Sneak attack: Power Attack, Vital Strike, and a magical enhancement such as shock


Rules Questions


Greetings all.

I should first mention the I made an attempt at searching for an answer but didn't quite find a suitable answer.

Using the Pathfinder core rules, I am making a level 8 rogue. This particular rogue has a +1 greatsword 2d6 with the shock ability (+1d6 when activated). This rogue has vital strike and power attack with a strength of 16 (+3) and a Base Attack Bonus (BAB) of 6.

My question(s) is/are: does vital strike and power attack work together with sneak attack (of 4d6)? I know vital strike does not work with shock and will only work on the 2d6 of the greatsword, but will power attack add its +6 bonus (+ 2 normally, +2 for having a BAB of 6 or greater, +2 for using a 2-handed weapon) to every d6 I roll, in this case 9d6 (4 from sneak attack, 2 from the sword, 1 for shock, and 2 from vital strike)? or will I roll the damage and just add +6 to the total in addition to the +1 from the weapon enhancement, +3 from strength, and +4 (1.5x my STR modifier)?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer my question. I am quite grateful. Hopefully I did not forget any details, I am still a novice in the dungeons and dragons world.

The Exchange

gravalpea wrote:


My question(s) is/are: does vital strike and power attack work together with sneak attack (of 4d6)? I know vital strike does not work with shock and will only work on the 2d6 of the greatsword, but will power attack add its +6 bonus (+ 2 normally, +2 for having a BAB of 6 or greater, +2 for using a 2-handed weapon) to every d6 I roll, in this case 9d6 (4 from sneak attack, 2 from the sword, 1 for shock, and 2 from vital strike)? or will I roll the damage and just add +6 to the total in addition to the +1 from the weapon enhancement, +3 from strength, and +4 (1.5x my STR modifier)?

power attack adds on each of your attacks. in this instance, you are only making one so just the +6 on the damage roll. might i interest you in taking a Large Greatsword which you can use at a -2 to hit and it does 3D6 damage which would benifit from the vital strike more. just a thought.


the_hulk wrote:


power attack adds on each of your attacks. in this instance, you are only making one so just the +6 on the damage roll. might i interest you in taking a Large Greatsword which you can use at a -2 to hit and it does 3D6 damage which would benifit from the vital strike more. just a thought.

Ah, thank you sir/ma'am for the speedy reply. Hmm...you have piqued my curiosity in weapons. Thanks!


He cannot use a large great sword at -2' you cannot use a weapon too large for you. That rule only applies if the weapon could concievably be wielded. Example a giants dagger is not a short sword but it is thevsame size as one. It could be used with dagger proficiency (it is still a dagger) at -2

A giants great sword is too large for a medium creature.


Not to crush any dreams but a medium character can't use a large greatsword. Power attack and vital strike with a medium greatsword is still a lot of damage, though.

EDIT: D'oh. Ninja'd.


Would a guaranteed +6 to damage be more beneficial than rolling an extra d6 anyways?


gravalpea wrote:
does vital strike and power attack work together with sneak attack (of 4d6)?

Yes, you can power attack during a vital strike and still gain sneak attack dice.

gravalpea wrote:
will power attack add its +6 bonus to every d6 I roll

No, you only gain the bonus damage once per attack.

Your damage, with Power Attack, Vital Strike, and sneak attack:

2d6 (greatsword) + 2d6 (vital strike) + 1d6 (shock) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 1 (Enhancement) + 4 (1.5 x STR mod) + 6 (Power Attack)

Total damage: 9d6 + 11

If you confirm a critical hit, the ONLY parts that double are the initial 2d6 for the greatsword, and the static damage at the end: 11d6+22

(Also, remember that a Rogue is not proficient with greatswords by default, so you'll need a feat or trait or other ability to be able to wield it without a -4 attack penalty)


Grick wrote:
gravalpea wrote:
does vital strike and power attack work together with sneak attack (of 4d6)?

Yes, you can power attack during a vital strike and still gain sneak attack dice.

gravalpea wrote:
will power attack add its +6 bonus to every d6 I roll

No, you only gain the bonus damage once per attack.

Your damage, with Power Attack, Vital Strike, and sneak attack:

2d6 (greatsword) + 2d6 (vital strike) + 1d6 (shock) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 1 (Enhancement) + 4 (1.5 x STR mod) + 6 (Power Attack)

Total damage: 9d6 + 11

If you confirm a critical hit, the ONLY parts that double are the initial 2d6 for the greatsword, and the static damage at the end: 11d6+22

(Also, remember that a Rogue is not proficient with greatswords by default, so you'll need a feat or trait or other ability to be able to wield it without a -4 attack penalty)

A more important question....

What Rogue worth his street cred wields a Great sword? Where you going to hide that thing? Not in your boot? Try tumbling past an apponent with a great sword strapped to your back!

: ) (smilie so you all know im trying to be funny)


Kalyth wrote:


A more important question....

What Rogue worth his street cred wields a Great sword? Where you going to hide that thing? Not in your boot? Try tumbling past an apponent with a great sword strapped to your back!

Pffft. Everyone can be a rogue with a tiny little dagger. Being a rogue with a greatsword, cunningly hiding and/or disguising it on your person to tumble past some flat-footed guards just to produce a huge, seven-foot-implement-of-pain seemingly out of thin air and going for the astonished enemy's tender parts - that's how you show you're a master!

Dark Archive

KaeYoss wrote:
Kalyth wrote:


A more important question....

What Rogue worth his street cred wields a Great sword? Where you going to hide that thing? Not in your boot? Try tumbling past an apponent with a great sword strapped to your back!

Pffft. Everyone can be a rogue with a tiny little dagger. Being a rogue with a greatsword, cunningly hiding and/or disguising it on your person to tumble past some flat-footed guards just to produce a huge, seven-foot-implement-of-pain seemingly out of thin air and going for the astonished enemy's tender parts - that's how you show you're a master!

Or a follower of Toon physics.. :P


well, this has been entertaining. ^_^

Thanks for the advice and clarifications all.

Scarab Sages

KaeYoss wrote:
Pffft. Everyone can be a rogue with a tiny little dagger. Being a rogue with a greatsword, cunningly hiding and/or disguising it on your person to tumble past some flat-footed guards just to produce a huge, seven-foot-implement-of-pain seemingly out of thin air and going for the astonished enemy's tender parts - that's how you show you're a master!

That is what the Sheath of Bladestealth is made for. (APG 309)


gravalpea wrote:

well, this has been entertaining. ^_^

Thanks for the advice and clarifications all.

It is an interesting concept, though I think I would stick with the TWF rogue, less feats at the start to get more damage.

BAB +6, Sneak Attack 4d6.
Feats : 2WF, I2WF, Double Slice ( If using 3.5 feats, for the 4th feat it would be Oversized 2WF CAdv, or Telling Blow)
Using 2 shortswords ( to keep with the same dice as a Great Sword). Both being +1, one with shock on it.
Attacks +7 /+7 / +1 / +1
Using the first 3 feats damage would be
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Shock) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Shock) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
So if all 4 hits land
4d6 + 16d6 + 2d6 + 12 + 4 or 22d6 + 16

I personally prefer those numbers to a single attack with Vital Strike.

Now don’t get me wrong I understand your going with concept and the greatsword / vital strike would be better for the quick kill on the 1 attack rounds. Though, overall a combo like this can be much more devastating.
Adding Oversized 2wf could provide larger weapons at the same penality, Ex. Longswords
Or
Adding Telling Blow will allow sneak attacks when you crit in non sneak attack situations allowing it to become rather useful.


Crestar wrote:
gravalpea wrote:

well, this has been entertaining. ^_^

Thanks for the advice and clarifications all.

It is an interesting concept, though I think I would stick with the TWF rogue, less feats at the start to get more damage.

BAB +6, Sneak Attack 4d6.
Feats : 2WF, I2WF, Double Slice ( If using 3.5 feats, for the 4th feat it would be Oversized 2WF CAdv, or Telling Blow)
Using 2 shortswords ( to keep with the same dice as a Great Sword). Both being +1, one with shock on it.
Attacks +7 /+7 / +1 / +1
Using the first 3 feats damage would be
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Shock) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Shock) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
1d6 (weapon) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 3 (Str) +1 (enhancement Bonus)
So if all 4 hits land
4d6 + 16d6 + 2d6 + 12 + 4 or 22d6 + 16

I personally prefer those numbers to a single attack with Vital Strike.

Now don’t get me wrong I understand your going with concept and the greatsword / vital strike would be better for the quick kill on the 1 attack rounds. Though, overall a combo like this can be much more devastating.
Adding Oversized 2wf could provide larger weapons at the same penality, Ex. Longswords
Or
Adding Telling Blow will allow sneak attacks when you crit in non sneak attack situations allowing it to become rather useful.

Greetings again all.

After reading this post, I have take this advice, but I am stumped on one thing: I know where 3 of the 4 attacks are coming from (1 with the main hand, 1 with off hand, 1 with off hand via improved two weapon fighting)so where is the 4th attack coming from and how (if not answered by the first part of the question).

Thanks again for the help all.

Sovereign Court

A Character gets two attacks with their primary hand normally when they have a BAB of +6, get a 3rd at +11, 4th at +16 etc...

So as you qualify for Improved, and Greater Two Weapon fighting and gain more off hand attacks you're also normally gaining primary hand attacks

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors


King of Vrock wrote:

A Character gets two attacks with their primary hand normally when they have a BAB of +6, get a 3rd at +11, 4th at +16 etc...

So as you qualify for Improved, and Greater Two Weapon fighting and gain more off hand attacks you're also normally gaining primary hand attacks

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors

Would these happen to be the same attack(s) which require a full round action to utilize?


gravalpea wrote:
Would these happen to be the same attack(s) which require a full round action to utilize?

Yes, all of the extra attacks due to high BAB and due to two weapon fighting require a full round action. That is one advantage of your greatsword/power attack/vital strike plan - only a standard action needed.


Eric Tillemans wrote:
gravalpea wrote:
Would these happen to be the same attack(s) which require a full round action to utilize?

Yes, all of the extra attacks due to high BAB and due to two weapon fighting require a full round action. That is one advantage of your greatsword/power attack/vital strike plan - only a standard action needed.

Ah, I see. Thanks, I appreciate the help.


You know, if I were a rogue blowing a feat on a weapon for extra damage so I could launch a devastating single atack, I would go for an elven curve blade. Base damage is less, but it's finesseable (you are a rogue, dex is likely better than strength), two handed (for bonus damage from strength and power attack) and has a better threat range.


[QUOTE\]
A more important question....

What Rogue worth his street cred wields a Great sword? Where you going to hide that thing? Not in your boot? Try tumbling past an apponent with a great sword strapped to your back!

: ) (smilie so you all know im trying to be funny)

the most bad a** one you know

+1 to your rouge sir go on with your bad self ;)


Sgm Kobold wrote:

[QUOTE\]

A more important question....

What Rogue worth his street cred wields a Great sword? Where you going to hide that thing? Not in your boot? Try tumbling past an apponent with a great sword strapped to your back!

: ) (smilie so you all know im trying to be funny)

the most bad a** one you know

+1 to your rouge sir go on with your bad self ;)

This makes me want to make a back-up rogue dressed in tattered rags* with a speed greatsword (6/1) utilizing vital-strike with sneak attack now... for grins of course. Thanks XD

*tattered rags because he couldn't afford any other equipment, even though he starts with a cheap outfit.


+1 to the elven curve blade. But if you are going brutish beatsticky rogue and must spend the feat to become proficient anyway.... may I interest you in a large bastard sword.... 2d8 damage at a -2 :-) with the feat you may use it one hand, so a large one you can use two handed :-)


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mr Dice Guy wrote:
+1 to the elven curve blade. But if you are going brutish beatsticky rogue and must spend the feat to become proficient anyway.... may I interest you in a large bastard sword.... 2d8 damage at a -2 :-) with the feat you may use it one hand, so a large one you can use two handed :-)

For a "brutish beatsticky rogue," you may as well be a half orc and use a falchion (Pathfinder RPG half orcs get proficiency with it for free). Granted, it's 2d4 instead of 2d6 (or 2d8). If you take a level or two in barbarian (fast movement and rage/rage powers), fighter (bonus feats), or ranger (favored enemy and combat style), you can use an orcish double axe (a martial weapon for half orcs) to switch between fighting with both ends (maximize number of attacks) or as a two handed weapon (maximize damage with a single attack) without needing to draw/drop a weapon. The 1d8/1d8 is a slight bump over a pair of short swords, although the two handed base damage is a bit lower than a falchion (although the base weapon damage is of secondary importance for a rogue most of the time).


@ Dragonchess -Touche!


For the Elven Curve Blade without a feat look at Swashbuckler Archtype and be an Elf. Elves get Curved Blades as a Martial and the Swashbuckler gets one free Martial Weapon Feat ;) (In addition to allowing him to take Combat Trick twice)

Just an idea ;)

GNOME


KaeYoss wrote:
Pffft. Everyone can be a rogue with a tiny little dagger. Being a rogue with a greatsword, cunningly hiding and/or disguising it on your person to tumble past some flat-footed guards just to produce a huge, seven-foot-implement-of-pain seemingly out of thin air and going for the astonished enemy's tender parts - that's how you show you're a master!

one of my fav. tricks i try to use in any campain is an item from the pathfinders players guide page 515:

pathfinders players guide wrote:

Glove of Storing

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th
Slot hands; Price 10,000 gp (one glove); Weight —
Description
This device is a single leather glove. On command, one item
held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can
weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in
one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With
a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A
glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the
item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within
the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are
not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove’s effect is
suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A
glove of storing uses up your entire hands slot. You may not use
another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the
hands slot.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Cost 5,000 gp


Sowde Da'aro wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Pffft. Everyone can be a rogue with a tiny little dagger. Being a rogue with a greatsword, cunningly hiding and/or disguising it on your person to tumble past some flat-footed guards just to produce a huge, seven-foot-implement-of-pain seemingly out of thin air and going for the astonished enemy's tender parts - that's how you show you're a master!

one of my fav. tricks i try to use in any campain is an item from the pathfinders players guide page 515:

pathfinders players guide wrote:

Glove of Storing

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 6th
Slot hands; Price 10,000 gp (one glove); Weight —
Description
This device is a single leather glove. On command, one item
held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can
weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in
one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With
a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A
glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the
item is a free action. The item is shrunk down so small within
the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are
not suppressed, but continue to expire. If the glove’s effect is
suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. A
glove of storing uses up your entire hands slot. You may not use
another item (even another glove of storing) that also uses the
hands slot.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, shrink item; Cost 5,000 gp

I was looking at that item a few days ago, and seeing it in that context, I really like that idea. :)


Kalyth wrote:


A more important question....

What Rogue worth his street cred wields a Great sword? Where you going to hide that thing? Not in your boot? Try tumbling past an apponent with a great sword strapped to your back!

You hide it in your beard because you are a dwarf, you would use a great axe but you lost it while killing that pesky tarrasque.


What'd be better is of his great sword had two handed throwing, he could chuck that thing within his 30feet and pull off a sneak attack vital strike...getting snuck up on by a thrown great sword...lol


Some guy dancing in a circle over in the shadows, looks like he's about to throw a shot put, and all you see is a massive blade fly forth from the darkness


Is it just me or has there been a rash of ~4 year bumps as of late?

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