| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
On pages 461 and 548-549 (in Core rules) the following is outlined as the requirements for crafting magical items:
1. items have prereqs
2. prereqs must be met
3. they may be met by others (than the crafter)
4. each prereq not met by you (crafter) increases the DC by +5
5. the exception is the item creation feats themselves which (the crafter) must always have
6. and (the crafter) cannot make spell completion/trigger (wand/potion) items without meeting spell prerequisites
We're having a debate whether the +5 to DC is a matter of replacing the requirement; or whether it is the penalty you pay for somebody else to provide the requirement.
The rules as provided lend support to both interpretations, as far as I can tell.
Anybody have a know?
The language, especially the line in the PRD coming right after the not-met prerequisites bit ("you can't create spell trigger and spell completion items without meeting their spell requirement"), makes me think that the +5 can (otherwise) replace the requirement, but you seem to be right that the rules are unclear. For my part, I can't give you a confident answer.
"you can't create spell trigger and spell completion items without meeting their spell requirement"
To me this means that you're not allowed to use of friends' spells to make those items (wands/potions mostly).
...
Not to bias people, but in my opinion the rules should not allow anybody to be able to make any item simply by concentrating hard enough.
Additionally, some requirements do not make sense to simply +5. For example, if you need to be Caster Level 15 to make a +5 cloak of resistance. Then you should not be able to do it at level 3 simply by concentrating really really hard. Even if you had a lot of money. As written, there is no distinction (at Caster Level 3) in terms of meeting the requirements of a +2 cloak of resistance and a +5 cloak of resistance; although they clearly have differing requirements.
But in contrast, the rules as written do make sense if the requirement (15th level caster) has to be met. And if you (as the crafter) are not providing that requirement, then the craft DC goes up by +5. Balance and scaling neatly built-in.
I'm reading the intent of the rules differently, to me, they seem intended so that (for one example) your sorcerer with his limited spells known isn't permanently screwed in the item crafting department; it's simply much more difficult for him to bind the type of magic that doesn't come naturally to him into an item.
On a flavor level, cursed items often come about when casters attempt items that are beyond them and subsequently fail the (added difficulty) check. Where do you think those cursed cloaks come from if not the failed efforts of those 3rd level apprentices at creating master level items?
It also isn't concentrating really hard or anything to do with it; it's a Spellcraft check, representing skill with magic item crafting. There also is a major distinction between the cloak +2 and the cloak +5 in terms of the materials your apprentice will ruin when he screws it up.
So I think making sense is not as exclusively on your side of it. But I can see where you are coming from, and clearer rules would be appreciated.
To answer you question. Yes the feats allow you to bypass anything that is not excluded with special rules.
Now a couple of comments. The total DC for the cloak you listed would be Base 5 with a +15 for the caster level with a +5 for not meeting that caster level. So the DC is a minimum of 25 Spellcraft Check. At 3rd level the best you can probably do is 3 ranks, +3 trained, +6 ability, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Magical Aptitude, +1 Trait for a total of +18 to the roll. Crafter Fortune Spell could give you another +5. But to get there you started with a 20 ability, have a +2 INT item, spent max skill ranks, spent three feats, and then STILL have to come up with the money and time at that level for the costs. If you fail the roll the money is gone and you may have a cursed item if you fail by enough. So in your example a PC is 100% dedicated to making magic items AND the DM gave WAY to much money to the character for his level.
So taking a step back the problem you outlined is not the ability to make the item, but there are other issues related to that example.
Something to think about is SHOULD a player be able to make magic items? Back in the day you could make anything your DM allowed by ninth level or so. In more recent history you could make some stuff at low level and others at high level but you had to spend feats, money, time, and XP to do so. Under Pathfinder you can make things with money, time and feats but the result is not a sure thing. Make something within your control and ability and you are fine... try and push the edge of what you can do and you risk severe danger.
Remember that cursed items are now much more dangerous then in the past. And a roll like that should be done by the DM so the player does not know if he succeeded or not. And removing a caster level 15 cursed item is now much harder to do... even harder for a character dabbling in the realm of magic he does not understand.
If you do not want a player to be making magic items then have that discussion with the group prior to character creation and set the expectation. It is unfair to a player to limit a feat without warning in a game. The main limitation is making sure to control how much money the party gets. If one player is abusing the item creation rules then do not award as much COIN in game and give out items. All characters get to use the items as normal at full value, but the crafter is limited in what he can sell and make with the DM setting the limits.
If in my game a player somehow came up with that much money and wanted to give it a try I would allow it. I would make the roll and if he/she failed I would create a cursed INT item as something was attracted by the uncontrolled power the character failed to wield properly.
To answer you question. Yes the feats allow you to bypass anything that is not excluded with special rules.
... The total DC for the cloak you listed would be Base 5 with a +15 for the caster level with a +5 for not meeting that caster level.
I think I wasn't quite clear enough.
A lot of players that read the rules jump to the conclusion that the crafting rules allow you to pay +5 to the DC to ignore a requirement. This is not necessarily the case:
By inspecting the rules closer it states that "all requirements must be met" and that "the DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet". This does not imply that the DC is increased to meet the prerequisite, it implies that there is a penalty if the caster does not meet the prerequisites (but this does not absolve the crafting as a whole from having to meet the prerequisites). This would be a problem if the text did not also explains that others may help meet the prerequisites. This also neatly side-steps the whole Caster-Level problems.
@Coriat:
I don't really see the problem with a sorcerer crafter. Yes, he has a harder time getting all the right spells if he wants to be able to make every item possible. But he can easily craft any item for which he has appropriate spell knowledge anyway. And he can easily (high Charisma) befriend a wizard or cleric or someone that has the missing spells he needs to do a particular bit of crafting. He can even invest in a staff that grants him access to a spell that he needs for crafting, if he's desperate. Or use wish (at high levels) to emulate any spell.
But there is nothing that suggests that crafting should be "fair". Different casters have different spell lists and casting mechanics for a reason. There is nothing to suggest that for the purpose of crafting everybody should be equal.
Here is a link to the FAQ. The below is an excerpt from that link posted by Mr Reynolds.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create ...SNIP...He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
So that is pretty clear that items can be bypassed with a +5 unless specifically excluded unless I am really not understanding the language.
I suggest you strictly adhere to a policy of requiring a character to meet the CL to make a magic item. Without any XP cost the CL is the most important barrier to making any given magic item.
Pearl of power 1st level. 500g to make. Gotta wait til 17th level!?! Not sure about that.
I suggest you strictly adhere to a policy of requiring a character to meet the CL to make a magic item. Without any XP cost the CL is the most important barrier to making any given magic item.
The post where I linked the FAQ clearly stats the Caster Level can be bypassed. That said if a DM wants to limit what his players can do that is just fine and why we have a rule zero and should not be a problem for any mature group.
The main limitations are having the time and the money to make an item. And for MOST players the skill is a limit too. A real min/max player CAN focus on the skill as I listed above to be able to make some VERY good rolls... but that same MIN/MAX player is giving up all the power of feats they would usually take to make a strong character.
The ability to make the dice role is a small portion of making an item with a small amount of risk. Try and make stuff that is too far above your level and you get even more risk. (Cursed items can be memorable if the DM plays them up right... just get creative and go beyond the boring -4 to X or whatever.) The real control a DM has is setting expectations and controlling the amount of gold the group gets.
So that covers the rules questions... now on to opinion. :)
As to the gold farming player above... that is what a conversation is for with the players. If I had a character that was REALLY going over the top as you described I would make the character an NPC Merchant and have him/her roll up an new adventuring character.
(BTW that is why I do not allow leadership to get a cohort with crafting ability. Spending one feat to bypass perhaps dozens of feats for item creation is the pinnacle of cheese. In our group anyone can make a character they will have fun with, but pure cheese is really frowned upon in a long term game and will result in a group discussion on keeping in line with a friendly game.)
I suggest you strictly adhere to a policy of requiring a character to meet the CL to make a magic item. Without any XP cost the CL is the most important barrier to making any given magic item.Pearl of power 1st level. 500g to make. Gotta wait til 17th level!?! Not sure about that.
Ruling by Developer Sean K. Reynolds:
Caster level is only a prerequisite for creating the item IF the caster level is LISTED in the Requirements section of the item (for an example, see amulet of mighty fists).The text on page 460 is a little unclear and probably is derived from the (wrong) SRD text taken from the (wrong) DMG 3.0 magic item introduction (where Monte wrote it correctly, then someone changed it to something wrong and that's how it got published, and fixed in the errata for 3.0, and then 3.5 was written by updating the original 3.0 Word documents, which didn't incorporate the 3.0 errata, and thus went to print with wrong information again). Anyway, caster level is NOT a prereq unless the item's Requirement section specifically lists a caster level.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/magicItemCreationAndCasterLevel&page=1&source=search#0
4th post.