Now that I have my Pathfinder Bestiary 2 in hand, I have a question about the "near" PC level races that are presented,
Specifically:
Are these creatures suitable for Player Character use?
If not, are they (like Tieflings) only slightly more powerful, so should they use the rule from the Council of Thieves Player's Guide p. 5?
On a related note, should races like:
also use the CoT rules?
I'd peg them at not needing a boost.
They all seem balanced with core races to me.
Depends. How did you class Tieflings?
Honestly, even the tieflings and aasimar aren't all that much to worry about above level 2. So I usually just don't bother with it at 1st level and it all evens out in a level or two.
As a note, there are a couple of other races in the book I'd probably allow a player to use, if they really wanted to. All CR 1 or less (the fish folk come to mind, as well as a couple of the fey that are CR 1, although the CR 1 types would likely always be a level down, using the B1 pg 313 rules).
I think they're quite close to standard races.
In my games, I'd allow them with only minor mechanical setbacks, like not receiving any bonuses for a favoured class.
I think they're quite close to standard races.
In my games, I'd allow them with only minor mechanical setbacks, like not receiving any bonuses for a favoured class.
Every races get's favored class bonuses, even stuff that's not playable (or at least not without GM fiat) like dragons and such. If you take a level of rogue, and you choose that as your FC, then you get a FC bonus.
Of course, we're talking house rules, but I don't think I'd punish anyone for taking one of those races. They're no more powerful than any of the core races. The Dhampir especially is actually a poor mechanical choice for anything other than a necromancer, and even then he's got a weak constitution. Certainly he's not a team player in a normal group. The cleric can't channel without killing him for one thing. :)
In my opinion, I'd bump the tiefling's resistances down to 2 from 5. Then I'd make a trait that increases the tiefling's resistances up to 5. Same thing with the Aasminar. (Aasimar also need a -2 to something, Con, I'd say.)
Dhampir seems balanced to me. It actually seems slightly overpowered, but it has some serious serious drawbacks (light sensativity, negative energy affinity) that balance it out enough AFAIAC.
Fetchling, IMO, needs toned down mildly. I'd make those resistances 2 (maybe 3) instead of 5 (again, with a trait that bumps them back up to 5).
Ifrit/Oread/Sylph/Undine all seem fine by me.
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I usually give an additional "background" feat, in addition to 2 traits, to 1st-level PCs. Pseudo-PC races like tieflings, aasimar, tengu, etc. give up the background feat in order to take the non-standard choice.
This has worked pretty well for the most part, although not all races are created equal. I have a suli-jann paladin in my Legacy of Fire campaign. In addition to foregoing a background feat, I also ruled that he didn't gain any of his energy resistances or wasn't able to use the "energy hands" ability until he'd suffered damage of that energy type, which "awakened" the ability (the character was unaware of his heritage at first). Worked pretty well by delaying access to a portion of the character's abilities to about level 4-5.
I think they're quite close to standard races.
In my games, I'd allow them with only minor mechanical setbacks, like not receiving any bonuses for a favoured class.
Every races get's favored class bonuses, even stuff that's not playable (or at least not without GM fiat) like dragons and such. If you take a level of rogue, and you choose that as your FC, then you get a FC bonus.
Of course, we're talking house rules
Exactly! We are talking about house rules. Allowing players to use these races are house rules all by themselves.
And for a time, I did away with the favoured class bonuses, because the way the system is handled in the Core Rulebook makes no sense to me. It doesn't really add anything to the flavour. It's only a power-up, and I'm usually generous enough with that.
I've changed my mind, but did state that exotic races would not get them. I think it's a fair trade-off.
but I don't think I'd punish anyone for taking one of those races. They're no more powerful than any of the core races.
Well, I haven't had a detailed look at all the races (I would probably do so when someone approached me about playing them), but at least some of the special cases we get in the Bestiaries (this isn't limited to the new stuff in B2) does sound quite nice.
Aasimars, for example, gain two bonuses without a penalty (every standard race that doesn't have the free-floating +2 gets a penalty, and even the other races on the same general level as aasimars and tieflings seem to get a -2. Suli are the only other exception I can think of). They also get some resistances, which are nice, especially on lower levels, and never forget the fact that they're native outsiders, meaning they get to ignore stuff like hold person.
And the new Ifrit, our new planetouched firelings, gain +2 charisma AND treat their charisma as 2 higher for sorcerer magic, provided they're fire elemental bloodline sorcerers. That alone means they can basically have a better starting attribute score than anyone else.
Those at the very least have stuff that, for me, would more than make up for a lost HP or skill point per level (and that's all they can get with standard rules, since the APG lists for alternate favoured class bonuses does not include those races)
The Dhampir especially is actually a poor mechanical choice for anything other than a necromancer, and even then he's got a weak constitution. Certainly he's not a team player in a normal group.
I wouldn't say that. While a con penalty always hurts, a number of classes can benefit from dexterity and charisma.
He could also go evil cleric and use the negative energy to heal himself from the very beginning, not just by being a level 8 cleric with the death domain. (Getting that one early sure is nice)
The cleric can't channel without killing him for one thing. :)
Actually, he can. Negative energy affinity means that you're treated as an undead for positive or negative energy effects.
And channel energy in Pathfinder either affects the living OR the dead, not both. At least that's the standard rule. That means that if the cleric releases a healing channel for living creatures, the effectively-undead dhampir is not affected at all.
I know, it doesn't make much sense, and I have personally house ruled it, too, but it's important to remember that they create these monsters with the standard rules in mind.
Besides, even with my house rule in place, this actually makes playing an evil cleric more attractive.
Come to think of it, if you manage to convince the rest of the team to play dhampirs also, you can have an all-evil party that has easy access to healing (since their cleric can effectively do everything his good-aligned counterpart can do in a group consisting of members of the standard races) without resorting to completely monstrous racial choices like ghouls, so you could comfortably start at level 1!
But to get back to the original statement, that many of these races shine only in special circumstances, there is an important point to make:
Since people will often choose these races when they intent to combine them with the very choices that make these races powerful (and not necessarily just because of min-maxing. After all, things like an ifrit who becomes a fire sorcerer makes a lot of sense, in addition of getting quite a cha boost), you can't base your considerations about relative power level solely on the bad match ups.
The wise choice is to totally think of these strong match-ups when deciding whether something is okay as is or whether it needs some sort of drawback to balance things out.
The wiser choice, maybe, is to tailor the balancing drawbacks to the exact circumstances. So a player tells his GM that he wants to play an ifrit. Before deciding whether there will be some balancing factor, the GM asks the player to tell him what class(es) and other choices the player will make with that character. If the player says he wants to be an ifrit fire sorcerer or anything that includes levels of fire sorcerer at some time, a balancing drawback is probably in order. If the guy plays a rogue, straight up, things are probably OK.
This might be the wiser choice, but it might also be unwise. It all depends on how much you trust your players (and they you), so they won't try to sneak the ifrit fire sorcerer ball the GM goalie, and, much more importantly, on the players understanding how you have conditional drawbacks. If they don't understand it, or they disagree with it, you might run into trouble when they learn that while Flamie the ifrit fire sorceress gets a penalty, Hothead the ifrit fighter does not.
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In my opinion, I'd bump the tiefling's resistances down to 2 from 5. Then I'd make a trait that increases the tiefling's resistances up to 5.
I like to just chop those resistances down to 1 / HD (max 5), so that they don't gain their full Fire (or whatever) Resistance 5 until 5th level.
Based on the Tiefling trait in Council of Thieves, that cut them down to make them better suited for PC use, I came up with a similar set of traits for the
Suli.
I'd imagine that similar traits could be used to tone back aasimar, fetchling, etc. if they seem over-the-top compared to humans, dwarves and gnomes.
Hey! Don't go leaving out the Grippli! ;)
I didn't. I was only looking at races that specifically did not have racial hit dice.
I let the Aasimar and Tiefling in without any changes.
After all if you give the examples in the APG NPC classes instead of PC classes then they would have the exact same challenge rating as a human with a level in an NPC class. As such they are balanced as they stand.
IMO Grippli are fine.
Depends. How did you class Tieflings?
I generally class them as hot. But that may just be me. :D
IMO Grippli are fine.
+1. I played a Grippli Witch for several months, and he was awesome. The race added flavor, but no real compelling or overpowered mechanics.
I generally class them as hot. But that may just be me. :D
Depends. How did you class Tieflings?
Really? Having a lover that dependent and obessive would be kind of a turn off to me.
Outsiders(Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, and Undine)
I think Fechling are outsiders as well.
What is the gist of the Sylph? Fey, Elemental? Evil?
I believe they replaced the Gensai of D&D 3.5, so:
What is the gist of the Sylph? Fey, Elemental? Evil?I believe they replaced the Gensai of D&D 3.5, so:
Air Gensai = Sylph
Earth Gensai = Oread
Fire Gensai = Ifrit
Water Gensai = Urdine
That's how I am using them, though Paizo is doing more than just renaming 3.5e concepts. I'm using these new races to replace the Genasi of my Forgotten Realms games that I've switched to Pathfinder rules.