Slayer is the best at grabbing two weapons and killing people with them. Everyone else has a niche.
At that level, I would probably suggest Ranger or Slayer. Using the Bonus Style feats, you can choose not to heavily rely on DEX just to qualify for feats and focus on having a better STR (reducing the MADness of your build).
Just personal opinion though.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IMO Slayer. I don't like the Ranger's class features unless you know you are always going to be fighting in a few terrains against a few monster types. For Rogue I do not like the numbers on 3/4 BaB with no accuracy boosts and then taking a -2 on top of that. Slayer gets Ranger's no-dex-needed TWF feats, static boosts to hit and damage on top of full BaB, and a bit of sneak attack on top which is more gravy then your main source of damage. Slayer is the best TWF, especially if you want Str-based so you don't rely on agile weapons.
A bit late, but I can vouch for the Slayer. If you've played PFS, Zadim is a frighteningly effective TWF fighter. The only thing you're missing out on compared to the Fighter is that you lack some feats. But the most important part is that you can get easy access to TWF without the stat point investment. That leaves you with more points to put in other important stats, like Wisdom. Also, you have two good saves, a lot more skill points, and more relevant class skills. You also have more versatility through your Slayer Talents.
I've never really been a fan of Armour Training, but losing Weapon Training (and Weapons Specialisation) might hurt a bit. But on the other hand, while a Fighter only counts one specific type of weapon for his Training/Specialisation, your Studied Target is always on. At level 8, all you need to use is a Swift, an action you'll rarely use otherwise, so it's basically a free power boost. You also have some sneak attack, but that's more a happy addition than your main method of dealing damage. Where I always see Rogues tumbling to get into sneak position, you don't have to force it, but if it happens, it's great.
Speaking of slayer, (not to hijack the thread too much for my own purposes) i'm trying to build one now and i've been wondering about what feat I should take at first level. I want to go with the twf build but i'm torn between taking weapon focus and going with kukris or taking ewp wakizashi. Anyone have any advice or alternatives or is it the sort of thing that isn't gonna make a huge difference in the long run?
Slayer or Ranger.
Tho I like to go into Horizon Walker for a few levels after Level 10 and grab the D. Door SLA which opens up the Dimensional agility line of feats. Teleport to wizard..full attack wizard..wizard is dead, next target.
Personally, I think Vigilante has a lot going for it with half your level on damage with Fist of the Avenger or Lethal Grace, using gauntlets to TWF. Though it is debatable if these two effects stack since there is debate if levels are a source, but if they do then this is a ridiculous amount of damage.
Another one that is good is Fighter with Trained Grace, since Weapon Training is fairly easy to boost and comes with a lot of fighter feats that help boost damage even further, like Weapon Specialization.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For something completely different from what was mentioned upthread:
I have a PFS cavalier that's been pretty fun. TWF & shield fighting feats. Lance for reach, shield for non-reach. Added fun: shield slam first, and get the free bull rush into lance's reach :) It's perhaps not the most mechanically efficient TWF build out there, but the challenge bonus damage applying twice goes a long way towards making it brutally good (when you have a challenge to burn).
|
|
Slayer seems to be the best with studied target, sneak attack, and grabbing the twf feats without having to need to have a high dex. An argument can be made for warpriest with the fate's favored trait constantly buffed with divine favor and later divine power, but you need to have enough points to start with at least a 15 dex. Ranger and fighter (with the two-weapon warrior archetype) can also be pretty good.
Slayer seems to be the best with studied target, sneak attack, and grabbing the twf feats without having to need to have a high dex. An argument can be made for warpriest with the fate's favored trait constantly buffed with divine favor and later divine power, but you need to have enough points to start with at least a 15 dex. Ranger and fighter (with the two-weapon warrior archetype) can also be pretty good.
A warpriest using two weapons should use the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain to pick up weapon training.
I like fighter. Enough feats to afford TWF and some cool tricks. Also, while needing a good DEX and STR isn't that bad, two weapon grace can certainly help. I normally don't worry about greater TWF since two weapon rend is a better investment, but high level shenanigans can boost DEX.
For good TWF you need a static bonus to damage applying to each attack to justify the extra number and penalties. Weapon training is nice, as are various weapon properties. (for fighters I really like gloves of curdling dueling ) Sneak Attack CAN work, but it takes some work with rogues to get accuracy up so slayer is generally preferred.
I actually had a Halfling fighter dual kukri build that was pretty strong thanks to two weapon grace and crits.
Another way to go is utility. A lore warden TWF build is pretty strong because they can afford the feats to TWF, disarm, trip, and make a bunch of attacks of opportunities in one turn. Double weapons are preferred to two hand AoO's.
Edit: Dang. Auto spell.
Speaking of slayer, (not to hijack the thread too much for my own purposes) i'm trying to build one now and i've been wondering about what feat I should take at first level. I want to go with the twf build but i'm torn between taking weapon focus and going with kukris or taking ewp wakizashi. Anyone have any advice or alternatives or is it the sort of thing that isn't gonna make a huge difference in the long run?
I'd go with shortswords and weapon focus. Unless you have some insane strength or other static damage booster, or critical rider effects that might kick in at high levels, the slight damage increase from the 18-20 crits isn't going to be worth it. Kukris are highly overrated.
And if you don't want weapon focus, use longsword+shortsword instead.
Fortunately, Slayers get some static damage built-in to their chassis with the Studied Target class feature.
Based on the experience when someone worked it out for level 10 archery, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to find out that an inquisitor would be the best for damage output.
Remember to get champion's strike: fleet charge, poor mobility is one of the curses of TWF.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Inquisitors aren't that great at TWF. Having to get double bane eats your bane rounds super fast.
If you go Slayer, get the Focused Target feat. Starts off as a super flexible bonus and then becomes applicable to many other things.
Accomplished Sneak Attacker is also a must have.
Inquisitor go full Dex and pick up mythic weapon finesse, who needs strength? You want mythic heroism so pick up mythic spell casting.
At level 12 with mythic heroism, judgment, divine power and and greater bane going, assuming like 26 ish Dex (seems reasonable) and a +3 enhancement bonus your damage bonus is going to be 25+4D6 per hit. And with your BAB your to hit is 34 before you apply the negatives for two weapon fighting. Although pretty sure you can get rid of that with a mythic feat. Assuming you can't for simplicity and with Kuris though that's
31/31/31/26/26 - 1D4+25+4D6/18-20x2.
Buy a pale green prism and take fates favoured that's a 2/1 hit and damage on top of that. Although I would suggest making those Kuris +2 keen. So
32/32/32/27/27 - 1D4+25+4D6/15-20x2.
So yeah that's a rough idea of a two weapon fighting level 12 mythic inquisitor. Picked level twelve for the full impact of greater bane but the build works at level 8 too I think, although you don't have divine power yet.
Wasn't it ruled that arsenal chaplain couldn't get weapon training or weapon training feats?
That's only a limitation in PFS and they are still rethinking it, at least with regards to the feat.
As for the OP, consider using the possessed hand feats to lower your two weapon fighting penalties, and you could be dual wielding bastard swords or katana.
Inquisitors aren't that great at TWF. Having to get double bane eats your bane rounds super fast.
If you go Slayer, get the Focused Target feat. Starts off as a super flexible bonus and then becomes applicable to many other things.
Accomplished Sneak Attacker is also a must have.
With the numbers I've just chucked together for the inquisitor (which are on the conservative side) it looks to me like running out of bane wouldn't be a problem, the solution is simply. Its a swift to activate, only turn it on when you can full attack, follow with a free action amazing initiative for a second standard to attack again. Most things will be dead after that routine, the following turn, turn bane off again.
To be clear, I'm not particularly invested in the inquisitor being chosen (I'd have been more generous and gone into more detail were I) but I thought it was worth throwing together a rough idea of one to see what the rough damage out put looks like. Turns out high, factoring in crits the level 12 one's full attack average damage is somewhere above 280 based on some rough mental maths. And like I said, could be higher, thats not even factoring the amazing initiative attack.
To be totally fair, I'm not aware of most mythic rules so you have the upper hand on this.
In a flat out mythic game the TWF Inquisitor is going to heavily outclass the Slayer.
Firstly, Mythic Weapon Finesse really flattens the massive advantage the Slayer has over the Inquisitor (stat distribution), and allows the Inquisitor to go full DEX without any problems. With Judgment and Greater Bane, the bonus really start to add up, and you still have the advantage of a few really powerful Inquisitions (such as Fervor, which gives you a 1/d quicken allowing a Fates Favored Divine Favor / Power tricks at higher levels.)
Theres two further reasons as to why I would consider an Inquisitor superior (in a mythic game). Firstly, Mythic Spells are just so stupidly broken, and secondly, the inqusitor has got the value of some good defensive bonuses as well. Stalwart for instance, is a neat ability to have at high levels against mythic spellcasting, judgments offer defensive boosts, the Spellbreaker archetype buffs your saving throws against tough magic etc etc.
Note that what I'm saying probably applies specifically more for a mythic game than anything else. In a standard game, the Slayer still offers excellent competition with full BAB (though its a classic case of the merits of full BAB vs a part time spell list) and static boosts of Studied Target (and it bypasses the stat problems and swift action bloating the Inquisitor sometimes runs into).
Bottom line though, pick what you think you would most enjoy playing, and run with that, sometimes it comes down to what you would enjoy playing more, than what class has slightly better DPR than another.
My favorite TWF build is the classic weapon finesse rogue, as long as their is someone else in the party to tank/flank. Most of your damage is not going to be from STR but from the extra sneak attack from flanking. If there is a tank Fighter/Barbarian/Cleric in the party then you just take weapon finesse, flank, and roll all of those sneak attack D6s. Since each attack will benefit from the sneak attack D6 that is a lot of potential damage.
I can not comment on Mythic because while I have hosted it I have not had a chance to play it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like to build around crit passing, take a Kukri in one hand and a Heavy Pick in the other. Since you are your own ally, confirm a Kukri crit into a devestating Heavy Pick smash.
Works especially well with a Keen Kukri and a Thundering Heavy Pick, this is a common Dwarven Slayer build for me.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Inquisitors aren't that great at TWF. Having to get double bane eats your bane rounds super fast.
If you go Slayer, get the Focused Target feat. Starts off as a super flexible bonus and then becomes applicable to many other things.
Accomplished Sneak Attacker is also a must have.
Where is the Focused Target feat from? Can't seem to find any info on it anywhere.
EDIT: Nevermind, based AoN to the rescue :D
|
I have a few two weapon fighting chars and I enjoy them both. also have some funny ideas
My first is a standard fighter, some of the new weapon training options are pretty cool you can learn to use every one handed weapons as if it were a light weapon in regards to penalty. If you go the dex way with str to damage you can double the attack bonus from weapon training so at ninth level with the gloves of dueling it's a +4/+8 bonus.
My second char is an unchained rogue 4 / unchained barbarian 6 with a pair of furious kukris. He is very fun to play with and gets a lot of bonuses whenever he enters rage. Dex to damage and hit from the rogue frees up quite a few feats.
An idea im tossing around with currently:
Dragoon fighter with spear dancing style using a lance as a double weapon, dex to hit and str to damage. The dragoon's weapon training is a +1/+2 with awt double weapon training bonus and the fighter gloves again that turns into +4/+16 at ninth level.
|
|
Another option for slayers is a two-shield basher, using Shield Mastery to apply the defensive bonuses on shields to attack as well. You get a lot of attack bonus for your money that way.
Although slayers are good and effective for 2WF, by this level you could also consider the Investigator. Studied Combat gives you a +4/+4 by level 8, on all attacks; no off-hand penalties here. And you'll have alchemy to give you enormous defensive buffs and you're a class with strong Will saves and lots of out of combat versatility.
The best is not easy to say specifically, but there are definitely classes that excel at TWF compared to others.
Those classes are ones that get static bonuses to attack or damage.
Rangers are great, especially once you get to high enough level and can cast instant enemy. Assuming you stacked all you're bonuses onto 1 Favored Enemy type you can have a +6 to attack and damage (or more) on each weapon, more than making up for the penalties for of TWF. You can also ignore the dex requirements for TWF feats focus on strength instead.
Slayers are similar to Rangers, they are both better and worse than Rangers. Studied Target isn't as big of a boost as Favored Enemy is, but it is far more versatile for the majority of the game. Slayer basically steals all the same tricks as the ranger to be good. Before Instant Enemy comes into play, Slayer is better. After Instant Enemy comes into play Ranger pulls way far ahead.
Paladins and Cavaliers. Despite not having class abilities obviously dedicated at TWF, the bonus of getting your level to damage makes a huge difference. You don't have to worry about strength as a source of damage (as much) because you have Smite or Challenge to do the work for you.
Fighters, can actually be good at TWF since Trained Grace Advanced Weapon Training became a thing. Doubling his damage bonus from Weapon Training is pretty big damage boost, especially when combined with Gloves of Dueling.
No-one has to worry about strength as a source of damage in mythic because of mythic weapon finesse.
Although its worth getting 13 because you can get PA and Mythic PA use the version of that doesn't subtract from accuracy. Boom that inqusitor I did up page is doing 6 extra damage per hit, a same level slayer ranger is doing 8 extra damage per hit.
13 STR is all a mythic two weapon character ever wants.
Keep in mind that instant enemy has a somatic component which doesn't work too well with a lot of two weapon fighting options. So, it locks you into either using double weapons or using something like a cestus for your off hand. It also has some fairly limited uses per day, and while you can get it out of a wand, that takes a standard action.
Slayer TWF build
Level 1: Exotic Weapon(Falcata)
Level 2: Ranger combat style(two weapon fighting)
Level 3: Possessed Hand
Level 4: Rogue Talent(Weapon Training(Falcata))
Level 5: Hands Autonomy
Level 6: Ranger combat style(Double Slice)
Level 7: (Free Choice)
Level 8: Rogue Talent(Combat trick(Improved Critical(Falcata)))
I didn't include bonus feat for being human or bonus talents from a FCB.
Inquisitors aren't that great at TWF. Having to get double bane eats your bane rounds super fast.
If you go Slayer, get the Focused Target feat. Starts off as a super flexible bonus and then becomes applicable to many other things.
Accomplished Sneak Attacker is also a must have.
Where is the Focused Target feat from? Can't seem to find any info on it anywhere.
EDIT: Nevermind, based AoN to the rescue :D
Can you clarify ? I still can't find this feat anywhere :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Focused%20Target
That had slipped past me. It's a pretty good feat. I may have to make it a must have.
Source Monster Hunter's Handbook pg. 5
You pour your entire focus into slaying your chosen target.Prerequisites: Studied targetACG class feature (second studied target).
Benefit: When you study a target, you can reduce the number of additional targets you can maintain as a studied target. For each target reduced in this way, you increase your studied target bonus by 1 for either attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, or the DCs of your abilities. Each such increase must be applied to a different category (attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, or DCs). You can end the effects of this feat as a free action.
So, it's basically a +1 to attack for every 5 slayer levels you have.
Edit: On closer reading, I'm not sure the +1s can stack on the same thing. So, it becomes a +1 to attack at level 5. And a +1 to attack and damage at level 10. It's still a decent feat, but not as much of a must have.
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Focused%20Target
That had slipped past me. It's a pretty good feat. I may have to make it a must have.
So, it's basically a +1 to attack for every 5 slayer levels you have.Source Monster Hunter's Handbook pg. 5
You pour your entire focus into slaying your chosen target.Prerequisites: Studied targetACG class feature (second studied target).
Benefit: When you study a target, you can reduce the number of additional targets you can maintain as a studied target. For each target reduced in this way, you increase your studied target bonus by 1 for either attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, or the DCs of your abilities. Each such increase must be applied to a different category (attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, or DCs). You can end the effects of this feat as a free action.
Its also really nice for NPC assassins since you can boost the DC of assassinate.
|
One more problem with the ranger commoparison. They do end up 4 ahead in accuracy +10 favoured enemy vs +6 study + focused study but they are 17 points behinded per attack with sneak attack.
If you do the +1 to hit equals 2 damage they are still behind.
Study also boosts DCs. If the build has any this is amazing there are few things in the game that give a +6 bonus to dcs.
Another thought. We all get Warpriest is good because you can get high crit low damage weapons, and still get high damage. Fighters can do the same with advanced weapon training. Sorry if that's already mentioned...
Also, if someone is really confident in their accuracy (like Claxon's ranger), it might be a worthwhile investment to nab power attack. Most builds probably won't be able to pull this off however.
Also, for anyone brave enough to try a firearm twf build, the kickup feat is really handy for reloading in a pinch.
Also! Ranger deserves a special mention for skirmisher tricks. While this does get rid of spells and things like instant enemy, there is one trick that lets you move five feet as a swift action. So you can move 10 feet and full attack. Could be handy, plus other tricks can entangle or slow your opponent.
I think all this discussion about mythic isn't helpful.
The OP didn't mention mythic and is a very uncommon thing to use, since mythic is widely regarded as "broke as f#&*".
Keep in mind that instant enemy has a somatic component which doesn't work too well with a lot of two weapon fighting options. So, it locks you into either using double weapons or using something like a cestus for your off hand. It also has some fairly limited uses per day, and while you can get it out of a wand, that takes a standard action.
My character's usually used a wand of it since Ranger's have very limited spell slots. You are right that you need to find a way to accommodate using the wand with having two hand held weapons, but there are options to do so.
A slayer is definitely easier to build and requires less shenanigans, but a ranger who is getting full FE bonus against a target is getting twice the bonuses to attack and damage that a slayer is.
You also have to wait post level 10 to be able to afford a wand or cast the spell so for many characters it's not worth bothering. So it highly depends on starting level.
I think all this discussion about mythic isn't helpful.
The OP didn't mention mythic and is a very uncommon thing to use, since mythic is widely regarded as "broke as f@@$".
The OP does say "we'd be lvl8 with 3 mythic levels" so I figure that's where mythic is coming from.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know mythic, so I can't contribute to that part of the conversation. But I do have two TWF characters in PFS that use options that haven't been mentioned at all in this thread yet. They may not be "best", but they're certainly fun.
One is a Druid with the Nature's Fang archetype. That's the "I wanna be a Slayer" archetype from the Advanced Class Guide. The archetype gets Studied Target, some Slayer talents (Ranger TWF fighting style!), and a 1d6 sneak attack that never improves. In my case, I carry a quarterstaff and do TWF with both ends of a Shillalegh, so 2d6+1 weapon damage on each attack, right from level 1, and that's before strength, Studied Target, and sneak attack dice. I took the Monkey domain for a monkey familiar (fun for RP), and bonuses on acrobatics to get into flanking position, along with the Rice Runner trait to make it a class skill.
Because of the 3/4 BAB, I may not hit as often as other builds discussed here, so this may not be "best", but it's still good enough to be effective, and it's a fun and unusual build. I will say that this build is great at low levels, due to the high damage output, but I'm not sure if it'll keep up at higher levels, since I won't be able to upgrade my weapon with magic. He's only level 3 so far, so I'll see when I get there how he does.
The other is an Unchained Rogue with the Knife Master and Scout archetypes, and a single level dip in Medium, always channeling the Champion spirit. I've got the River Rat trait for +1 damage with daggers, dex to damage, and the Medium dip gives +3 damage to every attack. The Knife Master makes my sneak attacks use d8s instead of d6s as long as I stick to daggers, and Scout gives me ways to sneak attack when I'm not flanking. As with most Rogue archetypes, I had to give up trap finding, but this character is built to shiv people, and does it pretty well.
I'd actually say that the single level Medium dip is worth considering for any martial build, since you get quite a bit for a one level dip, as long as your GM is ok with you channeling the Champion spirit pretty much anywhere. That +3 bonus applies to EVERY damage roll, which is why this dip is even better on TWF types than other martials with less attacks per round. And the spirit surge ability will let you add a d6 to a failed attack roll, fort save, or strength check 5 times per day, after you find out that you missed. That's on top of the +2 Will, +1 on Fort, +1 on Strength checks, +1 on attack rolls (makes up for the 0 BAB), and a couple of cantrips. Even if you dump charisma (the class's casting stat), all you lose is the cantrips, so it's still worth it.
So I would have thought that the best TWFer has some sort of pounce mechanism which allows him to make multiple attacks with a standard action.
The Villain codex recently added a few options.
Barbarian, Fighter and Vigilante also have options to pull this off.