Biting Focused Barbarian?


Advice

1 to 50 of 85 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Has anyone toyed with a build for a Half-Orc Barbarian who focuses on bite attacks?

I'm thinking the character would function much the same as two-handed weapon type character. The bite would be a primary natural attack and thus would function well with power attack and furious focus.

Has anyone done this character?


A human, or even half-orc, jaw is a pretty lousy weapon. Try biting the flat side of a frying pan. That's assuming that nobody parries your face with their sword blade.

You can probably get away with it by the rules, but I don't know if your GM will be able to resist making your life miserable:

GM: A huge black pudding drops from the ceiling!
Player: I bite it!
GM: Take acid damage as it dissolves your face.

GM: You've flanked the Remorhaz, it's full attention is on the Paladin.
Player: I bite it!
GM: Your tongue sticks to the side of the Remorhaz like the kid in A Christmas Story. As it charges the paladin, it drags you along by the tongue.

GM: The harpy swoops in for another attack.
Player: I bite her!
GM: She's never gotten a hickey from a handsome barbarian before. And by Harpy standards, you're Errol Flynn. She wraps her filth-encrusted wings around you, nuzzling your neck and murmuring sweet nothings in your ear....

Liberty's Edge

On the other hand, the druid spell Strong Jaw becomes an epic buff for you...
I have a human Barb with Animal Fury's bite who's making his way up the Beast Totem rage power chain... tbh the bite attack is just too weak to stack up well against the 2H weapon possibilities like the falchion or greatsword (even when enlarged), both of which do more dmg and have better crit ranges. I do love it is a secondary attack action for flavor though (he also has a D4 headbutt from a 3PP, so his full attack is usually swing, swing, butt you in the face and then bite you while you're reeling). Anecdotally I have crazy good luck landing headbutt/bite crits, so YMMV.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
pachristian wrote:
*some amusing stuff*

Ahh... I take it you are not aware of the feat and substitute racial ability from the Advanced Players Guide that allow a Half-orc to gain a bite attack.

Considering that the bite attack gained is a primary natural attack, you get strength and a half on damage. From a raging barbarian this is more than just a "hickey". With power attack active its more along the lines of "I bite its throat out".


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

I was thinking along the lines of a grappling my foes and chewing on them while they are grappled. It would limit how much they can attack back, and allow me to make good use of the single bite attack.


Had a player build a tiefling barbarian with a 1d4 bite attack (via AP25, Bastards of Erebus, Variant Tiefling Abilities) that focused on grappling and unarmed attacks. Standard strategy was grab enemy and bite them until they stopped breathing; this was an urban campaign with many humanoid foes vs. monstrous threats. The build worked well enough.


Well I did say you could do it by the rules. But if I were the GM I'd mess with you...

Good thing I'm not the GM, huh?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think most human sized warrior would be terrified of a bite focused gnome or halfling barbarian. :)


Dark_Mistress wrote:
I think most human sized warrior would be terrified of a bite focused gnome or halfling barbarian. :)

Reminds me of the Trilogy of Terror Zuni doll.

Shadow Lodge

My friend is going to play a half-orcish natural ranger in our next campaign. Basically, he'll take Toothy as a racial ability on first level, then gain claws from Aspect of the Beast feat via Ranger bonus feats. Of course, being the pesky git he is, most of the levels after that will probably go into barbarian, which gives him another natural attack in the form of the Lesser Beast Totem rage power.

So, assuming he's not enamoured by the shapeshifter abilities, something like a +10/+10/+10/+10 attack routine on level six. Then, Rending Claws, Improved Natural Attack(claws) and Power Attack for maximum cheese.

This is mostly conjencture, but I'd guesstimate he'll be doing damage with the format of (Power Attack) claw claw(rend) 1d6+8+1d6, bite 1d4+8, horns 1d8+8. Assuming all attacks hit, and why wouldn't they being all primary attacks with the same attack bonus aided by Favored Enemy(not counted in the damage) and buffs, he'll do an average of 44,5 damage on full attack. At level 6.

Oh, almost forgot. He's also an unscrupulous CN mwangi jungle guide who worships Angazhan, the Simian Satan.

This'll be ridiculous. And hilarious!


Lokie wrote:

Has anyone toyed with a build for a Half-Orc Barbarian who focuses on bite attacks?

I'm thinking the character would function much the same as two-handed weapon type character. The bite would be a primary natural attack and thus would function well with power attack and furious focus.

Has anyone done this character?

I made a pretty hilarious Two weapon fighting, rogue biting barbarian. Since it was a short campaign. The DM let me use snap kick 3.5, and a 3.0 feat called dirty fighting where you make another "dirty fighting" attack at 1d4. I was just a beast of rage, just thrashing at anything in my way. :p


I made a Barbarian that used the Toothy half orc thing, with lesser beast totem and lesser fiend totem,, 4 primary nat attacks at full BAB at lvl 4, woot
Next I need to try to get him an amulet of mighty fists - vicious... dirty


The only real problem you have is that fighting with natural weapons and manufactured weapons is at some large penalties.

PFSRD, Attacks, Natural Attacks wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

Ouch ouch and owie. So after two feats you'll be biting at a -2 as a secondary natural attack and swinging a light weapon at a -2. All for one more attack that's not going to do a lot of damage.

Going full natural weapons is never a bad plan. In some ways I like it better than using manufactured weapons since my attack bonuses are mostly the same for all the attacks. In general, you want to find a way to attack with your non-attacking hands/limbs using natural weapons. I'm not saying learn to hold a sword with your feet, but it's something to think about. Maybe tear the teeth off your jaw and put them on your boot?

Dark Archive

most dms would rather run this as a psychotic npc than have a a player focus on it, talk to your dm about it if they seem open give it a shot and learn from it!


Lokie wrote:
Considering that the bite attack gained is a primary natural attack, you get strength and a half on damage. From a raging barbarian this is more than just a "hickey". With power attack active its more along the lines of "I bite its throat out".

Do the math for a mid level melee full attack with a weapon (taking into account that haste is a very common buff, boots of speed and all) and a bite attack.

You will find that you will be getting outdamaged 3 to 1. If you have only a standard action attack the bite is fine, but for full attacks it's a bit silly.


Madcap Storm King wrote:
The only real problem you have is that fighting with natural weapons and manufactured weapons is at some large penalties.

There are two sets of rules for this, the rules in the bestiary disagree.

Seeing as the rules from the core rulebook are insane and all the monsters use the rules from the bestiary a good argument could be made that the rules from the bestiary are the right ones (or at least there is only one designer who thinks the ones from the core rulebook are a good idea and everyone else is just quietly ignoring him).

For what it's worth, they have said the ones in the core rulebook were a left over which would get errata'd.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
Lokie wrote:
Considering that the bite attack gained is a primary natural attack, you get strength and a half on damage. From a raging barbarian this is more than just a "hickey". With power attack active its more along the lines of "I bite its throat out".

Do the math for a mid level melee full attack with a weapon (taking into account that haste is a very common buff, boots of speed and all) and a bite attack.

You will find that you will be getting outdamaged 3 to 1. If you have only a standard action attack the bite is fine, but for full attacks it's a bit a silly.

This. Even comparing to 4 natural attacks/round up there (44.5 damage/round) a barbarian just hitting straight up with a greataxe is going to do equivalent or greater damage if you put the same thought behind the build.

20 strength (doable depending on your point buy/rolls/etc) rages to +7 modifier (+10 with a 2h weapon). Power attack takes this to -2 attack and +6 damage (+16 now).

6 BAB + 7 to hit +mw weapon and let's throw in weapon focus = +15 to hit. with PA that's +13/+8 for d12+16, or an average of about 45 on two hits. No magic weapon or party buffs factored in.

For funsies I can drop in the bite attack rage power at the same +8 for d4+5, bringing that average to 52.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

I had in mind using the Brutal Pugilist archtype with improved natural attack, power attack, furious focus, and eventually the vital strike feats.

Assuming a 18 STR, at 7th level we are looking at Vital Strike for 2d6 + 15 [+6 power attack, +9 STR & 1/2] while raging before any other buffs. I could also select the elemental rage power to pick up an additional 1d6 energy damage.

As I'd mostly be making single bite attacks furious focus is really nice as it allows power attack to give me a straight bonus with no penalties to hit.

3d6 +15 (18-33) damage on a single bite attack aint half bad. A brutal pugilist grappler is pretty brutal as well, and during a grapple I could deal 1d6 +15 damage +1d6 energy each round and completely tie down an enemy.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to purchase or have made either a Belt of Giant Strength or a Belt of Physical Might that I can have improved as the character levels.

At 11th level, Greater Rage kicks in and Improved Vital Strike becomes a option.

I'm not all that good at the math... but it looks promising enough.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
Madcap Storm King wrote:
The only real problem you have is that fighting with natural weapons and manufactured weapons is at some large penalties.

There are two sets of rules for this, the rules in the bestiary disagree.

Seeing as the rules from the core rulebook are insane and all the monsters use the rules from the bestiary a good argument could be made that the rules from the bestiary are the right ones (or at least there is only one designer who thinks the ones from the core rulebook are a good idea and everyone else is just quietly ignoring him).

For what it's worth, they have said the ones in the core rulebook were a left over which would get errata'd.

Well this is the bestiary we're talking about, which has monsters galore not using the rules printed in it. I think there are a handful with one natural attack who don't do 1 1/2 STR damage with their natural weapon. The minotaur comes immediately to mind.

For that creature's stat block at any rate, his secondary weapon is treated normally in a full attack routine at a minus 5... and deals half strength damage. That backs up part of the rules I quoted at any rate, making all natural attacks used with weapons into secondary natural attacks.


Lokie wrote:


3d6 +15 (18-33) damage on a single bite attack aint half bad. A brutal pugilist grappler is pretty brutal as well, and during a grapple I could deal 1d6 +15 damage +1d6 energy each round and completely tie down an enemy.

And this is what makes it work. You're not trying to use the bite attack to outdamage or match a weapon-based barbarian's full attack, you're using it as part of a maneuver. Grappling is good and useful. Damage while grappling is better.

As long as you have a plan for your build beyond "this sounds cool" the build will usually work. There are a lot of feat options/etc. to help you, and it looks like you've found them for a grappling/biting barbarian.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
Phneri wrote:
Lokie wrote:


3d6 +15 (18-33) damage on a single bite attack aint half bad. A brutal pugilist grappler is pretty brutal as well, and during a grapple I could deal 1d6 +15 damage +1d6 energy each round and completely tie down an enemy.

And this is what makes it work. You're not trying to use the bite attack to outdamage or match a weapon-based barbarian's full attack, you're using it as part of a maneuver. Grappling is good and useful. Damage while grappling is better.

As long as you have a plan for your build beyond "this sounds cool" the build will usually work. There are a lot of feat options/etc. to help you, and it looks like you've found them for a grappling/biting barbarian.

I'll admit though, I did start with the mental image of this toothy barbarian charging across a battlefield and latching onto an enemy like some sort of insane bulldog. :)

"Get 'em off me! Get 'em off me!"


If i can tack slight threadjack question in here if natural weapons used with manufactured weapons use all the rules for two weapon fighting wouldn't double slice be applicable?


James Jacobs has stated the Core Rules are Errata and Bestiary is correct, e.g. 2WF rules aren´t used for Manufactured+Naturals:

Quote:
Part of the problem, alas, is that this is a rules mechanic that Jason was wrestling with up to the very last second. The Bestiary rules are correct. The part in the core rules that contradicts this is a fragment, alas, that stuck in there. It should be cleaned up, I agree. It's unfortunate that the confusion is in there, but again, as far as I understand the game and as far as I've been using the rules for the last several volumes of Pathfinder, the rules from the Bestiary are the correct ones.

Of course, it`s easy to see why this is still a source of confusion because after stating they would do so over 14 months ago, the issue still hasn´t been addressed via Errata... But of course, Paizo can assume every player wanting to combine weapons and natural weapons will be familiar with forum posts dating from over a year ago.


Good because the idea that double slice would work scares me :D


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

I just had a great thought... I need some way to give the character "Grab". This way I could actually bite a opponent and start a grapple.

There was a 3.5 feat from the Sandstorm book called "Scorpion's Grasp" that did something like this for unarmed attacks and attacks with light weapons... I just need a feat that would give it to a creature with a bite attack.

Anyone have any ideas?


Lokie wrote:

I just had a great thought... I need some way to give the character "Grab". This way I could actually bite a opponent and start a grapple.

There was a 3.5 feat from the Sandstorm book called "Scorpion's Grasp" that did something like this for unarmed attacks and attacks with light weapons... I just need a feat that would give it to a creature with a bite attack.

Anyone have any ideas?

Yes I do. Complete Champion Bear Totem Barbarian (which is a beast so you could go beast totem as well without messing up the concept if you so chose). Trade Fast Movement for Improved Grab.

Edit: I will note that I haven't really read the barbarian section of my APG yet, so it's entirely possible that there already is a 'bear' totem option that I'm not aware of.


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Lokie wrote:

I just had a great thought... I need some way to give the character "Grab". This way I could actually bite a opponent and start a grapple.

There was a 3.5 feat from the Sandstorm book called "Scorpion's Grasp" that did something like this for unarmed attacks and attacks with light weapons... I just need a feat that would give it to a creature with a bite attack.

Anyone have any ideas?

Yes I do. Complete Champion Bear Totem Barbarian (which is a beast so you could go beast totem as well without messing up the concept if you so chose). Trade Fast Movement for Improved Grab.

Edit: I will note that I haven't really read the barbarian section of my APG yet, so it's entirely possible that there already is a 'bear' totem option that I'm not aware of.

I was unable to find what you are talking about in the Complete Champion. Could you give me a page number please?


Lokie wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Lokie wrote:

I just had a great thought... I need some way to give the character "Grab". This way I could actually bite a opponent and start a grapple.

There was a 3.5 feat from the Sandstorm book called "Scorpion's Grasp" that did something like this for unarmed attacks and attacks with light weapons... I just need a feat that would give it to a creature with a bite attack.

Anyone have any ideas?

Yes I do. Complete Champion Bear Totem Barbarian (which is a beast so you could go beast totem as well without messing up the concept if you so chose). Trade Fast Movement for Improved Grab.

Edit: I will note that I haven't really read the barbarian section of my APG yet, so it's entirely possible that there already is a 'bear' totem option that I'm not aware of.

I was unable to find what you are talking about in the Complete Champion. Could you give me a page number please?

It's on page 46 (or possibly shortly after)


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:

*snip*

It's on page 46 (or possibly shortly after)

Thanks kindly. It helps to know exactly were to look. :)

Ok, so its a alternate class feature. As you said you give up fast movement and gain Improved Grab (I.E. Grab for Pathfinder).

In 3.5 you could pick up single alternate class features, however in Pathfinder you pick up a Archtype and pick up all the alternate class features of that archtype.

I guess it would depend on the DM/GM. If the DM would allow me to pick up the single class feature in exchange for fast movement it could work. However, if the DM decides that I'd have to pick up all the class features as listed under "Spiritual Totem" then I would not be able to combine it with the Brutal Pugilist.


Lokie wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

*snip*

It's on page 46 (or possibly shortly after)

Thanks kindly. It helps to know exactly were to look. :)

Ok, so its a alternate class feature. As you said you give up fast movement and gain Improved Grab (I.E. Grab for Pathfinder).

In 3.5 you could pick up single alternate class features, however in Pathfinder you pick up a Archtype and pick up all the alternate class features of that archtype.

I guess it would depend on the DM/GM. If the DM would allow me to pick up the single class feature in exchange for fast movement it could work. However, if the DM decides that I'd have to pick up all the class features as listed under "Spiritual Totem" then I would not be able to combine it with the Brutal Pugilist.

Well, here's the thing. If the page says it's a 'class variant' then it's the equivalent of an Archtype, and you can't combine them.

But if it says "Alternate Class Feature" then it's no different than choosing a different rage power, or a druid choosing the domain option. It's just that, an Alternate Class Feature. Obviously it's in the GM's hands as to whether or not to permit it, but for purposes of rule interactions it may as well have been printed in the core rulebook as "At level one a Barbarian my gain Fast Movement OR (insert various options)"


Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Lokie wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

*snip*

It's on page 46 (or possibly shortly after)

Thanks kindly. It helps to know exactly were to look. :)

Ok, so its a alternate class feature. As you said you give up fast movement and gain Improved Grab (I.E. Grab for Pathfinder).

In 3.5 you could pick up single alternate class features, however in Pathfinder you pick up a Archtype and pick up all the alternate class features of that archtype.

I guess it would depend on the DM/GM. If the DM would allow me to pick up the single class feature in exchange for fast movement it could work. However, if the DM decides that I'd have to pick up all the class features as listed under "Spiritual Totem" then I would not be able to combine it with the Brutal Pugilist.

Well, here's the thing. If the page says it's a 'class variant' then it's the equivalent of an Archtype, and you can't combine them.

But if it says "Alternate Class Feature" then it's no different than choosing a different rage power, or a druid choosing the domain option. It's just that, an Alternate Class Feature. Obviously it's in the GM's hands as to whether or not to permit it, but for purposes of rule interactions it may as well have been printed in the core rulebook as "At level one a Barbarian my gain Fast Movement OR (insert various options)"

S'all good. Its a good option that I can bring up if I ever get to play the character.

Another option would be to somehow manage huge size so I could pick up "Snatch" from the bestiary. HAH! :)

Shadow Lodge

Phneri wrote:


This. Even comparing to 4 natural attacks/round up there (44.5 damage/round) a barbarian just hitting straight up with a greataxe is going to do equivalent or greater damage if you put the same thought behind the build.

20 strength (doable depending on your point buy/rolls/etc) rages to +7 modifier (+10 with a 2h weapon). Power attack takes this to -2 attack and +6 damage (+16 now).

6 BAB + 7 to hit +mw weapon and let's throw in weapon focus = +15 to hit. with PA that's +13/+8 for d12+16, or an average of about 45 on two hits. No magic weapon or party buffs factored in.

For funsies I can drop in the bite attack rage power at the same +8 for d4+5, bringing that average to 52.

And if you buff the natural weapon ranger with those same things,meaning a feat, some rage and a high strength, his to hit will be one or two lower(lack of mwk, likely only the claws having Weapon Focus), yet with full attack bonus on every hit, he'll statistically hit more often. Damage bonus will be about 4 less, but since every hit has the same chance to hit often, he'll come out on top.

Of course, 19 strength is an entirely insane stat score in beginning. So this theorycraft is rather silly.


Muser wrote:


And if you buff the natural weapon ranger with those same things,meaning a feat, some rage and a high strength, his to hit will be one or two lower(lack of mwk, likely only the claws having Weapon Focus), yet with full attack bonus on every hit, he'll statistically hit more often. Damage bonus will be about 4 less, but since every hit has the same chance to hit often, he'll come out on top.

Of course, 19 strength is an entirely insane stat score in beginning. So this theorycraft is rather silly.

You gave me your ranger feats and such. Specifically. You had +10 to hit 4 times.

I have a +13 and a +8. If you want consistency that +13 is hitting significantly more often than any of your +10s, and isn't dependent on full-attacking the other guy.

And who said 19 starting strength? 18 is easy enough and for wbl I'm at 16,000 by 6. A +2 strength item is pretty cheap (4,000) and still lets me dump 5kish on armor (my go-to would be the +2 breastplate, mithril if we have the change) and 8k for a weapon with a little change left over. That puts me on a 20 that stacks with rage. And honestly, in a higher point buy 20 is totally doable by level 1.

Oh, and I'm now using a magic weapon that's going to make that a +14/+9 and hit for d12+18. Throw a haste on and I'm doing +15/+15/+10 vs. your +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/ Considering I'm going to hit way harder on my attacks and they're going to hit more often this isn't going to benefit you nearly as much.

The theorycraft was the entire point of this post, since you're looking at bite options. My contention was (and still is) the best you're going to be doing is matching a standard 2h weapon build, and burning more options to do so than I do. I've burned 2 feats and 1 rage power above to get to avg 52 damage/round on 3 hits. That means I have 5th level and any bonus feat to freely spend, and 2 more rage powers to spend on new things. I also have a much longer rage and endure elements for free.

I also haven't burned my racial trait or locked into half-orc, which means I could have a human with die hard, invulnerable rager damage reduction, superstition, and flesh wound if I want, which equates to better saves and more hp on top of more skill points.

I'm not saying your biting dude isn't viable. He's a very solid damage machine. In fact the times ranger favored enemy comes into play he's going to do pretty well. I'm saying that you need a purpose behind the build, and the purpose of the natural attacker should be something more than damage, cuz you know, we have axes and stuff.


Lokie wrote:

I just had a great thought... I need some way to give the character "Grab". This way I could actually bite a opponent and start a grapple.

There was a 3.5 feat from the Sandstorm book called "Scorpion's Grasp" that did something like this for unarmed attacks and attacks with light weapons... I just need a feat that would give it to a creature with a bite attack.

Anyone have any ideas?

Hammatula Strike and Hammatula Grasp from the Cheliax book is what you are looking for. It works only for piercing weapons so I think your bite is good to go, but the prereqs are a bit steep.


Phneri wrote:
And this is what makes it work. You're not trying to use the bite attack to outdamage or match a weapon-based barbarian's full attack, you're using it as part of a maneuver. Grappling is good and useful. Damage while grappling is better.

Grappling is much more situational than pure damage.

A martial character should always have pure damage output at a reasonable pace as an option.


Pinky's Brain wrote:

Grappling is much more situational than pure damage.

A martial character should always have pure damage output at a reasonable pace as an option.

Grappling annihilates anything that's based heavily on movement or spellcasting, and removes the ability of most creatures to full attack. It's requirement is you have to be within 1 size category of something bigger than you. A high BAB character picking up grapple bonuses is going to tackle something, pin it, and chew it to death. While it's pinned the rogue is stabbing it to death.

Now, against those creatures where a grapple won't work? Huge creatures(when you don't have an enlarge person handy), incorporeal bad guys (not the fighter's strength, anyway), or something that somehow just outgrapples the raging barbarian (and do the math, that's extremely tough)? Pick up an axe, because he's still got iterative normal attacks and power attack, which is all the pure damage 2h melee monkey needs.

Is he giving up feats to do this? Sure. It's still a totally viable option that's going to be stunningly effective most of the time.


Phneri wrote:
Grappling annihilates anything that's based heavily on movement or spellcasting

Mirror image, DD, Freedom of Movement ...

Quote:
Pick up an axe, because he's still got iterative normal attacks and power attack, which is all the pure damage 2h melee monkey needs.

I just didn't want the OP to get the wrong idea ... he still needs the weapon.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
Phneri wrote:
Grappling annihilates anything that's based heavily on movement or spellcasting

Mirror image, DD, Freedom of Movement ...

mirror image can be almost completely countered via magic missile. Freedom of movement requires both a caster check and a component at hand. Dimension door just prolongs the inevitable.

Also, if I'm making an enemy caster waste actions on pure defense while my party is cleaning up, I'm doing my job. That's a far better situation than letting him move and blast every round.

But yes, options are important. That's why my martial character carries 10 throwing weapons of various range increments, a reach weapon (with trip), melee weapon, and wears spiked gauntlets. And has a bite attack.


Phneri wrote:
Pinky's Brain wrote:
Phneri wrote:
Grappling annihilates anything that's based heavily on movement or spellcasting

Mirror image, DD, Freedom of Movement ...

Freedom of movement requires both a caster check and a component at hand.

10 minutes per level duration.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Phneri wrote:
Pinky's Brain wrote:
Phneri wrote:
Grappling annihilates anything that's based heavily on movement or spellcasting

Mirror image, DD, Freedom of Movement ...

Freedom of movement requires both a caster check and a component at hand.
10 minutes per level duration.

Yup. So if that caster has spent further time and resources to anticipate when the PCs are going to arrive TO THE HOUR, and learn that this ability is a major threat (you know, I'll give the caster that. Any caster should be terrified of grapple), then he can burn that slot (if he has the spell, and if it's been memorized that day) to avoid one aspect of the party's attack.

That's a 4th level summon/blast/SoS that isn't happening because the caster has to play reactionary to this specific ability or immediately die.

I have no problem with this. If the caster has minions I grapple-murder them. If the caster is alone I charge attack/throw javelins/point and laugh while action economy murders him.

A single ability being counterable in a team-based, strategic game does not make it bad.


Phneri wrote:
mirror image can be almost completely countered via magic missile.

BTW, this no longer works in Pathfinder ... mirror images can't be targeted or destroyed by spells without attack rolls.

Shadow Lodge

Phneri wrote:


You gave me your ranger feats and such. Specifically. You had +10 to hit 4 times...

The theorycraft was the entire point of this post, since you're looking at bite options. My contention was (and still is) the best you're going to be doing is matching a standard 2h weapon build, and burning more options to do so than I do. I've burned 2 feats and 1 rage power above to get to avg 52 damage/round on 3 hits. That means I have 5th level and any bonus feat to freely spend, and 2 more rage powers to spend on new things. I also have a much longer rage and endure elements for free.

I also haven't burned my racial trait or...

Look this will be pretty long, so the tl;dr version is that hyberbole and a smattering of assumptions about wealth availability doesn't really help you here. Click below for the long version.

long version:

The actual attack routine for this character with your min-maxing(assuming an amulet of mighty fists) in place would be +13/+13/+12/+12. Then +16/+16/+14/+14 with haste and favored enemy(animals, btw) in play. Significantly more often, what? The only thing lacking from his damage is a higher die(this also assumes you can use that weapon, natural attacks are always available) and 1-1/2 strength modifier.

And talking about viability of full attacks is pretty boss, when your human rager has the same considerations(whether he can full attack) in mind and on top of that has the +8 iterative to worry about when he does. Until both of our characters take greater beast totem and can pounce, asuming you have the rage powers to do it. I don't really see any opponents both of our dudes wouldn't shred to pieces on that level, but there's nothing significant here stacking against the natural weapon specialist. So that's combat capability taken care of. Does he really need some special sthick in combat instead of damage now?

All of this is pretty silly however, when you take note of the campaign we are playing.

First of all, the wbl will likely not come in to play when you are stuck into playing Serpent's Skull. There are no magic marts that I'm aware of(our gm especially warned against doing any assumptions about equipment, like mithril) and you are stuck in a wilderness full of sentient apes and who knows what else, so you'll be raging without that magicked mithril armor, nevermind a +2 greatsword by level 6. Unless you have a party member craft or enchant those. A strength belt is pretty likely however, thanks to Eleder being a small city IIRC, and a weapon-wielder is probably safe in using and expecting a +1 armament too. Or a wand of magic fang(for 750 gp), lol.

However, then we get to the whole akwardness of your build.

First of all, unless your gm allows rolling for stats, the standard point buy available for your character is 15 or 20. If you try for 18 strength, everything else will suffer. So he won't be having that extra wisdom score the apeman has just bought to boost ranger skills and will saves. Or be able to do much besides hit things.

Secondly, that's actually an argument against him, since you are playing in an adventure path, worshipping a demon lord and being an actual character people will react to instead of a theorycraft combat sheet. NPCs and party members will probably notice, and a low int/wis+cha is going to cost you sooner or later.

Third thing, the point of the strange combination of orc, ranger and barbarian was the fact that you can have 4 attacks on level 4(or 3 on level 2, heh) without having to resort to minmaxing. And you need to optimize pretty heavily to get those iteratives your barbarian sports to hit until later. Not to mention being in weak town until you get your first rage power(animar fury right?) and an iterative.

Unlike our friendly porcine who is sporting 3 full bab attacks after a fairly small cost of "burning" a trait and a feat. Power Attack is just gravy, which, funnily enough, is something your character will absolutely need at that level to kill anything. Meanwhile, the ranger is snapping necks. Does a mean bite while grappling as well.

Once we get to low teen levels, however, two-handed rager will start to shine with his earlier greater rage + 1-1/2 bonus from both Power Attack and strength to attacks. In a traditional campaign which assumes a magic mart, he'd probably have some weapon properties available easier too. However, since you're so set on having "better saves and hp", you probably won't be having pounce at that level and full attacks can get scarce.

Another thing, I think that going invulnerable rager+superstition is a trap option which assumes you never get flanked and don't have to swallow a flank bonus on top of your low ac. It also assumes that you can either drop from rage and take the fatigue penalty or have the moment of clarity rage power for healing(unless you kill your opponents on your first turn) since now the party healer will have to check against your will save to heal you. Do you want the healer to take Spell Focus(conjuration) just because of you? Ours is making undead monsters, so he probably won't.

Then there's the issue that you are probably assuming to get faced by swarm type enemies or creatures doing prickle damage since you went for high damage and dr instead of, you know, saving some point buy for dexterity and staying in the more versatile vanillabarian who gets trap sense and uncanny dodge. There's also free natural armor in the beast totem, but since you went for flesh wound et al, you are probably fine with "axes and stuff".

Now, can we agree that my frien's combination is actually pretty powerful? And without stretching a character to its limits. I don't really have the mind to go into this hyberbole thing again.


Dude, totally stole my idea for the next campaign.

Toothy biting guy.

I was however going for a half orc barb/ranger (shapeshifter) I also wanted to pick up that fear scent... "you STINK of fear"

that whole combo idea made the half-orc so much more than just an ugly guy... i really like it!

Scarab Sages

Dark_Mistress wrote:
I think most human sized warrior would be terrified of a bite focused gnome or halfling barbarian. :)

"Chopper! Sic balls!"


Bomanz wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
I think most human sized warrior would be terrified of a bite focused gnome or halfling barbarian. :)
"Chopper! Sic balls!"

"Bunny, Ball Ball..."


Muser wrote:


Look this will be pretty long, so the tl;dr version is that hyberbole and a smattering of assumptions about wealth availability doesn't really help you here. Click below for the long version.

** spoiler omitted **...

Spoiler tags for my response to your pile of silliness.

Movie plot spoiler:

So by locking the setting into one specific setting you've made your build powerful?

That's exactly what I've been saying the entire time. If you're doing something that is highly specialized and focused on doing something other than the 2h power attack barbarian, it's viable. When you put your dude in a setting where you can use favored enemy bonuses regularly, can let cost concerns become a major factor, and when you full attack each round, your dude is strong. When you grapple, he's strong. Great.

Now, regarding the assumptions you've made about my build:

20 point buy gives me 18,16,13,10,9,8 at 1st level with half-elf, human, or half-orc. 13 goes into int for maneuver-based barbarian, charisma for intimidate, or dex for combat dude. I also have useful skills. I know this build because I'm playing this exact thing in another campaign. No problems with him being nonfunctional outside the party so far. Not a single 7 here, and 9 or 10 doesn't really put me outside of basic functionality in a social setting

I'm unconcerned with defense because until level 3-4 I'm killing most things in one hit off d12+12 with a charge. By the time 3-4 has rolled around I'm investing in options that let me do things like trip with a reach weapon, then kill the monster. Uncanny dodge is meaningless to me because I'm a barbarian; I'm not investing heavily in AC because I have a good DR and hit points. By early teens I'll eat a full attack from a dragon/frost giant/whatever and respond in kind. Superstition beefs up weaker saves without penalty (early levels everything dies in 1-2 rounds. Later the actions in combat are better spent doing something other than healing). and flesh wound gives me a free fort save to ignore even more damage.

I'm also not completely shut down in a combat with a dretch or something else with DR 5 (which cripples your 4 attack/round damage output). And I CAN be charging with my iteratives while you're running in for a single hit (that does less than my single hit) because I have 6 levels of barbarian, while your multiclass has hampered that progress).

So yes, your build is strong. Just not as a pure damage build. Because a pure damage build isn't fundamentally crippled when you fight something that isn't an animal or has meaningful DR/some other deterrent for natural attacks.

TL:DR, Never said your build was bad, just highly specialized. You need to acquire a better definition of hyperbole, as average encounters/character wealth/combat options are not it.

Also, please stop taking the critique personally. The question was about a bite-oriented (later bite-oriented grappler). I used your example to elaborate a point. There's no reason to get snippy or presumptive about how I play a game, run a game, or make a character.


Using Phneri's statline of 18,16,13,10,9,8 as melee builds and factoring in no magic at all (unlikely but easier to work from) i made 3 builds and while i doubt my feat choices and rage powers are optimal they are a reasonable build that many people i have played with would possibly go for

Excessive stats hopefully accurate:

Fiend Totem Invunerable rager Barbarian

Male Half orc barbarian 6
CE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 15 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 Dodge, -2 rage)
hp 69 (6d12+18+12 rage)
Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Damage Reduction 3/- fiend totem 1d6 piercing damage to adjancent melee attacks

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee greataxe +10/5 (1d12+15/x3), Bite +5 (1d4+5/x2), Gore +5 (1d8+5/x2)
Special Attacks rage 22 rounds/day, rage powers (lesser fiend totem, elemental totem(1d6 fire damage per attack once per rage) fiend totem

STATISTICS

Str 22, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +12; CMD 24
Feats Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge
Skills Climb +15 Perception +8, Survival +8, Swim +12
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement

Fiend Totem Invunerable Rager Barbarian Ranger

Male Half orc barbarian 4 ranger 2
CE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 Dodge, -2 rage)
hp 67 (4d12+12 +2d10+6 +12 rage)
Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +2
Defensive Abilities Damage Reduction 2/-

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee Bite +10 (1d4+10/x2), Gore +10 (1d8+10/x2) 2 Claw (1d6+10/x2)
Special Attacks rage 16 rounds/day, rage powers (lesser fiend totem, elemental totem(1d6 fire damage per attack once per rage)

STATISTICS

Str 22, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +12; CMD 24
Feats Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack, Aspect of the Beast (Claws), Dodge
Skills Climb +15 Perception +8, Survival +8, Swim +12 Know Nature +4
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement Wild Empathy +1 Favored Enemy Animal

Beast Totem Barbarian

Male Half orc barbarian 6
CE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 Natural, +1 Dodge, -2 rage)
hp 75 (6d12+24+12 rage)
Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Damage Reduction 3/- fiend totem 1d6 piercing damage to adjancent melee attacks

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 Claw +10 (1d8+10/x2) Bite +10 (1d4+10)
Special Attacks rage 12 rounds/day, rage powers (lesser beast totem, elemental totem(1d6 fire damage per attack once per rage) beast totem

STATISTICS

Str 22, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +12; CMD 24
Feats Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge
Skills Climb +15 Perception +8, Survival +8, Swim +12
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement

I may have made some mistakes here and if anyone would like to add appropriate magic items and/or fix the builds without changing the stats i'd be happy to see the results :D


Bertious wrote:

Using Phneri's statline of 18,16,13,10,9,8 as melee builds and factoring in no magic at all (unlikely but easier to work from) i made 3 builds and while i doubt my feat choices and rage powers are optimal they are a reasonable build that many people i have played with would possibly go for

** spoiler omitted **...

Interesting. This is a rough approximation of what I'm running now:

Maneuver Barb:

Invunerable rager Barbarian
Male Half orc barbarian 6
N Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60; Perception +8

DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 8, flat-footed 14 (+6 armor, +0 Dex, +0 Dodge, -2 rage)
hp 69 (6d12+18+6+12 rage)
Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Damage Reduction 3/- Fire Resist 2, Endure elements (heat)

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee MW Guisarme +11/6 (2s4+15/x3), or MW Spiked chain (2d4+15) +11/+6 and Bite +5 (1d4+5/x2) or Trip +12 attack +6

Special Attacks rage 22 rounds/day, rage powers Superstition: Animal Nature, Strength Surge

STATISTICS

Str 22, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +12(+18 SS, +14 trip, +20 SS trip); CMD 22
Feats Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Skills Intimidate +9 Perception +8, Survival +8, Knowledge (Nature) +10,
Ride +9 (5)

Languages Common, Orc, Goblin
SQ fast movement

Note the will save is going to remain terribad for a while. That's not what superstition is for.

Superstition is for my fort save. With low ACP armor (mithril BP or some such) I can virtually ignore a 20ish point hit by 10th level using flesh wound. By 12th level and greater rage I'm on +20 on a fort save and DR 6/-. So reasonable chance of ignoring the charge hit that does 36 or so. Then trip + full attack in response.


The beast totem at 12th would be

Scary:
Beast Totem Barbarian

Male Half orc barbarian 12
CE Medium humanoid (orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60; Perception +14

DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 Natural, +1 Dodge, -2 rage)
hp 140 (12d12 +36 + 36rage)
Fort +14, Ref +6, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Damage Reduction 6/-

OFFENSE

Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 Claw +16 (2d6+16+1d6acid/x3)(+2d10 acid on crit) Bite +16 (1d4+16+d6 acid/x2)+1d10 acid on crit)
Special Attacks rage 41 rounds/day, rage powers (lesser beast totem, elemental totem(1d6 fire damage per attack once per rage) beast totem, elemental rage.acid, greater beast totem, greater elemental rage

STATISTICS

Str 26, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 32
Feats Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack Claws, Dodge, Eldrich Claws, Lunge, Multiattack
Skills Climb +23 Perception +14, Survival +14, Swim +20
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement, pounce

He can now add a one handed weapon for

Melee Longsword +16/+11/+6 (1d8+16+1d6/19-20x2)(+1d10 acid on crit) Claw +14 (2d6+8+1d6 acid/x3)(2d10 acid on crit) Bite )1d4+8+1d6/x2)(+1d10 on crit)
With pounce :)

1 to 50 of 85 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Biting Focused Barbarian? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.