As a side-project from my work on d20pfsrd.com, I have started an off-shoot of the Pathfinder/d20 system. It has begun to spin to something I'm starting to like. I know there are several people here who, like me, really enjoy coming up with variant rules and systems so I'd like to see if anyone is interested in helping develop some of the concepts I have begun to lay the groundwork for.
You can see the beginning of it at https://sites.google.com/site/d20openrpg/
There's too much to give a truly representative summary here but I'll give it a shot.
I'm removing "most" class abilities from most classes and making them "Talents" instead and then putting those talents into a big pool that players can construct more free-form characters out of.
The "Talent" pool is in a great state of flux at the moment. Nothing is concrete. I'm still pulling stuff out and rewording to not be class-specific etc.
Also, ultimately this system will be 100% OGC and will not operate under the Paizo Community Use Policy so I am actively removing all content that would not be legal in that scenario.
Anyway, if you have anything constructive to add or would like to help bounce ideas around, shoot me an email at jreyst@gmail.com
Last note: This has nothing to do with other collaborators on d20pfsrd.com and this is purely a side-project I am playing around with but would like to get real traction with.
Looks interesting :) not sure i have the time to help properly but a quick suggestion would be to break the casting talents up into groups of 3 levels allowing for partial casters.
Looks interesting :) not sure i have the time to help properly but a quick suggestion would be to break the casting talents up into groups of 3 levels allowing for partial casters.
As I (we? got some fast sign-ups already!) are in the earliest stages of working out how this will work, your ideas are great. I/we probably will do something along those lines.
I'm excited to see how/where this goes!
Sounds like you need to speak to Kirth and TOZ; this sounds very much like what they've been doing, with the martial classes, at least.
Funny you should mention that... I was looking for a way to contact them to see if they wanted to join forces but couldn't find any emails and I didn't want to spam threads asking for them to contact me. I finally decided I'd just throw this out there and hope they saw it :)
We're getting some good interest in this. If anyone else wants to participate in helping design a 100% OGL, fan-made/maintained d20 system, here's your chance.
Shoot an email to the address in the first post if you want to help out in any way at all!
I'll give this a look when I get a chance over the holidays. I like the sound of it though!
Haven't really asked for playtesting yet as we're still heavily in the construction phase. Any playtesting at this point would be pointless as the furniture is still moving around so much.
I'd guess that in a few weeks we'll start asking for some detailed feedback and will provide online forms for organized responses etc.
Still like to hear what people think "along the way" though, meaning, if its looking good, let us know. If its looking completely unappealing, let us know.
We really want this to be a community project.
Lot's of updates... deep digging going on... interested in folks impressions thus far.
If you think we're way off base, feel free to say so.
If you think we're about to strike gold, tell us to keep digging :)
Lot's of updates... deep digging going on... interested in folks impressions thus far.
If you think we're way off base, feel free to say so.
If you think we're about to strike gold, tell us to keep digging :)
My initial thoughts:
You have good building blocks, but I think your talent system is ripe for abuse, and is not balanced well at all. For example: How many TP does it cost for Spell Casting (Prepared - Arcane), Spell Casting (Prepared - Divine), Spell Casting (Spontaneous - Arcane), and Spell Casting (Spontaneous - Divine)? 12, am I right, so that still gives me 3 TP to play with and I can cast every spell in the game pretty much.
I like the modular design. I think getting rid of classes entirely and just having a pool to buy features from is cool. I just don't think that particular set-up will work well, once people actually start designing characters.
I also think in some instances you kind of threw out the baby with the bath water. What about starting everyone off with 2 poor and 1 Good saving throw, and 1/2 BAB, and then make people upgrade from there. I'd try to keep familiar concepts like BAB, HD, and Saves as intact as possible.
I'd love to help you out with your project, it has a lot of potential. the hard part is going to be creating a talent system that allows people to make all the core classes, allows people to tweak classes (like a Wizard with favored Enemy instead of Scribe scroll or a Fighter with Hide in Plain Sight), without allowing players to create uber characters that are far more powerful than the core classes.
You have good building blocks, but I think your talent system is ripe for abuse, and is not balanced well at all.
Oh I readily admit it needs work... which is what I'm doing here :) The entire "costing" system is way up in the air at the moment which is why I'm looking for feedback on it.
For example: How many TP does it cost for Spell Casting (Prepared - Arcane), Spell Casting (Prepared - Divine), Spell Casting (Spontaneous - Arcane), and Spell Casting (Spontaneous - Divine)? 12, am I right, so that still gives me 3 TP to play with and I can cast every spell in the game pretty much.
I haven't added it yet but the intention is to have some "limiters" such as "no more than one Major Talent per level" or "you can not gain a Talent and its Prerequisite in the same level" and also, I haven't gotten there yet but I plan to have a levels of the various spell casting talents to represent access to the next level of spells etc. Meaning, when you get Spell Casting 1 (Prepared - Divine) you get access to just 1st level spells. When you get Spell Casting 2 (Prepared - Divine) you get access to 2nd level spells. Then, if I say that you can only gain Major Talents at odd levels, then you could only gain each level of spell casting at the same progression as it is now, ie, 1,3,5,7,9 etc.
I like the modular design. I think getting rid of classes entirely and just having a pool to buy features from is cool. I just don't think that particular set-up will work well, once people actually start designing characters.
Yeah I love the idea too and we have about a half dozen people working in the various pieces now. Hopefully with enough discussion we can nail down these valid concerns.
I also think in some instances you kind of threw out the baby with the bath water. What about starting everyone off with 2 poor and 1 Good saving throw, and 1/2 BAB, and then make people upgrade from there. I'd try to keep familiar concepts like BAB, HD, and Saves as intact as possible.
I know what you're saying but I think I just wanted to "flatten" the core of everything down to the most common elements then let people customize from there. I always HATED having the saving throws be forced on me in certain increments. If I want a fighter who is great at will saves but sucks at Fort saves for pete's sake let me do it. This way, I can.
I'd love to help you out with your project, it has a lot of potential. the hard part is going to be creating a talent system that allows people to make all the core classes, allows people to tweak classes (like a Wizard with favored Enemy instead of Scribe scroll or a Fighter with Hide in Plain Sight), without allowing players to create uber characters that are far more powerful than the core classes.
100% agree. Therein lies the rub as they say. I think everyone can dream of such a system, thats the easy part. The hard part is making it work. I have no delusions that its there right now. We're in pre-pre-pre alpha phase :) but we prefer to hear feedback early and often instead of throw something out then get feedback and have to back pedal. Since we're wide open all along the way we can get all the feedback and suggestions and corrections we want/need.
Thanks for taking the time to look it over and offer some well-founded comments. I look forward to hearing more from you along the way!
I haven't added it yet but the intention is to have some "limiters" such as "no more than one Major Talent per level" or "you can not gain a Talent and its Prerequisite in the same level" and also, I haven't gotten there yet but I plan to have a levels of the various spell casting talents to represent access to the next level of spells etc. Meaning, when you get Spell Casting 1 (Prepared - Divine) you get access to just 1st level spells. When you get Spell Casting 2 (Prepared - Divine) you get access to 2nd level spells. Then, if I say that you can only gain Major Talents at odd levels, then you could only gain each level of spell casting at the same progression as it is now, ie, 1,3,5,7,9 etc.
How about cutting all the meat and potatoes out of each class (like spellcasting, Full BAB, Wildshape) and making them a new category of talents called "core talents".
These would be talents that were only available at 1st Level, that would form the core of the character. Then you could cost them so that you could only have so many combinations, and you could control better how players could mix up the classes.
I think you want to cost things so that you can't get Full Wizard spells, Full BAB, +1 to all Saves, and +8 HP. Right now you have the feat Silent Spell costing the same as Spellcasting, and even if that only gives you first level spells the costs are still not equal.
I know what you're saying but I think I just wanted to "flatten" the core of everything down to the most common elements then let people customize from there. I always HATED having the saving throws be forced on me in certain increments. If I want a fighter who is great at will saves but sucks at Fort saves for pete's sake let me do it. This way, I can.
You could give every character Good, Poor, Poor saving throws, and still let them decide which one is the Good one.
I like the idea of "flattening" the core as well, but unless you are trying to get rid of levels as well as class you might want to think of keeping some of the basic charts of level progression.
If you started every character with the default attributes of:
1/2 BAB
Good, Poor, Poor Saving Throws
1d4 HD
Simple Weapon Prof.
No Armor Prof.
2+ Int Mod. Skill Points
That's pretty flat.
Right now 1 point of BAB cost 1 TP, that's only 1/15th of your starting allotment. Every first level character will have a +1 BAB.
I'm also not real fond of the way SAGA did skills. I like skill ranks. But that's just my opinion.
I like the idea of "flattening" the core as well, but unless you are trying to get rid of levels as well as class you might want to think of keeping some of the basic charts of level progression.
If you started every character with the default attributes of:
1/2 BAB
Good, Poor, Poor Saving Throws
1d4 HD
Simple Weapon Prof.
No Armor Prof.
2+ Int Mod. Skill PointsThat's pretty flat.
Right now 1 point of BAB cost 1 TP, that's only 1/15th of your starting allotment. Every first level character will have a +1 BAB.I'm also not real fond of the way SAGA did skills. I like skill ranks. But that's just my opinion.
1d4 hp would be pointless and a little archaic, nothing uses it anymore. Go with 1d6, even commoners get 1d6. 1d6 is tied with 1/2 BAB. So maybe tie BAB and HD size increases. This makes it a more expensive parcel so you less likely to have great spellcasting and it, or a strange combo like Full bab, 1d6 HD.
I'd actually suggest you set all saves to 1/2 level, and let people take Great Fortitiude etc. to make good saves. This isn't a massive boost at low levels, but stops a huge drift between good and bad saves at high levels. Or if you want a bigger difference make bad saves 1/2 with -1 at 5th and 10th levsl, and good saves 1/2 + 2. Keeps a stiff difference, but more maneagable.
First, thanks for the detailed responses. It looks like you really spent some time checking it out. I appreciate it!
How about cutting all the meat and potatoes out of each class (like spellcasting, Full BAB, Wildshape) and making them a new category of talents called "core talents".
Well I have cut them out but have not separated them into a different category. I will be considering doing exactly that while I continue working to rebuild core classes using this system. If I conclude that its effectively impossible to create a reasonable facsimile of existing classes using one set number of either talent points (such as, "everyone gets 15 TP at first level"), or a set number of talents themselves (such as, "everyone gets two major talents, three talents, and five minor talents at first level") then I'll be looking at ways to move things around. Ultimately I need the math to work out so that anyone can, if they wish, create an almost exact copy of a core class. However, as Jason has said with the words of power concept, with great flexibility sometimes also comes certain limitations. For instance, if I give everyone the same number (of whatever) then one class may not be exactly the same as they are in core rules (perhaps a tiny bit weaker or stronger) whereas at successive levels they may be substantially MORE powerful. I am comparing how saving throws work out right now with this and some classes initially start out weaker but then quickly end up with significantly higher saves. Obviously that area needs balancing out.
These would be talents that were only available at 1st Level, that would form the core of the character. Then you could cost them so that you could only have so many combinations, and you could control better how players could mix up the classes.
Well the problem you run into there is, say I say that Spell Casting 1 (Arcane-Prepared) is only available at level 1. Then no one could ever effectively "multi-class" into a prepared caster later. However, I am not fundamentally opposed to some things being done that way as a balancing/limiting factor.
I think you want to cost things so that you can't get Full Wizard spells, Full BAB, +1 to all Saves, and +8 HP. Right now you have the feat Silent Spell costing the same as Spellcasting, and even if that only gives you first level spells the costs are still not equal.
Oh, 100% agree lol. That is not the intention :)
As for the ability to cast spells without somatic components ("Ignore Magic Component" Major Talent) being equal to 1st level spell casting, well yes, that's how it is at the moment. I could consider reducing Ignore Magic Component down to being a Talent, but it is still a very strong Talent to have since in this system (like in Kirth's house rules) spells with material and somatic components can not be cast in a round in which the caster moves (working out the details on the wording of it) so this would effectively become an almost must-have Talent for any spellcaster who casts such spells. Mind you he would have to gain it twice to completely bypass that limitation, which is essentially the same as two feats if this was a Talent instead of a Major Talent. I dunno, right now I guess I'm on the fence with it. I'd be open to suggestions either way.
You could give every character Good, Poor, Poor saving throws, and still let them decide which one is the Good one.
Yeah, and I may end up going that route. Right now I like the "idea" of being able to allocate on a +1 by +1 basis but that may be too granular and ripe for abuse. As I said, I'm still in the phase of reconstructing and "costing" the abilities, and your feedback is critical to helping me consider how to go about that so I appreciate this sort of response :)
I like the idea of "flattening" the core as well, but unless you are trying to get rid of levels as well as class you might want to think of keeping some of the basic charts of level progression.
Well to be honest when I started that wasn't one of my goals but as I have progressed it just has become more and more obvious how easy that would be to accomplish. Just move to "you get X Talent(s) or Talent Points at every Y sessions." so it ends up lending itself well to a "level-less" concept. Not saying that's the ultimate end-point but its looking more possible/probable as I go forward.
If you started every character with the default attributes of:
1/2 BAB
Good, Poor, Poor Saving Throws
1d4 HD
Simple Weapon Prof.
No Armor Prof.
2+ Int Mod. Skill PointsThat's pretty flat.
Right now 1 point of BAB cost 1 TP, that's only 1/15th of your starting allotment. Every first level character will have a +1 BAB.
Right now characters start with:
+0 BAB
+4 to divine among saves as desired
1d4 "Base Hit Points"
No weapon proficiencies
No armor proficiencies
Which is certainly flatter than what you propose.
I'm also not real fond of the way SAGA did skills. I like skill ranks. But that's just my opinion.
Well I don't mean to implement the system so much as the choices of what skills there are. I like Endurance and Initiative as skills, which is also something Kirth did in his house rules. I am not a fan of flat skill progression and strongly favor allowing players to play around with the numbers.
The domain name now points to the site and it is accessible via http://www.d20openrpg.com/
There have been lot's of updates as I've been ingesting much of the house rules information created by Kirth Gersen as well as merging in ideas from some other game systems.
Highlights:
- Archetypes are meant to be preconstructed "classes"
- Talents replaces Traits, Feats, and Class Features since there are...
- No Classes Woot Woot!
- Surprise (no surprise rounds)
- Initiative (is a skill)
- Endurance (is a skill)
- Concealment (no more miss chance)
- Movement and Speed (and effects of encumbrance and difficult terrain)
- Simple, Martial, and Exotic Attack Types (and the non-proficient penalties thereof)
- Base Hit Points & Bonus Hit Points allow for some interesting mechanics
- New Conditions (Defensive, Emboldened, Encumbered, degrees of Fatigued, Flanked, Grappled & Grappling, Spellbound, Unconscious, Wounded)
- Cleaned up Combat Maneuver details
- Added features to existing maneuvers, added new maneuvers
- Created "Special Combat Actions" section...
- Significant re-wording of Movement and Positioning text
- Added different Chase rules
- Changed Darkvision and Low-light vision to work like Star Wars Saga rules.
- Metamagic: Pulled out the core PF mechanics and replaced with those created by Mark Chance of Spes Magna Games.
- Ritual Magic: Not on the site yet as its still being hashed out amongst the crew in Google Docs.
Reminder: This is meant to be 100% FREE and community maintained. If you would like to get involved, just send me an email (jreyst@gmail.com)
Disclaimer: There's still a massive amount to do, including continuing to work out the costs for Talents and how they should be awarded to players. The mechanism described on the Archetypes pages now is ONLY FOR development purposes and is not meant to be final. We are fully reconstructing all of the "core" classes through 20 levels to determine how they would cost, and then will use the findings to generate the rate at which Talents can be obtained etc.
Lastly, we need help! Want to help design a full OGL next-generation game that is basically classless and levelless? Let me know!
A substantial amount of work has been done (and continues) on d20openrpg.com. Come on over and check out where we're headed!
Giant Disclaimer
STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION! NOTHING IS FINAL!
Highlights of Combat Page:
- Changed Surprise so there is no surprise round. Combatants who fail to notice enemies suffer a -20 penalty to their initiative (borrowed from a Paizo poster)
- Flat-footed is a condition.
- Flanked is a condition.
- Three attack types, simple, martial, and advanced.
- Simplified wording throughout.
- Critical Thresholds.
Combat > Actions (Action Points in Combat)
Highlights of Combat Actions Page:
- All actions cost Action points to perform, allowing for a wider degree of flexibility and additional uses, such as costing action points to perform other tasks (like exchanging for Dodge bonuses to your AC.)
Highlights of Magic Page:
- Spells are Talents
- All Mental abilities are important to spell casters (borrowed from a poster on the Kirthfinder threads :) )
General Highlights Overall
- Feats, Skills, Saving Throws, Class Abilities, Spells, are all Talents.
- There are no classes in this system. You construct a PC by choosing an assortment of Talents.
We're always looking for others interested in the classless concept who might want to help on this. If you find this interesting feel free to send me an email to join the team!