Does anyone know if any of the critters in the Bestiary 2 will be available for summoning with either Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally? Because it would be awesome if it did so, and there is really no reason why they shouldn't be available.
I haven't seen the book yet, since it hasn't been released yet. Also curious about new critters being available as animal companions and improved familiars, but the summon part is what really interests me.
They are not adding to the Summon spells, but GMs are free to add them as they see fit.
It would be nice to get a simple list, or at least rules for what should be summonable for each level of the spell. This was something that bothered me in the 3.0-3.5 days as well as more monsters kept coming out of the woodworks and classes that enjoyed summoning....which is almost all of the spellcasters in D&D never got to use any of them without a DM basically guessing what would be appropriate.
Is there anywhere else we could try to convince the great people of Paizo to rethink this as a possibility?
Sorry "SpaceChomp" i think we are Out Of Luck :(
Fair enough....disappointing but at least we have a definitive answer. Is there any chance of rules or guidelines for adding new monsters to the list?
Each tier and the highest CR available from the rulebook.
Summon Monster I - 1/2
Summon Monster II - 1
Summon Monster III - 2
Summon Monster IV - 4
Summon Monster V - 6
Summon Monster VI - 8
Summon Monster VII - 10
Summon Monster VIII - 11 (I'm rounding this up for consistency)
Summon Monster IX - 14
See the pattern? That's how I'm planning on adding creatures; let's say an outsider has a CR of 5, use Summon Monster V which summons creatures up to CR 6.
That's not actually a pattern so much as just a list, but thanks it's still helpful.
Creative Director
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Fair enough....disappointing but at least we have a definitive answer. Is there any chance of rules or guidelines for adding new monsters to the list?
Not in the immediate future. For now, we're pretty set with having the summon monster lists limited to the first Bestiary for a lot of reasons, and we've got plenty of other projects on our plates in the meantime. It's just not a direction we want to go in any official manner with summon monster spells at this time.
Well Summon Monster VIII really throws things off with such a short list, but I'm assuming that the highest CR for that spell would be 12. That's where I got the pattern from.
Boo. That sucks.
I totally understand Paizo's reluctance to go hog wild on adding summon options. However, I have fairly specific wishes when it comes to expanding the summoning lists.
I really just wish that for divine casters, there was an appropriate (alignment, i.e. lawful, chaotic, good or evil) outsider option for each summon monster spell. In other words, an actual outsider, not a templated creature.
For arcane casters, I'd like an elemental/neutral outsider option for each summon monster level.
I'm not so much interested in an ever expanding list, its just that sometimes templated animals don't feel particularly appropriate for a theme. For example, when I was playing a cleric of Sarenrae, I really wanted a good outsider for each level, instead of dog that gets to smite evil, but is still pretty much a dog from Heaven.
Its a bit of an aside, but I do kind of miss "Summon Undead" style spells since they helped to flesh out Necromancers, so to speak, although I always wished that spell chain was necromantic instead of conjuration.
I did try, in one campaign, to open up Summon Monster spells to "CR of X level," based on a 3.0 Dragon Magazine article, but it was a bit more messy then I would have liked it. Too many options, and too many monsters that push the bounds of their CR that become too obvious to use over and over.
I did try, in one campaign, to open up Summon Monster spells to "CR of X level," based on a 3.0 Dragon Magazine article, but it was a bit more messy then I would have liked it. Too many options, and too many monsters that push the bounds of their CR that become too obvious to use over and over.
I agree that not every monster is appropriate for the Summon Monster list. But considering that the list has been expanded in other books (e.g. adventure path installments), I'm disappointed that they didn't do so in what seems like the most logical place -- an actual monster book.
I really just wish that for divine casters, there was an appropriate (alignment, i.e. lawful, chaotic, good or evil) outsider option for each summon monster spell. In other words, an actual outsider, not a templated creature.
That does seem to be one change with Bestiary 2, Entropic and Resolute templates can be added to summon monster and planar ally creatures.
Not what you're looking for, but it's a small change to be noted.
That does seem to be one change with Bestiary 2, Entropic and Resolute templates can be added to summon monster and planar ally creatures.Not what you're looking for, but it's a small change to be noted.
Oh, I appreciate that, and its a nice expansion. Just still have my dream of actual outsiders to fill all of the niches.
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I did try, in one campaign, to open up Summon Monster spells to "CR of X level," based on a 3.0 Dragon Magazine article, but it was a bit more messy then I would have liked it. Too many options, and too many monsters that push the bounds of their CR that become too obvious to use over and over.
DRAT, DRAT ,DRAT, nixed before even askin
Maybe a feat, Named summons. For each known summoning spell the player and GM roll up a named creature the character can summon. If a sorcerer rebuilds without say, Summon Monster I, the named monster is released. A named monster can add levels or templates to move to a higher level spell. If the monster dies, and is sent back, the player loses the option till they can get together with the GM in non-game time.
Now what should I name a swarm of Rune Scarabs?
How about Alphabet Hubub?
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I agree that not every monster is appropriate for the Summon Monster list. But considering that the list has been expanded in other books (e.g. adventure path installments), I'm disappointed that they didn't do so in what seems like the most logical place -- an actual monster book.
I did try, in one campaign, to open up Summon Monster spells to "CR of X level," based on a 3.0 Dragon Magazine article, but it was a bit more messy then I would have liked it. Too many options, and too many monsters that push the bounds of their CR that become too obvious to use over and over.
Actually, I would argue that the most logical place to expand the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally list would be Ultimate Magic. I would kinda expect there to be at least guidelines for adding to lists in that book.
I really just wish that for divine casters, there was an appropriate (alignment, i.e. lawful, chaotic, good or evil) outsider option for each summon monster spell. In other words, an actual outsider, not a templated creature.
This was, in fact, one of my bigger disappointments with the Pathfinder core rulebook; I really disliked the 3.x templated animals approach. As a stopgap until you can get enough real summonable creatures printed, okay, but it's a defect that should be fixed as new real monsters are printed.
Well since Summon Natures Ally is not restricted to animals, you can summon a cat, fox, or dolphin. Can an urban Druid summon a swarm of cats? Yes with that feat.
Actually, I would argue that the most logical place to expand the Summon Monster/Nature's Ally list would be Ultimate Magic. I would kinda expect there to be at least guidelines for adding to lists in that book.
I'd argue that that option prevents future Bestiary monsters from inclusion. The most logical place is an appendix in each Bestiary listing monsters appropriate for summon spells of each level, preferably at the back. This is the single biggest problem with additional monster books, IMHO - New monsters, many of which are perfectly thematic for summon lists, but never updating those lists to allow for them. It's a major frustration on my part to have a character who would love to continue with a theme, but have no guidelines to do so.
For monsters that were originally in the 3.5 Monster Manual, we can at least reference 3.5 summon lists. For example, Hippogriffs should be a Summon Nature's Ally II addition. But, beyond that, it's all up in the air. A lawful neutral cleric of a god of order should have access to Inevitables and Axiomites, for example, but there's no legal way to do so without DM Fiat. As a DM, I'd expect that a product I purchased would ease up on my job, rather than adding complications.
I wasn't 100% expecting such an appendix to exist, but I don't understand why one wouldn't be put together. I certainly don't understand why it's the current policy to never do so.
It could be a downloadable PDF.
Fair enough....disappointing but at least we have a definitive answer. Is there any chance of rules or guidelines for adding new monsters to the list?Not in the immediate future. For now, we're pretty set with having the summon monster lists limited to the first Bestiary for a lot of reasons, and we've got plenty of other projects on our plates in the meantime. It's just not a direction we want to go in any official manner with summon monster spells at this time.
What does this mean for the new Elementals? In the spell it only says "Elemental (size)". Does this mean we can summon the new Elementals or not?
Each tier and the highest CR available from the rulebook.
Summon Monster I - 1/2
Summon Monster II - 1
Summon Monster III - 2
Summon Monster IV - 4
Summon Monster V - 6
Summon Monster VI - 8
Summon Monster VII - 10
Summon Monster VIII - 11 (I'm rounding this up for consistency)
Summon Monster IX - 14
See the pattern? That's how I'm planning on adding creatures; let's say an outsider has a CR of 5, use Summon Monster V which summons creatures up to CR 6.
You'll get almost automatic power inflation by using the highest CR available. Better to use the lowest CR available, or find some middle ground at least.
You'll get almost automatic power inflation by using the highest CR available. Better to use the lowest CR available, or find some middle ground at least.Each tier and the highest CR available from the rulebook.
Summon Monster I - 1/2
Summon Monster II - 1
Summon Monster III - 2
Summon Monster IV - 4
Summon Monster V - 6
Summon Monster VI - 8
Summon Monster VII - 10
Summon Monster VIII - 11 (I'm rounding this up for consistency)
Summon Monster IX - 14
See the pattern? That's how I'm planning on adding creatures; let's say an outsider has a CR of 5, use Summon Monster V which summons creatures up to CR 6.
Sommoner gets the highest.
Now make a chart with the lowest for everyone else. :)
I want summon Monkey Swarm!
I want summon Monkey Swarm!
You mean like this?