Dagger throwing isn't a fighting style that's well supported by the rules at this point in core - but I'm interested in playing a dagger-tossing Magus in Pathfinder Society play. Are there any PFS legal feats from other sources that would be essential to a dagger-thrower build?
Just about any of your ranged combat feats are good for a dagger thrower. My suggestion is a fighter who specializes in daggers. Weapon Spec. (dagger) + Weapon Training + Deadly Aim + a decent STR stat add up to a excellent damage bonus.
I'm surprised to see you say this... it seems to be supported well..
Definitely going to want Quick Draw, as it allows you to pull multiple daggers out in a round (assuming you have multiple attacks due to BAB, Haste, Speed, etc).
If you want more than one dagger at a time, then you'll want Two Weapon Fighting.
And of course who can forget Point Plank Shot (+1 to attack and damage to targets inside 30ft) and Precise Shot (negates the Throwing at a target engaged in Melee penalties).
Double Slice also allows you to get your full STR bonus to the damage rolls of the offhanded dagger throw.
It's not supported well because you can't use magic enhancements effectively.
In 3.5 there are a couple of tricks to solve that problem, PF has none ... so it quickly falls behind compared to shurikens (which can be enhanced with GMW and Flame Arrow 50 at a time).
Of course the Magus can't use shurikens with spell combat, so that's not an option here.
Why not? You can draw shurikens and throw them with one hand while casting spells with the other.
..Oh! Huh. Well.
I like Javelins with the Catch Off-Guard feat to allow you to use them in melee. They do d6 instead of d4 damage, but more importantly have 30' range instead of 10'.
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Best bet for a dagger guy for general use:
Weapon Focus (dagger), Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specialization, Quick Draw, Fighter Weapon Training (light blades) - Class feature
Melee:
Power Attack (not great but you gotta), Doubleslice
For ranged:
Point Black Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim
The big advantage of daggers is you can focus a lot of feats on one weapon for both ranged and up close rather than spreading it about. The downside of daggers is it's really F*ing hard to do enough damage to make it worth while. I almost think you can do more damage with ranged attacks using Deadly Aim than in melee. Of course if you are throwing two+ daggers/ round magic weapons are ridiculously expensive.
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I like Javelins with the Catch Off-Guard feat to allow you to use them in melee. They do d6 instead of d4 damage, but more importantly have 30' range instead of 10'.What about weight? Javelins weigh 4 times as much, 2 lb./ea.
At low levels 8 would be more than enough, 16 lbs worth. By 5th level or so you are going to want an efficient quiver for most any ranged weapon regardless.
Putting Returning on your daggers would be a fine idea..
Range: Any attack at more than this distance is penalized for range. Beyond this range, the attack takes a cumulative –2 penalty for each full range increment (or fraction thereof) of distance to the target. For example, a dagger (with a range of 10 feet) thrown at a target that is 25 feet away would incur a –4 penalty. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot to 10 range increments.
Can be mitigated with Far Shot, as noted above.
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Putting Returning on your daggers would be a fine idea..
Returning is going to be at least 8,000 (+1 Returning) for just one dagger at 22 PA. The earliest he could get it would be 3rd level, just before level 4 was achieved. While that's not too shabby, it's still 16k for pair. A bit of a feat in terms of cash at ~4th level. It may be fully realized until 5th or even 6th if the character is also keeping up in terms of armor and consumables.
Just a word of warning, is all. I generally try to avoid builds that are dependent upon specific enchantments/gear to function in campaigns like these.
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Putting Returning on your daggers would be a fine idea..Returning is going to be at least 8,000 (+1 Returning) for just one dagger at 22 PA. The earliest he could get it would be 3rd level, just before level 4 was achieved. While that's not too shabby, it's still 16k for pair. A bit of a feat in terms of cash at ~4th level. It may be fully realized until 5th or even 6th if the character is also keeping up in terms of armor and consumables.
Just a word of warning, is all. I generally try to avoid builds that are dependent upon specific enchantments/gear to function in campaigns like these.
Unfortunately rules-wise the dual dagger build is discouraged in a lot of ways. Kind of a bummer.
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Unfortunately rules-wise the dual dagger build is discouraged in a lot of ways. Kind of a bummer.
I once played a dual dagger wielding rogue. Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike could combine with two-weapon feat tree and sneak attack for great effect, if you can get someone to flank with you or make you invisible.
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Unfortunately rules-wise the dual dagger build is discouraged in a lot of ways. Kind of a bummer.I once played a dual dagger wielding rogue. Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike could combine with two-weapon feat tree and sneak attack for great effect, if you can get someone to flank with you or make you invisible.
We're talking a thrown dagger build, in which TWF is abused to get an extra throw.
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Unfortunately rules-wise the dual dagger build is discouraged in a lot of ways. Kind of a bummer.I once played a dual dagger wielding rogue. Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike could combine with two-weapon feat tree and sneak attack for great effect, if you can get someone to flank with you or make you invisible.
Erm... I was thinking largely in terms of throwers when I made that comment... wasn't very clear.
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We're talking a thrown dagger build, in which TWF is abused to get an extra throw.Unfortunately rules-wise the dual dagger build is discouraged in a lot of ways. Kind of a bummer.I once played a dual dagger wielding rogue. Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike could combine with two-weapon feat tree and sneak attack for great effect, if you can get someone to flank with you or make you invisible.
TWF is "abused"? I suppose if by abused you mean used as designed...
"The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. "
Or is there some weird feat tree that gives TWF throwers some silly advantage?
I like the concept of a dagger thrower but it's just not practical when compared to using a bow because with a bow you only need one magic weapon and it imbues the ammo. With daggers, you have to make EVERY one of them enchanted individually.
On the other hand, if you could create a magic glove that temporarily enchanted your daggers it would work well.
A glove that works on thrown weapons like a bow works on arrows would go really far in making a dagger thrower worth it.
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Diversion from original topic:
To be honest a method to make something like this work is to use two hand crossbows rather than daggers. While it takes an exotic weapon proficiency you don't need to worry about quick draw and most likely won't need to worry about rapid reload (since it's an exotic anyways, you might as well take repeating light crossbow... or a level in inquisitor!). The theme/feel of the character is a little different, but it would work for dual-wielding ranged weapon. You don't get Str to damage, but you do get the benefits of dual-wielding and ammo.
Back to the original topic:
A magus with dagger throwing wouldn't be too bad of a build. Your biggest problem is going to be with the "multiple weapon" problem. Since you can't enchant returning with arcane pool, you're left with buying the actual items. However with arcane strike it isn't a huge issue. The feat makes your weapon "count as magical" for the purposes of DR, so you can actually rely on that for damage. You'll effectively have one main weapon that you'll use with spell pool. You'd make it a +1 returning dagger as soon as possible and just have a large stock of other weapons on hand.
So essential feats:
1) quick draw
H) rapid shot
3) arcane strike
3MA) arcane accuracy
5) point blank shot
5B) precise shot
6MA) Empowered Magic
7) far shot
9) Deadly Aim
9MA) Hasted Assault
11) Weapon Focus
11B) Weapon Specialization
12MA) Spell Blending/Maximized Magic
Just a quick put together that I thought of. Also quick draw/rapid shot can be swapped with point blank shot/precise shot if you feel that you want one very accurate shot versus two not very accurate shots.
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TWF is "abused"? I suppose if by abused you mean used as designed..."The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. "
Or is there some weird feat tree that gives TWF throwers some silly advantage?
No, but most people when they think of TWF think melee builds. I'm not saying that wasn't the design, it was more in jest.