally come handy to dispose of waste, but they were storm drains.
The outhouses in a city often sat upon a cesspool that had to be emptied periodically by lower-caste people, who were sometimes called gold diggers sarcastically - they were on the same level as executioners and knackers (had to look that one up), and often fulfilled several of these functions.
Castles and towers might have garderobes that open directly into moats, not only into cesspools.
Back to the original question, no real indoor plumbing would be available IMO. At most, rich houses could have one or more garderobes and a cesspool below, but that´s it. Waste disposal was a huge concern way into the 20th century in the western world, with indoor plumbing and central waste disposal via pipes (and subsequent cleaning of the water used for it)being introduced in the late 1800s to early 1900s in cities and after 1950 in remote rural areas. As late as the 1890ies, Cholera epidemics occurred (again, in the western world - cholera is still a horrible disease killing tens of thousands each year), mainly spread by consuming impure water.
So, only very advanced societies will have indoor plumbing and waste disposal via a sewer system. Korvosa? Come to think of it, if it has sewers, rich houses might have something like that - a drain leading into those sewers.
Stefan
Outhouses were common even into the early 20th century.I'm afraid they're still fairly common even in the early 21st century in some parts of the world. I was using one in Romania this past summer.
A couple of notable assassinations were carried out (in both Europe and Japan) by assassins climbing up the inside of the Gadrobe, and stabbing his majesty in an unarmored hit location from beneath.Takes all the romanticism and courtly intrigue out of being a royal assassin doesn't it?
Professional murder has always been a dirty, filth-covered industry.
Just like how the stories never talk about how when someone dies, their bowels relax and they soil themselves.
This thread reminded me of one of the city environment background sounds for Neverwinter Nights, You would hear an old woman shout, "Look out below!" followed soon by a splash. I always thought it was a chamberpot and they were throwing out the nightsoil onto the city street to be washed down into the sewers by the rain.
Greg
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The old 2nd edition Ravenloft module "Feast of Goblyns" had a map of a farm house that had a bathroom (with a toilet clearly pictured)...
Now, no description was given, just a map...
But regardless of actual indoor plumbing or not, I see no reason not to have a room within a house within a cosmopolitan/metropolitan city for those "unmentionable" private activities (even if that "toilet" within said room is just an elaborate hole in the ground)...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
Guide to Korvosa does indeed say that Korvosa has an extensive sewer system for the southern parts of the city, but other wards have a different means of dealing with it.
If you look in Wikipedia under the history of the flush toilet, you'll find they were invented all over the place to varying degrees of popularity, but the patent from 1775 is still in use today. Consequently, I'd say that portions of Golarion based on the late 18th century, such as Korvosa, Andoran, and Galt, probably have them in the houses of the wealthy and various public buildings. Not so much with the poor or even the middle class, unless you've the the sort of middle class who have splurged or were lucky enough to buy a house formerly owned by someone wealthy.
An important thing to remember also is that in ancient Rome, urine was taxed, as it was valuable to the fullers who used it to clean and bleach cloth. Consequently, in a high level state society without indoor plumbing, you could still at least count on the fuller to drop by in the morning and empty your chamberpots for you.
...constitutional reading...
Well done, Sir. Well done. I applaud your humor.
Greg
...constitutional reading...Well done, Sir. Well done. I applaud your humor.
Greg
+1. I think we can close this thread now, Epic Meepo has won this thread.
Cheliax would have good plumbing...
So would The dessert countries... The ancient Azlantiens and Thassilonians probably had that as well.
The Dwarves definately have Aqueducts that Rival the Best Rome ever had to offer... Perhaps with little water and fire elementals heating and moving things along and neo-otyughs or otyughs in the Garbage Pits and Sewers to clean up :) I can easily see the Dwarves having Diocletian's Baths from Frigidarium to Calderium (hot baths and sauna and cold baths) and even running water through granit lock block "pipes" running from House to House underground and via aquaducts :)
I can see Dwarves being very clean and groomed when not at work :)
Don't forget, the new Plague Doctor figurine is sculpted holding a urine specimen in his hand.
Yes, that's a urine specimen, not a potion bottle. Medieval doctors were really into judging health by how the urine looked, and even tasted. (More than you wanted to know, perhaps, but part of the history of medicine.)
The Inner Sea Bathroom Primer is less irrelevant than you might think....
Everyone who's watched the right episode of Scrubs know that it all comes down to poo.
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The problem being presented here isnt the original question, its the real-world logic being used to try to validate the points.
While Im sure everything in the real world logic and history lessons various people are providing have at least some truth to them (as a few of them are bound to contradict each other), it all fails to take into consideration that Golarion is a world where magic thrives.
So, really, the answer to the question is: Do you think Korvosa has the neccessary level of magic to have a system magically set up for them to accomodate indoor plumbing?
My opinions:
Mansions/castles: yes
regular houses: probably not, but I could see outhouse type stalls throughout the city that were enchanted to take care of the business after you finish yours, lol.
I don't know. I like the idea of a bugbear, attempting to hide under a child's bed, having to make a reflex save to avoid stepping in the chamberpot.
Granit pipes with tiny water elementals, decanters of endless water and otoyughs in the catch pools :)
The presence of Otoyugh's also means Korvosa is a very ideal place to dispose of the body of a murder victim.
Cheliax would have good plumbing...
So would The dessert countries... The ancient Azlantiens and Thassilonians probably had that as well.
The Dwarves definately have Aqueducts that Rival the Best Rome ever had to offer... Perhaps with little water and fire elementals heating and moving things along and neo-otyughs or otyughs in the Garbage Pits and Sewers to clean up :) I can easily see the Dwarves having Diocletian's Baths from Frigidarium to Calderium (hot baths and sauna and cold baths) and even running water through granit lock block "pipes" running from House to House underground and via aquaducts :)
I can see Dwarves being very clean and groomed when not at work :)
I must agree about Dwarves.
and (worst of all) lost low-level adventurers on their first sewer crawl dungeon.
Oh man, the mental image. Hilarious.
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The great thing about a well-dug outhouse is that it is self-maintaining. The bacteria come in and devour the excrement.
As long as you keep non-organic matter out they stay level, the only problem is the smell - so you don't need fancy bags of devouring, you just need some kind of smell-killing magic pomander.
I can see this as the reason gelatinous cubes were invented/bred. Some wizard built a square shaft and wanted an ooze that couldn't climb out to rampage. So he built/bred a square ooze. Soon everyone wanted one.
And then they got loose...
Honstly, I don't think there's the equivelent of indoor plumbing anywhere in D&D...
D&D? THIS! IS! PATHFINDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
:P
You can introduce indoor plumbing in a gnomish city or something.
Wouldn't fit Golarion's gnomes, except if they have one gnome obsessed with sanitary systems.
I can't quite remember where, but I just recently read about indoor plumbing in some Golarion material. Maybe Lost Cities of Golarion.
Korvosa has sewers, they are full of Otyugh's that eat the waste..Say what? Just about every D&D city I've seen has a sewer system (for adventuring in, if not for pooping in).Is there indoor plumbing in Korvosa?Honstly, I don't think there's the equivelent of indoor plumbing anywhere in D&D...
That's just offal!
Granit pipes with tiny water elementals, decanters of endless water and otoyughs in the catch pools :)
Which would explain the Elemental Wars.
From the DM's point of view, it largely depends on the ick factor of the players. The players may not appreciate complete detail.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I can see this as the reason gelatinous cubes were invented/bred. Some wizard built a square shaft and wanted an ooze that couldn't climb out to rampage. So he built/bred a square ooze. Soon everyone wanted one.
And then they got loose...
Great idea, but I can't think of a wizard needing a creature of that size to dispose of his waste. Maybe the aboleths created them eons ago. Each aboleth prooly makes alot of icky poopoo. I am thinking of the gray ooze and its variations...
I was running the end of Edge of Anarchy, and I had a situation where someone escaped while a guard was snoozing. I was thinking of movies where someone goes to the bathroom , then slips out a window. This made me wonder about this equivalent in Golarion. Is there indoor plumbing in Korvosa?
The maps for Curse of the Crimson Throne show indoor bathrooms & the city has a sewer system. I'd say that there is indoor plumbing. This is a fantasy setting, not medieval Europe.
In Council of Thieves a certain Mayor has hot and cold running water and toilets.
From the DM's point of view, it largely depends on the ick factor of the players. The players may not appreciate complete detail.
So I'm the only GM here who'll make players roll on the Stool Frequency, Quantity and Consistency Table?
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I was running the end of Edge of Anarchy, and I had a situation where someone escaped while a guard was snoozing. I was thinking of movies where someone goes to the bathroom , then slips out a window. This made me wonder about this equivalent in Golarion. Is there indoor plumbing in Korvosa?
"I hear ol Vigo was moanin about somethin tryin ta eat him when he went the Jakes at the Broken Mug." Boris squatted above the hole in the ground and moaned at his constipation.
"Damn Drunk with his fairytales!" Replied Yan from the next squat.
"You Know there are supposed to be tunnels dug beneath the city." Boris was thinking they might look into that soon.
"Yeah. Been thinking about...what the...ERRAGGG!" Yan's scream was Cut short.
"Yan? What you Screaming about? Yan?" Boris felt very alone as he staggered forward around the stall to look in on his friend. he watched as a naked foot and leg slid down a very narrow hole. The stall was sprayed with blood.
Boris made best speed for the Tap Room leaving a trail of dung in his wake.
"For Halav's Sake someone find me a Pot to go in..."
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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From the DM's point of view, it largely depends on the ick factor of the players. The players may not appreciate complete detail.So I'm the only GM here who'll make players roll on the Stool Frequency, Quantity and Consistency Table?
You forgot coloring, which is an important factor.
You forgot coloring, which is an important factor.From the DM's point of view, it largely depends on the ick factor of the players. The players may not appreciate complete detail.So I'm the only GM here who'll make players roll on the Stool Frequency, Quantity and Consistency Table?
I knew I forgot something! I saw the players being uncomfortable, obviously because the system wasn't perfect, but I couldn't put my fingers on it.
Since you have thought this through better than me: Finding leaves of the right size and texture, that's Survival, right? One player keeps complaining that it should be possible with Perception as well.
You forgot coloring, which is an important factor.From the DM's point of view, it largely depends on the ick factor of the players. The players may not appreciate complete detail.So I'm the only GM here who'll make players roll on the Stool Frequency, Quantity and Consistency Table?
I work in a lab. Stool color isn't that important. Now urine color; that is important.
This random nerd moment brought to you by the local scifi con going on this weekend.
Since you have thought this through better than me: Finding leaves of the right size and texture, that's Survival, right? One player keeps complaining that it should be possible with Perception as well.
Let him use his precious Perception, it won't tell him that this leaf is poisonous oak or that wonderfully amorous leaf attract Fire Ants at night when it rubbed off something, like Survival will tell him :).