MRblahface |
Ok I just got the Bestiary 2, err, In PDF form. Book forum soon. I am sure this has been talked about, But what I am talking about Is the Non-Hit dice races, I.E. Tiefling, Aasmar, Goblin, Kobold, Damphir, Sylph, So on and so on you get the idea. I am not talking about a full 300+ book like the RPG line, but kinda In the same light as the elf's of Golarion. Maybe on the Pathfinder Campaign Setting or the Pathfinder Player Companion, Maybe each page or two of the book details one of the races in detail, and includes all of the "(insert race here) as characters" (From as of now) Both Bestiary's also maybe some new playable races. Would this be some what remotely possible? The reason I ask is I like to play Different then human characters. I mean Humans are cool because we are all humans but in general Its fun to play a giant talking bird. I do know there are some other 3rd party books like this but this is a way to give a Damphir or Sylph or a "whatever" To give it fluff and more chance for players something other then the "7" core races. What do you all think?
Dark_Mistress |
It's been brought up before. I think it really depends on how well the books as whole sell. I would imagine they will do something after humans though in that line. Unless it has just been really unpopular. But I agree seeing more info on them would be cool. With so many they might need to collect them to cover a few per book. Since most of them won't have cultures all of their own.
LazarX |
+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
Golarion is a bit more of a "serious" world as apposed to a "furry" one so the number of PC races isn't going to be that large.
Gorbacz |
Golarion, the default PF campaign world is anthropocentric, and there aren't a great deal of demi/semi human races running around. There are no "giant talking birds" walking down the streets of major cities. The problem is, such book would be expected to deal with culture and place in the world of such races (see Races of ... series), and in Golarion there isn't that much place for that.
StarMartyr365 |
StarMartyr365 wrote:Golarion is a bit more of a "serious" world as apposed to a "furry" one so the number of PC races isn't going to be that large.+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
What does wanting a little variety, something different from the same old fantasy tropes have to do with people who dress up as stuffed animals?
SM
MRblahface |
Golarion, the default PF campaign world is anthropocentric, and there aren't a great deal of demi/semi human races running around. There are no "giant talking birds" walking down the streets of major cities. The problem is, such book would be expected to deal with culture and place in the world of such races (see Races of ... series), and in Golarion there isn't that much place for that.
I pointed out Giant talking Birds because As of current I am playing as a Tengu alchemist from the first bestiary. And Most of the races are descended from humans, hence living with humans. Maybe this would give a chance for Paizo to make the kobold and goblin a little more pc friendly.
F. Wesley Schneider Contributor |
Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races. It also follows the Player Companions' trend with its subseries of Orcs, Elves, Humans, etc. of Golarion. We've got some ideas for this topic coming up in 2011, but not in as broad a scope as discussed here. But a world and player focused race bestiary Player Companion... hum.
Dark_Mistress |
Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races. It also follows the Player Companions' trend with its subseries of Orcs, Elves, Humans, etc. of Golarion. We've got some ideas for this topic coming up in 2011, but not in as broad a scope as discussed here. But a world and player focused race bestiary Player Companion... hum.
Do it, you know you want to.
martinaj |
Gorbacz wrote:Maybe this would give a chance for Paizo to make the kobold and goblin a little more pc friendly.I really hope they don't. Over the last decade the game has been getting more and more politically correct towards the monstrous races, which I think is pretty ridiculous. By the time we saw 4th edition, kobolds were nothing but poor victimized bufoons and goblins were more misunderstood than they were evil. Paizo has made the monsters monstrous again, and personally, I'd like to see them stay that way.
Ambrosia Slaad |
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races. It also follows the Player Companions' trend with its subseries of Orcs, Elves, Humans, etc. of Golarion. We've got some ideas for this topic coming up in 2011, but not in as broad a scope as discussed here. But a world and player focused race bestiary Player Companion... hum.Do it, you know you want to.
Yeah, all the cool kids are. :)
F. Wesley Schneider Contributor |
StarMartyr365 |
Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races. It also follows the Player Companions' trend with its subseries of Orcs, Elves, Humans, etc. of Golarion. We've got some ideas for this topic coming up in 2011, but not in as broad a scope as discussed here. But a world and player focused race bestiary Player Companion... hum.
This is exactly what I'm looking for!
I like having a wide range of PC races to work with as a DM and a Player. Even if I don't use them in my Pathfinder game I recycle them into the science fantasy space opera game that is slowly but surely lurching along.
SM
joela |
+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
Aren't there plenty of third-party supps for such variants? And why not use all the 3.x stuff and update it to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game? The game's backward-compatibility is one of its selling features.
Uriel393 |
StarMartyr365 wrote:Golarion is a bit more of a "serious" world as apposed to a "furry" one so the number of PC races isn't going to be that large.+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
The desire to play something a bit off the beaten track in no way translates as 'furry'.Campaign styles vary, as do player tastes.
We had a player who cracked furry jokes whenever the party met a satyr,centaur or what-not. He no longer plays with us. Serious enough for you? Yes, he was also a Power-Gamer, unhappy unless he was 'optimized', but the other players didn't like the constant out of game cracks either.Official rules for the things that some of us have been home-brewing for years (Decades in my case) would be nice. Lizardmen, Gnolls, even some of the Fey races.
For instance, in my Kingmaker game, the Lizardmen village has become a political focal point (Them not wanting to be assimilated, while the surrounding lands are being annexed). The Fey of the woods to the West of the PCs capitol are banding together in a similar mindset. Someone asked if they could play a Lizardman, possibly as a political liaison to the new Realm.
-Uriel
KnightErrantJR |
I think "pulp" is a better description than "serious." If you look at Fritz Leiber's Fafhard and Grey Mouser stories, for example, there were other humanoid races that were numerous in some areas (like the ghouls), but they weren't as common as humans, and weren't too powerful compared to humans or considered the "baseline."
LazarX |
LazarX wrote:StarMartyr365 wrote:Golarion is a bit more of a "serious" world as apposed to a "furry" one so the number of PC races isn't going to be that large.+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
What does wanting a little variety, something different from the same old fantasy tropes have to do with people who dress up as stuffed animals?
SM
Because it's a slippery slope towards making Golarion.... Everquest.
MRblahface |
MRblahface Who says the races are mostly decended from human...
or is that just in your campaign :)
I will try to be as clear as I can. Most of the stuff that I type of say comes up all messed up. No, I was talking about "MOST" of the player races or "(insert race here) as characters". The non Hit monsters from both bestiarys are "mostly" descended from humans, IE Aasmar, Tiefling, Dhampir, Ifrit, Slyph, Oread, and the Undine. And it says in the wright ups that they are half or have "so and so" Blood to get them to posses that ability that they have. Thats what I was trying to say.
and as a side note The goblin and Kobold probably would and should get there own book. Ie goblins of Golarion.
Apethae |
What does wanting a little variety, something different from the same old fantasy tropes have to do with people who dress up as stuffed animals?SM
I pointed out Giant talking Birds...
I bring it up every time something like this is mentioned but please give me catfolk (or similar) That is all
4. "Humanocentric." Yes, one of the game designers actually used the H-word on the forums (and yes, I do consider it a dirty word). Aren't we tired of Lord of the Rings yet? It's 20-freaking-10, and tons of people like playing exotic and/or bestial races. Deal with it.
Etc. Cuz however many times the designers point out that Golarion is designed very specifically as a largely low-to-mid-level human-dominated setting, where the other races presented (elves, dwarves, etc) are supposed to somewhat exotic and rare, people who want to play their favorite variety of anthropomorphized fuzzy woodland creature.
To which I can only reiterate the only logical response:
Aren't there plenty of third-party supps for such variants?
Rock on with your bad human-lovin' self, Paizo. Rock on.
Foghammer |
I respect the desire to have new playable races to broaden the character concepts. However, I also respect what Paizo is trying to do with their product and feel that if they were not doing so, we probably wouldn't be fans of Pathfinder.
An idea that came to mind while reading this thread was that perhaps Paizo could release some simple templates that can modify ANY playable (presumably humanoid) race to give the desired effects and place it in the next Bestiary. Then it doesn't take up space in the line-up for the year in some unnecessary supplement that will be hit-or-miss.
From a personal standpoint, I would love to see more options for playable races... Not more playable race options, more options FOR playable races... see the difference?
Templates are good. I love templates.
juanpsantiagoXIV |
Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races.
Why are hobgoblins not a viable player race? I've had a couple of players run hobgoblins...and bugbears, and goblins, and minotaurs, and so forth.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races.Why are hobgoblins not a viable player race? I've had a couple of players run hobgoblins...and bugbears, and goblins, and minotaurs, and so forth.
In Golarion? Because the assumption is that hobgoblins are the bad guys.
If a GM wants to open up the available PC races to other zero HD races, though, which ones are viable are up to him. If you're running a game set in Golarion, though, allowing things like PC hobgoblins will mean you'll need to either adjust your version of Golarion, or that PC will find himself/herself in awkward situations whenever folks go to a human settlement to, say, rest or shop.
F. Wesley Schneider Contributor |
F. Wesley Schneider wrote:Handling a concept like this as a Pathfinder Player Companion is an interesting idea, and much more appealing to me than trying to do a book where hobgoblins and black puddings are treated as though they were equally viable player races.Why are hobgoblins not a viable player race? I've had a couple of players run hobgoblins...and bugbears, and goblins, and minotaurs, and so forth.
"Equally" viable.
Uriel393 |
In Golarion? Because the assumption is that hobgoblins are the bad guys.
Does this hold true for both Kobolds and Lizardmen?
Both of these are presented (In Kingmaker) as more than just 'bad guys to kill'.
When confronted with the Kobolds, non-violent methods (And helping them)are an option to overcome the encounter with them. Likewise, the Lizardmen can also be dealt with in a manner that isn't just killing them for XP.
I understand that the 'Ugly Goblinoids=Evil/Bad is a mold that is very hard to break. We have had that in Gaming since it's inception, as well as in the literature that inspired it, as well as the Mythologies of our ancestors.
However, some of us like to shake things up a bit with Alignment, for instance.
If there are evil Gnomes, then why not Good Orcs?
Perhaps your (The creators,so you 'win' any debate,obviously) vision of Golarion holds that Hobgoblins are bad, and I accept this.
But, as System designers, outside of how your World Cosmology works, would it be beyond Paizo's scope to put out a book detailing optional PC write-ups for them?
-Uriel
StarMartyr365 |
StarMartyr365 wrote:Aren't there plenty of third-party supps for such variants? And why not use all the 3.x stuff and update it to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game? The game's backward-compatibility is one of its selling features.+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
I have lots of those and the Race Creation Cookbook. They come in very handy.
However, I love spending money on Paizo. I love all the hard work and creativity that goes into their products. The * Revised stuff is awesome to me because they put their own spin on some tired tropes while still respecting tradition. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears were just generic fodder until I read Paizo's take on them. The look on the players faces when the goblins suddenly started dropping Molotov cocktails on them was classic.
Player: "Where the Hell did they get alchemist fire from?!"
Me: "They brewed it just like everybody else. Goblins love setting things on fire. Like your mage for instance."
They survived but will never blindly rush into a goblin lair thinking "they're just a bunch of punks...we'll wipe the floor with them."
I would absolutely buy a book of 0-level races. Give me a two page spread on each race and keep it setting neutral like the core books and I'll buy hard and soft copies of it.
The short of it is this:
The only thing that I love more than Paizo's work is spending money on Piazo. This is a product that I would love to see done up by Paizo.
SM
Dark_Mistress |
Dark_Mistress wrote:Mine is Zombie Taft.Shadewest wrote:Hobgoblins are a mechanically viable PC race, with just a little work. Black puddings, not so much. The rules in Savage Species treated them basically the same. Paizo doesn't want to do that.Chocolate Pudding is my arch nemesis.
Yes but one bite of mine and I violently projectile vomit. It is horrible.
Uriel393 |
joela wrote:StarMartyr365 wrote:Aren't there plenty of third-party supps for such variants? And why not use all the 3.x stuff and update it to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game? The game's backward-compatibility is one of its selling features.+1
I don't go with a 'human centric' norm so I like lots of variant PC races.
I book like this that had maybe a page or two for each race would be an immediate buy from me. PDF and paper.
I'm not looking for a Savage Species. That's a whole different discussion.
SM
I have lots of those and the Race Creation Cookbook. They come in very handy.
However, I love spending money on Paizo. I love all the hard work and creativity that goes into their products. The * Revised stuff is awesome to me because they put their own spin on some tired tropes while still respecting tradition. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears were just generic fodder until I read Paizo's take on them. The look on the players faces when the goblins suddenly started dropping Molotov cocktails on them was classic.
Player: "Where the Hell did they get alchemist fire from?!"
Me: "They brewed it just like everybody else. Goblins love setting things on fire. Like your mage for instance."They survived but will never blindly rush into a goblin lair thinking "they're just a bunch of punks...we'll wipe the floor with them."
I would absolutely buy a book of 0-level races. Give me a two page spread on each race and keep it setting neutral like the core books and I'll buy hard and soft copies of it.
The short of it is this:
The only thing that I love more than Paizo's work is spending money on Piazo. This is a product that I would love to see done up by Paizo.SM
+1 on the Setting-Neutral Book.
Also, the 'Goblins love setting things on fire' made me chuckle.-Uriel
Deidre Tiriel |
I would also like to see a "Unusual Races of Golarion" book.
Goblins may be very evil & insane in Golarion, but they might be able to be reformed. I've played in a game that had a goblin npc loyal to a party member, and ran one with 2 kobolds loyal to the players (they got rid of them fairly quickly, though.)
They don't have to go to villages. They can fight in the wilderness. Think of the Goblins Webcomic! ( www.goblinscomic.com )
It would be nice to see a book for all of the races that have a "... Characters" paragraph in the bestiary. (ex. Goblin Characters pg. 156)
Part of this could have an advice section on what it's like to play an unusual race - how they are treated and what some obstacles are going to be.
There could also be a section that has traits that "balance" the new races with the core races - ala Tieflings in the Council of Thieves Players Guide/AP.
I don't think there will be a setting-neutral book because it would be a Companion - which is Golarion specific.
Besides, they are in the Bestiary, and I want to know how Paizo views these races that they've already given rules for.
Dragnmoon |
Dragnmoon wrote:I think an Alternate Race book would better fit in the RPG line, which is setting neutral.But they basically have that already in the Bestiary & Bestiary 2. Why do they need to reprint the same thing?
I am thinking of a Savage Species type book.
A Goblinoid Revisited book would be nice for Pathfinder Campaign Setting book.
Kthulhu |
They have repeatedly said that if they do ever do a Monsterous Humanoids as PCs book, it is in the far nebulous future, along with epic levels and psionics.
I think they did hint that they might do Player's Companion books for Goblins of Golarion and Kobolds of Golarion fairly recently, which would probably expand on the Bestiary information about using those two races as PCs.
Kor - Orc Scrollkeeper |
I will also throw my interest in for a pc races book, but with one caveat. Please also keep a "balanced" race comparison system. In 3.5, they did that with a "Level Adjustment" mechanic -- which I think worked well. I do beleive this was a fair mechanic as it reduced a DM's need to try to make a judgement call on racial balance (i.e. the drow noble -- definately not a "balanced" race without a LA).
Matthew Morris RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 |
I've wanted a 'Bastards of Golarion' (half-elves really didn't get a write up in Elves of Golarion, and Half orcs need love too) for some time. Yeah, a more 'PC' title would be needed, 'Mongrels of Golarion,' anyone?
Aside "Matt's Golarion"
To make a Barsoom type breakdown,
Litorian = Red Martian
Sibercai = Green Martians
Azlanti survivors = White Martians
Elves = Yellow Martians
I've not had a need to make a 'black martian' race.
Basically, I'd like to see the more 'inhuman' races be populating different worlds/demiplanes. That way you could have the PCs/NPCs the party encounter remain exotic as being 'out of place'.
Troubled_child |
Although those people who want this to be setting neutral will kill me for suggesting this I think it should be linked to the world guides. This allows you to have more choice in races and maintain the idea that they are exotic. For instance I am hoping Tengu will receive some love in the Tian Xia world guide.
QuixoticDan |
While it would be very handy to have all the 'X as a Character' entries in one book, and I do so thoroughly enjoy giving my money to Paizo, as was pointed out this may not be the best option for Paizo to print. Since nearly everything non-Golarion is open content, this is a great candidate for third-party publishers; I feel the best format would probably be a web page rather than hard copy, so it can be updated with any other stat blocks that get added on later in the plethora of products Paizo publishes.
There is at least some market for it; I had a couple 4e players tell me they really liked the huge variety of races and classes available in 4e. In addition, most of the old AD&D gamers I play with ask to play a monster race first thing (or a specific sub-variant core race, such as a flying elf).
Laying uncharted beneath all this type of discussion is the idea of racial levels as transformation (I really, really loved this about Malhavoc Press' Arcana Evolved). Whenever a player tells me he wants to play as a vampire (or a werewolf, or a ninja weretiger), rather than slapping him with the template and making his new favorite character disappear until the rest of the party catches up, I write up a 6-8 level progression describing his long, slow transformation. This also gives me an excuse to play with the abilities quite a bit (making the vampire neutral but still undead, and keeping the ninja weretiger from becoming an NPC during transformation like it says in the template description). Finally, the other players are a little less miffed about the increase in supernatural powers, because they've been leveling up the whole time and the transformed player's class levels haven't moved (they also enjoy when I take advantage of new tactical weaknesses, like pitting the vampire against a cult of multiclass clerics; once they began brandishing holy symbols, the vampire couldn't melee any of them and had to rely on his 'less-powerful' friends to take them out).
In short, good idea for someone else to print.
Jeremy Mcgillan |
This reminds me of one of my earliest games as a DM. My brother was playing a Troll PC.
Brother: So I enter the town.
Me: Correction you try to enter the town but you see a bunch of armed villagers at the entrance with weapons pitchforks, torches, and whatever else they can improvise as weapons waiting for you.
Brother: Wait, that's not fair I'm a good troll and how else am I supposed to shop?
Me: First off they don't know your a good troll since every other troll they've met has tried to eat them. And second you'll get shopping done the same way every other troll does, by scavenging stuff off corpses.