Arcane Pool Vs Magic Weapon spells


Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion

The Exchange

Checking the base 'empowering a weapon' ability of the Arcane Pool class feature again, it struck me that it fast becomes a very inefficient use of your pool points.

For one pool point you empower your weapon for one minute. But the Magic Weapon spell empowers it for 1 minute per level. When you hit level 4 and get the Spell Pool feature you can choose to spend one pool point to add a +1 bonus for 1 minute, or spend one pool point to cast Magic Weapon and add a +1 bonus for 4 minutes. At 5th and 6th levels at least the base Arcane pool feature adds a +2 bonus, Vs. the spell's +1, so you can choose +2 bonus for one minute, or +1 bonus for five or six minutes, for that use of a pool point. Then you hit level 7, gain access to the Magic Weapon, Greater spell, which actually gives a slightly higher bonus (or rather the same bonus, one level earlier) and lasts for 1 hour per level, for the cost of 3 pool points (Vs. the 3 minutes you'd get using the base ability). At 11th level you get the Improved Spell Pool, so get to choose: for 2 pool points you get either the 'base' Arcane Pool bonus for 2 minutes, or Magic Weapon, Greater for 11 hours...

Obviously the Arcane Pool ability lets you add in nifty effects instead of the various raw 'pluses', but by level 11 you're 3 BAB behind the pure melee guys, so you may want the pluses to try to keep up.

I'm guessing the base ability and the spells can stack as well (seeing as the base Arcane Pool ability stacks with magic weapons), but from a standpoint of managing your resources using that base ability becomes something of a waste after first level, and just gets worse as you progress through the class.

Maybe the base Arcane Pool ability should last for 1 minute per level, to help balance this and maintain it's usefulness? I'd even go so far as to suggest letting it jump to 1 hour per level at level 7, to match the spells. It's the key ability of the class in many ways, and should be a good one. Also, allowing a longer duration means the character can actually do more melee fighting, matching the 'focused in melee and spells' fluff more than the BAB gap (Vs full BAB melee fighters) as the class progresses would tend to suggest at the moment.


Plusses from GMW does not stack with plusses from empower weapon.

The huge advantage empowering a weapon has over GMW is that it stacks with plusses from magic weapons. If you rely on GMW for all your plusses, your losing +1 right off the top. i.e. your +1 Holy Shocking Burst axe becomes a +3 Holy Shocking Burst Axe. Net gain of +2 at level 13 vs. +4 with empower weapon.

Also, 1 min is an entire combat. Empower Weapon only costs 4-5 points to have it going for just about every battle.

The Exchange

Hmmm... Correcting myself, the Arcane Pool empowerment gives +1 and an additional +1 per 4 levels above 1, and Magic Weapon, Greater gives +1 per four levels flat, so the bonus is better on the Arcane Pool, but not the duration (by a lot).

Quote:
Also, 1 min is an entire combat. Empower Weapon only costs 4-5 points to have it going for just about every battle.

Not sure on that one. If both the PCs and their opponents always fight to the last man, and the encounter numbers follow the basic pattern, then yes, I see your point. But fights can easily out-last a minute if there's running combat, hit and run tactics, and lots of other stuff going on - such as pausing to talk to your opponents before slaughtering them... So I guess that one's down to play style. And 4-5 points to cover every battle is a lot of your pool (assuming an Int of 16 it's all your pool until you hit level 6).


You raise some valid points, however at least till level 3, 4 if you chose an Arcana that does not use points.

Once you reach level 5 if you own a masterwork weapon, the spell magic weapon only gives +1 to damage. If you already own a magic weapon ... the spell magic weapon has no effect. Personally one I would try to get a +1 spellstoring weapon ASAP. So at level 5 you could make it a +1 spellstoring keen flaming ...

At level 7 the fun starts here:

Upgrade your weapon to +1 spell storing keen.
Add greater magic weapon .. well it does nothing for you until level 8
Add arcane pool for a +1 spell storing keen flaming frost ...

So my point is that GMW and arcane pool don´t have to fight, you just have to figure out how they can be most effectively combined.


Quantum Steve wrote:

Plusses from GMW does not stack with plusses from empower weapon.

The huge advantage empowering a weapon has over GMW is that it stacks with plusses from magic weapons. If you rely on GMW for all your plusses, your losing +1 right off the top. i.e. your +1 Holy Shocking Burst axe becomes a +3 Holy Shocking Burst Axe. Net gain of +2 at level 13 vs. +4 with empower weapon.

Also, 1 min is an entire combat. Empower Weapon only costs 4-5 points to have it going for just about every battle.

To clarify, empowering a +3 weapon as a level 10 magus can turn it into a +3 keen flaming frost weapon, but not into a +5 keen weapon.


The most efficient thing to do is going to be getting a +1 weapon, casting GMW on it when you can, then using Pool points to tack on all sorts of abilities.

This sort of reaches a break point eventually, when the combination hits +10 total, but until then you'll be swinging a nifty weapon before other classes have the chance.

At 9th level, if you already own a +2 weapon (let's say +1 Spellstoring Scimitar), you can use GMW to make it a +2 Spellstoring Scimitar, then use a Pool point to make it a +2 Spellstoring Flaming Frost Shock Scimitar (a +6 weapon).

At 12th level it becomes a +3 Spellstoring Flaming Frost Shock Scimitar. If you actually pay to get the weapon enchanted up, you could even add Corrosive.

At 13th level it becomes a +3 Spellstoring Keen Flaming Frost Corrosive Shocking Scimitar. That's a +9 weapon at level 13, for the cost of a +3 weapon, a 3rd level spell slot, and 1 Pool point.

Not too shabby. After that, as GMW increases and you pour money into your weapon, the benefits of the Pool point decrease, but until that point, then it's pretty decent.


Like others have said the big difference is stacking. For instance in my playtest, the magus turned her +3 rapier into a +5 flaming rapier. You cant do that with a greater magic weapon spells. It's flexibility also allows you to adapt to what gear you find/are granted better then a magic weapon spell. If you have a +4 sword, greater magic weapon wont do you any good at all. But arcane pool will, you can make yourself a +5 flaming keen sword for 1 minute. And if you instead have a +1 flaming keen whathaveyou sword, well you can add enhancement to it instead. That is way more useful the greater magic weapon, and a steal at 1 point per pop.

The other advantage is action. Using the arcane pool ability takes 1 swift action. You can do it and still use spell combat or some other full round action. Greater Magic Weapon is a standard action, meaning all you have left is a move. Thats a big difference.

And while some fights will last more then a minute, the average in my experience (and a pretty strong consensus) is 5 rounds. Leaving 5 rounds leehway from the average.


Sylvanite wrote:

The most efficient thing to do is going to be getting a +1 weapon, casting GMW on it when you can, then using Pool points to tack on all sorts of abilities.

This sort of reaches a break point eventually, when the combination hits +10 total, but until then you'll be swinging a nifty weapon before other classes have the chance.

At 9th level, if you already own a +2 weapon (let's say +1 Spellstoring Scimitar), you can use GMW to make it a +2 Spellstoring Scimitar, then use a Pool point to make it a +2 Spellstoring Flaming Frost Shock Scimitar (a +6 weapon).

At 12th level it becomes a +3 Spellstoring Flaming Frost Shock Scimitar. If you actually pay to get the weapon enchanted up, you could even add Corrosive.

At 13th level it becomes a +3 Spellstoring Keen Flaming Frost Corrosive Shocking Scimitar. That's a +9 weapon at level 13, for the cost of a +3 weapon, a 3rd level spell slot, and 1 Pool point.

Not too shabby. After that, as GMW increases and you pour money into your weapon, the benefits of the Pool point decrease, but until that point, then it's pretty decent.

Agree, but you don´t have to upgrade your weapon over about +1 spell storing and use the money you save on pearls of power^^


Kolokotroni wrote:

Like others have said the big difference is stacking. For instance in my playtest, the magus turned her +3 rapier into a +5 flaming rapier. You cant do that with a greater magic weapon spells. It's flexibility also allows you to adapt to what gear you find/are granted better then a magic weapon spell. If you have a +4 sword, greater magic weapon wont do you any good at all. But arcane pool will, you can make yourself a +5 flaming keen sword for 1 minute. And if you instead have a +1 flaming keen whathaveyou sword, well you can add enhancement to it instead. That is way more useful the greater magic weapon, and a steal at 1 point per pop.

The other advantage is action. Using the arcane pool ability takes 1 swift action. You can do it and still use spell combat or some other full round action. Greater Magic Weapon is a standard action, meaning all you have left is a move. Thats a big difference.

And while some fights will last more then a minute, the average in my experience (and a pretty strong consensus) is 5 rounds. Leaving 5 rounds leehway from the average.

Sorry but it doesn´t work that way, you cant use arcane pool to turn a +4 into a +5 weapon since the ability gives and enhancement bonus and those don´t stack. You could turn it ino a +4 flaming keen .... though.


Greater Magic Weapon lasts an HOUR PER CASTER LEVEL. It shouldn't be factored into action economy, because if you're casting it in combat, you're doing it wrong.

Yes, spending pool points will allow you to go above the enhancement bonus for your level, like the player in your test. If it's hitting you want, then that certainly makes it easier. I personally think the best use is as I described right above your post by combining GMW with the pool points, but if you just want to jack up your chance to hit over adding tons of special effects, then you can certainly go that route.

For example, if I were your player in the playtest, I would have taken a +1 Rapier with Spellstoring and Corrosive properties, then used GMW to make it +2, and used Pool points according to whether I wanted more attack bonus, or more effects for damage. With all the buffs flying around I might have gone with adding shock, flaming, and frost to get an extra 3d6 to each attack.

Lot of flexibility certainly by combining the different ways to enhance weapons.

@Banpai: The enhancement bonus from the pool point ability specifically states that it stacks with existing enhancement bonuses on the weapon. You actually can do it the way he was saying.


Banpai wrote:
Sorry but it doesn´t work that way, you cant use arcane pool to turn a +4 into a +5 weapon since the ability gives and enhancement bonus and those don´t stack. You could turn it ino a +4 flaming keen .... though.

Actually the ability specifically says it stacks:

"These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5."

The Exchange

This is all interesting stuff! Even though, at first glance, it looks like the Arcane Pool is almost there so the Magus doesn't need a magic weapon, it's actually, to a certain extent, the other way round. Thinking about the couple of quick Magus builds I put up in the build thread, I'm now seeing that Craft Magic Arms and Armour could be a must... unless you're playing in a game which makes sure everyone gets the particular magic weapons they want anyway (or magic shops abound).

I still think I'd like to see the Arcane Pool weapon-boost increased to 1 minute per level, if only to avoid the sense that you have to take the 'get in and hack everything' approach to combat to ensure it's over before your ten precious rounds of juice are up - the sort of thing you get with some spells now, especially at low levels - but it's hardly a deal-breaker.


Sylvanite wrote:

Greater Magic Weapon lasts an HOUR PER CASTER LEVEL. It shouldn't be factored into action economy, because if you're casting it in combat, you're doing it wrong.

Yes, spending pool points will allow you to go above the enhancement bonus for your level, like the player in your test. If it's hitting you want, then that certainly makes it easier. I personally think the best use is as I described right above your post by combining GMW with the pool points, but if you just want to jack up your chance to hit over adding tons of special effects, then you can certainly go that route.

For example, if I were your player in the playtest, I would have taken a +1 Rapier with Spellstoring and Corrosive properties, then used GMW to make it +2, and used Pool points according to whether I wanted more attack bonus, or more effects for damage. With all the buffs flying around I might have gone with adding shock, flaming, and frost to get an extra 3d6 to each attack.

Lot of flexibility certainly by combining the different ways to enhance weapons.

@Banpai: The enhancement bonus from the pool point ability specifically states that it stacks with existing enhancement bonuses on the weapon. You actually can do it the way he was saying.

WarColonel wrote:
Banpai wrote:
Sorry but it doesn´t work that way, you cant use arcane pool to turn a +4 into a +5 weapon since the ability gives and enhancement bonus and those don´t stack. You could turn it ino a +4 flaming keen .... though.

Actually the ability specifically says it stacks:

"These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5."

Thanks guys, it´s amazing how often you can miss a sentence. So this means you could have a +5 enhancement bonus weapon from a +1 base at level 8 - nice ^^


ProfPotts wrote:

This is all interesting stuff! Even though, at first glance, it looks like the Arcane Pool is almost there so the Magus doesn't need a magic weapon, it's actually, to a certain extent, the other way round. Thinking about the couple of quick Magus builds I put up in the build thread, I'm now seeing that Craft Magic Arms and Armour could be a must... unless you're playing in a game which makes sure everyone gets the particular magic weapons they want anyway (or magic shops abound).

I still think I'd like to see the Arcane Pool weapon-boost increased to 1 minute per level, if only to avoid the sense that you have to take the 'get in and hack everything' approach to combat to ensure it's over before your ten precious rounds of juice are up - the sort of thing you get with some spells now, especially at low levels - but it's hardly a deal-breaker.

Oh you could always beat then unconcious, plenty of time to ask questions later if you do not mind having to deal with the problem of killing an unarmed prisoner.

Craft Magic Arms and Armour seems like a solid choice even if something like spell storing requires level 12 (I am not sure if you can ignore that one with a +5 on the check).


No, caster levels on weapons and armor can't be changed like they can on some items. Ya gots to be 12th level... or have a buddy NPC who's willing to hang around for the few days it takes you (both) to enchant it.


I pointed this out in another thread but, you could always use a specific named weapon then use arcane pool to stack abilities onto it. Normally, you can't do that for items like sun blades.

Scarab Sages

Why wouldn't you be able to stack the enhancement bonus from Arcane Pool onto the enhancement bonus from Greater Magic Weapon? It does say that it stacks right in the ability description. So yes, it is possible, by level what, 8, to get a weapon with a total of +5 enhancement or maybe even greater, enhancement bonus (with weapon abilities, of course).

Or, again, you could just use Greater Magic Weapon and use all of your Arcane Pool enhancement points on special abilities, or just mix and match Enhancement Bonus and special abilities as you see fit.

Playtest wrote:

These bonuses AND properties

are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and
cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses
this ability.

(emphasis mine)

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