The crafting rules require you to divide by zero if you have to craft an item with no cost (like a club, quarterstaff or sling). You can work around this by using the price of a comparable item.
For example - The party is up against skeletons, but none of them have blunt weapons, so they get the idea to rummage around the woods and make themselves some clubs and quarterstaffs. While clubs and such have no listed cost, implying they are free, a random tree branch is nevertheless still an improvised weapon. A quaterstaff, or sling, or even a club (think baseball bat) is a crafted thing, so they'll to do some crafting. Time is a factor so you need to know how long it will take. These are simple weapons so you know the DC is 12, but per RAW the time (if less than a week) is determined by dividing the week by(result x DC)/cost. If you use the listed cost - zero - they'd make the clubs at the speed of light open up a wormhole and implode.
Now, you could just hand-wave it, and let them have their clubs, but I find a roll of the dice with a risk of success or failure based on a sensible mechanic is always more interesting and fun than DM fiat. So, if you don't want to hand-wave it - here's what you do:
Since the purpose of the 'cost' here is really just an abstraction to measure the relative complexity and difficulty of making the item, find an item that's of comperable conplexity and dificulty - i.e. and item of similar stats - and use it's cost instead. A club is comparable to a short spear (same damage, if worse range increment), which costs 1gp. A quarterstaff is likewise comparable to a regular spear (2gp). A sling is about the same as a dart (5sp).
Plugging those numbers into the RAW, we find that if a crafter hits the minimum for success (DC 12) the foragers would make a quarterstaff in about a day's work, and a club in half that, or sling proportionately faster. If they failed the check, they won't lose money, but they will lose the time - by RAW craft checks can be made by the day or week, so on a fail, they've tried all day to make a decent weapon, but just ended up with a pile of firewood (not a bad scene for a bit of comic relief). You could likewise find if they got a great result, they got the hang of it and churned out several like an assembly line.
If you use the listed cost - zero - they'd make the clubs at the speed of light open up a wormhole and implode.
I LOL'd.
It's like turning a computer onoff.
But a short spear has a forged metal head - sort of like a knife - hence the 1gp cost.
And a regular spear has a dagger on top - 2gp!
So in essence, they are spear sellers are just flogging you a dagger with a free stick.
But a short spear has a forged metal head - sort of like a knife - hence the 1gp cost.
And a regular spear has a dagger on top - 2gp!
So in essence, they are spear sellers are just flogging you a dagger with a free stick.
Look at it the other way round: A club is a hunk of wood crafted to be able to do as much damage to you and be as effective in hitting you as a spear with that knife tip.
That is one hell of a piece of wood!
It takes time and skill to make such a thing out of just any old tree branch. Comperable time, comperable skill, for comperable comabt effectivness.
The difference with the spear is you need the smelted metal and a forge, thus the cost. The club you just need the time and skill (thus no cost to buy, but comperable cost in the abstract in time to make).
Look at it the other way round: A club is a hunk of wood crafted to be able to do as much damage to you and be as effective in hitting you as a spear with that knife tip.
Back in my misspent youth we used to just use something like a cricket stump with a bicycle handgrip stuck on the end. Lumps of wood can do amazing work.
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Plugging those numbers into the RAW, we find that if a crafter hits the minimum for success (DC 12) the foragers would make a quarterstaff in about a day's work, and a club in half that, or sling proportionately faster. If they failed the check, they won't lose money, but they will lose the time
I'd prefer it to take up to an hour to make a club on a minimum Craft result or a slightly harder Perception check, given suitable raw materials (woodland, lumber scraps, etc.) and tools (a dagger, hand axe or most sorts of actual artisan's tools). Twice as long, or a harder search DC, for a quarterstaff sounds right. A sling should require crafting and take up to a day. Say 1sp (club), 2sp (quarterstaff) or 1gp (sling)?
Not that this was your question, but this little PDF HERE is under a buck and a great house rule for crafting for those folks that want a little more out of the skill. Something I would recommend and avoids the whole imploding universe issue...
I'd prefer it to take up to an hour to make a club on a minimum Craft result or a slightly harder Perception check,
I'd even allow a Survival Check in appropriate terrain.
In a wooded setting I could make a club in under 10 minutes.
Climb a tree > find a limb about 6in thick > grab it and drop as dead weight so that it breaks > break it to about 3ft in length > break off the smaller branches and twigs = you now have a heavy stick that is narrow at one end for the handle and wide and lumpy at the other end for hittin stuff. You could even get fancy and wrap some cloth around the narrow end for better grip.
If you're lucky, you don't even need to break it off of a tree. You might find one already on the ground.
It won't be masterwork but it'll do the job and won't be an improvised weapon.
I'd even allow a Survival Check in appropriate terrain.
I'd prefer it to take up to an hour to make a club on a minimum Craft result or a slightly harder Perception check,
And maybe even less time if they are in say umm a Club House?
And maybe even less time if they are in say umm a Club House?I want to reach across the internet and slap you.
IMHO if a PC were to try to use a hunk of wood they'd just picked up off the ground as a weapon I'd treat it as if it had the "broken" condition, though I'd be more forgiving if it were something like a chair leg or ax handle.
IMHO if a PC were to try to use a hunk of wood they'd just picked up off the ground as a weapon I'd treat it as if it had the "broken" condition, though I'd be more forgiving if it were something like a chair leg or ax handle.
All that's covered by the 'improvised weapon' rule. Axe handle, branch, poker, all that you match it to the closest weapon analog for the damage - so yea a club. But it gest a -4 to hit because it's not been specifically designed and crafcted to be a weapon. The balance is not as good, grips not as good, etc.
The real world analog to the *weapon* "Club" is probably the baseball bat. It's got the balance and other qualities to hit a ball very effectivly, and it's a common murder weapon because it's as effective on skulls. However, if you imagine trying to play baseball with a treebranch, you can see the difference right away. Face off two people, one with a baseball bat, the other with an improvised blunt weapon - chair leg, axe handle, tree limb - you can see who has the advantage, though both *could* land a comperable hit. That's represented in the game as the -4 to penalty for an improvised weapon as opposed to one sufficiently crafted for the purpose.
One could turn a found tree branch into a decent baseball bat, though. Just takes a knife, a little skill, time, and patience. So clubs are "free", assuming you have a woods nearby, a knife and some time - and the presumption is unless a PC is in a desert or other special circcumstance. I think that's the idea.
Cubs
My only complaint is that Great Club should be a simple weapon. Really, how hard is it for me to use a club, vs a Staff.
In order to make a club you need a few outstanding fine gentlemen, a classy lounge to meet at, a bar full of quality drinks and some spirited topics for conversation ...
... *looks around the thread* ...
... sorry guys, I will be going now.
LOL... you forgot the Dwaves.
Not that this was your question, but this little PDF HERE is under a buck and a great house rule for crafting for those folks that want a little more out of the skill.
+1 for Making Craft Work
Having made quite a few clubs myself, I'd say anything more than an hour is overboard.
You could copy the rule for level 0 spells - count 0 as .5 gold.
I'd qualify any item that is heavier at one end than the other and has any remotely handle like quality at the other a club. Clubs arent balanced, they're simply heavier at one end and blunt. They're also one of the worst weapons mechanically to use, why penalize someone for using an inferior weapon. Would anyone argue the monkey at the beginning of 2001 space odyssey was using that bone as a club? It's so simple a monkey can do it.
Improvised weapon is for items that dont fit easily into an analog. Want to use the washbasin and bash it over someone's head, improvised weapon. Throw a wagon wheel at a group of approaching goblins, improvised weapon. Hit someone with a horseshoe, you got it.
There are some interesting corner cases that come up, like what's a chair? I'd say a chair is improvised, but break a leg off and its a club. Rock in hand? Very close to a club, but its improvised. etc at DM discretion.
As for crafting, clubs are free, even in the real world, you cant sell them either. Why bother with rules for that? A sling, I'd agree it could use a 50sp value or something very cheap. Quarterstaff is just an advanced club that is straighter.
In our games, a player can walk up to a tree and spontaneously get its weight in clubs simply by touching it.
I kid.
I'm with DrDrew on this one. It only takes as long as finding a good hardy stick, and as per riatin's words, anything remotely club-like would never be treated as an improvised weapon in my games.
I'd go for 1sp cost for crafting purposes. Basically you have to spend the time (probably hours, not days) and make a Craft check in order to turn that improvised weapon into a simple weapon without penalty.
I'd go for 1sp cost for crafting purposes. Basically you have to spend the time (probably hours, not days) and make a Craft check in order to turn that improvised weapon into a simple weapon without penalty.
At 1gp, rolling exactly the DC you could make 2 in a day. Assuming an 8 hour workday, per travelling rules, that'd be 4 hours. If you imagine a club being a baseball bat, wittling two baseball bats in a day with a knife seems quick. At 5sp, it'd be 2 hours. Less with a better roll.
anything remotely club-like would never be treated as an improvised weapon in my games
That'd beg the question of what would be an improvised melee weapon then, since practically anything one would use as an improvised melee weapon would be at least remotely club-like. RAW talks about things being specifically designed for the purpose vs. something not designed for the purpose but usable for it. Has to be that a weapon club is a crafted item like a baseball bat - something designed and made for the purpose. Otherwise the RAW would be "treat anything club-like as per club" Houserules notwithstanding, of course.
At 1gp, rolling exactly the DC you could make 2 in a day. Assuming an 8 hour workday, per travelling rules, that'd be 4 hours. If you imagine a club being a baseball bat, wittling two baseball bats in a day with a knife seems quick. At 5sp, it'd be 2 hours. Less with a better roll.
So if you pick a tree branch up off the ground, it's an improvised weapon. If you have some experience woodworking and spend a few minutes carving it, you can make it into a simple weapon.
That's how I'd do it.
anything remotely club-like would never be treated as an improvised weapon in my gamesThat'd beg the question of what would be an improvised melee weapon then, since practically anything one would use as an improvised melee weapon would be at least remotely club-like. RAW talks about things being specifically designed for the purpose vs. something not designed for the purpose but usable for it. Has to be that a weapon club is a crafted item like a baseball bat - something designed and made for the purpose. Otherwise the RAW would be "treat anything club-like as per club" Houserules notwithstanding, of course.
I gave several examples in my post (washbasin, wagon wheel, horseshoe) but just looking at my desk, there's several items that I'd classify as improvised weapons if I tried to use them in a fight. Computer, flatscreen monitor, phone, laptop, car keys, tape dispenser, drawer, pen, ruler, hard drive, etc. There's plenty of examples that could be used in game as well and none of them resemble clubs. Hitting someone with a backpack, leather belt, piece of rope with a grapnel, manacles, whetstone, wall mirror, thrown plates, etc the list goes on and on with your imagination and MOST will not be club-like. The ones that are club-like you treat as clubs, very simple. Any Suicide Kings fans out there will probably appreciate toaster as an improvised weapon.
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I would quit being a rules nerd.....PC picks up a branch hits the skeleton move on to the next encounter.
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I'd also like to point out that while firewood has a listed price, you can get all the fuel you'll ever need by loading up on clubs.
So if you pick a tree branch up off the ground, it's an improvised weapon. If you have some experience woodworking and spend a few minutes carving it, you can make it into a simple weapon.
That's how I'd do it.
Right, exactly. DC12 craft check. Anyone could do it with a blade and some patience, only issue was how long it took.
I'd be more inclined to call a baseball bat a greatclub, aka a two-handed club.
Right, good point - a one handed club would be a night-stick, cudgel, baton, truncheon. Point is a night stick is a crafted thing, more effective as a weapon than something improvised because it's designed and crafted for the purpose.
Right, good point - a one handed club would be a night-stick, cudgel, baton, truncheon. Point is a night stick is a crafted thing, more effective as a weapon than something improvised because it's designed and crafted for the purpose.
Ummmm... not significantly. I have two old "night sticks", one of which was MP fare around the Korean War period, another that is just an old-old police baton. Both are really not much more than a 2-2.5 ft, roughly 2 inch diameter, length of wood smoothed into a cylindrical shape with contouring for grip at the hand end and a hole in the bottom for a lanyard. That's just a pretty stick, albeit a sturdy one. The only real issue with "crafting" a useable club is finding a length of wood that has the integrity to survive repeated smashing against the target.
In the woods, that should take no more than a DC 15 Survival check to find a few serviceable sticks (maybe 15-30mins) and 10 minutes with a knife to clear the gripping end.