To Hit Bonus, TW, and Magus


Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion


Is it just me or does the magus stack up on the to-hit side of things no where near a fighter. They have an intermediate base attack bonus to start. Their spells and class abilities really do not do that much to make up for that. Spell Pool while makes up for this in the lower levels quickly becomes obsolete as a melee type as magic weapons become available. This fact and the fact that a lot of the classes abilities require a hand free open, this also makes the class really poor as a two weapon fighter.

Am I wrong in this conclusion?

If I am right. simple solution; eliminate the +5 cap. This brings them to par with a full base attack, but not perfectly, and leaves the spells to be to-par with a fighter's weapons training. This still does not leave a standard TWF magus very solid unless they are using unarmed strike or natural weapons.


More or less. Spell Pool doesn't ever become obsolete: The to-hit bonuses are all cumulative with whatever you currently have (Accuracy is insight), even specifically stacking with your magic weapon's.

The loss of damage from going 1h isn't too grave either. Mostly it's just a loss on power attack, for you can use your 150% str bonus on your weapon at all times (taking a hand off the weapon to cast a spell is a free action).


Quote:
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5.

Since the enhancement caps out at +5 the to-hit bonus caps out at the item level. Making it not really that good a class ability in this aspect. It does however make a good ability for adding other effects on it.


Synapse wrote:


The loss of damage from going 1h isn't too grave either. Mostly it's just a loss on power attack, for you can use your 150% str bonus on your weapon at all times (taking a hand off the weapon to cast a spell is a free action).

No it doesn't but I would always prefer any class that is supposed to go into melee be able to support TWF. This was a key problem in 3.5 as there was zero pay of thus why they made changes to the paladin's smite evil and the fighter got weapons training.

P.S. As is I can see a magus wanting to do TWF going to Eldrich Knight ASAP, and still not being worth it.

P.P.S. Oh I just read. The total bonus is +10, so as soon as you get two +6 weapons the class ability becomes less worth it.

Not being able to stack with arcane strike just seems unreasonable. If this ability was untyped and maintains its self not requiring a swift action every round. Even then it is still sup-par and only mildly mitigates the cost for the character. If you can buy the ability with gold and make it work better than the class ability it really is a very week ability.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Synapse wrote:


The loss of damage from going 1h isn't too grave either. Mostly it's just a loss on power attack, for you can use your 150% str bonus on your weapon at all times (taking a hand off the weapon to cast a spell is a free action).

No it doesn't but I would always prefer any class that is supposed to go into melee be able to support TWF. This was a key problem in 3.5 as there was zero pay of thus why they made changes to the paladin's smite evil and the fighter got weapons training.

P.S. As is I can see a magus wanting to do TWF going to Eldrich Knight ASAP, and still not being worth it.

P.P.S. Oh I just read. The total bonus is +10, so as soon as you get two +6 weapons the class ability becomes less worth it.

Not being able to stack with arcane strike just seems unreasonable. If this ability was untyped and maintains its self not requiring a swift action every round. Even then it is still sup-par and only mildly mitigates the cost for the character. If you can buy the ability with gold and make it work better than the class ability it really is a very week ability.

The ability is compatible with arcane strike. It only takes 1 swift action per minute to use. Those other 9 rounds work fine stacking them. This is better than a bard with bardic music.

At higher levels, you will have spells up that will keep you on par with more melee classes. This ability will keep most people up with a bard until lvl 10 or so for hit and damage without spells. After that, their hit will suffer but they will be outputting more damage (assuming taking the standard elemental types). They will also be getting a spell at the same time as their full attack, so personally I think this is a solid tradeoff.

Dark Archive

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Is it just me or does the magus stack up on the to-hit side of things no where near a fighter. They have an intermediate base attack bonus to start. Their spells and class abilities really do not do that much to make up for that. Spell Pool while makes up for this in the lower levels quickly becomes obsolete as a melee type as magic weapons become available. This fact and the fact that a lot of the classes abilities require a hand free open, this also makes the class really poor as a two weapon fighter.

Am I wrong in this conclusion?

If I am right. simple solution; eliminate the +5 cap. This brings them to par with a full base attack, but not perfectly, and leaves the spells to be to-par with a fighter's weapons training. This still does not leave a standard TWF magus very solid unless they are using unarmed strike or natural weapons.

None of this is new, and Paizo didn't address any of these with the new version. I'm not sure what can be done. There's just nothing they can do about it other than Bull's Strength and True Strike I believe.


BYC wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

Is it just me or does the magus stack up on the to-hit side of things no where near a fighter. They have an intermediate base attack bonus to start. Their spells and class abilities really do not do that much to make up for that. Spell Pool while makes up for this in the lower levels quickly becomes obsolete as a melee type as magic weapons become available. This fact and the fact that a lot of the classes abilities require a hand free open, this also makes the class really poor as a two weapon fighter.

Am I wrong in this conclusion?

If I am right. simple solution; eliminate the +5 cap. This brings them to par with a full base attack, but not perfectly, and leaves the spells to be to-par with a fighter's weapons training. This still does not leave a standard TWF magus very solid unless they are using unarmed strike or natural weapons.

None of this is new, and Paizo didn't address any of these with the new version. I'm not sure what can be done. There's just nothing they can do about it other than Bull's Strength and True Strike I believe.

Bull's Strength is useless as well because characters commonly get items that are better than the spell's power and don't take up a spell use and action to use.

I fear this magus is getting the 3.5 Monk treatment. No good at anything because they are too focused on one or the other. This class should have been ether a full base attack with this casting, or this base attack with full casting. This in-between isnt working out for Jason and his class designing style.

I think a simple fix would be take this class ability, and make the bonus UNTYPED. This makes it to par with full base attack, but not more than a fighter with weapons training, and it has a limited use. This I could see as a reason for not letting it stack with the feat.


Caineach wrote:

At higher levels, you will have spells up that will keep you on par with more melee classes. This ability will keep most people up with a bard until lvl 10 or so for hit and damage without spells. After that, their hit will suffer but they will be outputting more damage (assuming taking the standard elemental types). They will also be getting a spell at the same time as their full attack, so personally I think this is a solid tradeoff.

Some examples please.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Caineach wrote:

At higher levels, you will have spells up that will keep you on par with more melee classes. This ability will keep most people up with a bard until lvl 10 or so for hit and damage without spells. After that, their hit will suffer but they will be outputting more damage (assuming taking the standard elemental types). They will also be getting a spell at the same time as their full attack, so personally I think this is a solid tradeoff.

Some examples please.

The true power of magic doesn't come from trying to emulate fighters, but turning them obsolete. A well placed wall of force does more for a fight than all the ac in the world and a +10 to bab when it nulls the effectiveness of most of the encounter's enemies.

The poly lines gives you immunities and new forms of attack.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


No it doesn't but I would always prefer any class that is supposed to go into melee be able to support TWF. This was a key problem in 3.5 as there was zero pay of thus why they made changes to the paladin's smite evil and the fighter got weapons training.

I think that a major perception problem is seeing this class as a fighter.

It isn't one and is not supposed to be comparable in melee damage relying on weapon swings alone. He's supposed to be mixing spellcasting with his melee damage, not trying to boost it up by using great swords or two weapons. This makes it vastly different from any of the other martial classes including the semi-casting paladin and ranger for whom spellcasting is really just a hobby. For the magus spellcasting is as much his bread and butter as blade wielding.


Synapse wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Caineach wrote:

At higher levels, you will have spells up that will keep you on par with more melee classes. This ability will keep most people up with a bard until lvl 10 or so for hit and damage without spells. After that, their hit will suffer but they will be outputting more damage (assuming taking the standard elemental types). They will also be getting a spell at the same time as their full attack, so personally I think this is a solid tradeoff.

Some examples please.
The true power of magic doesn't come from trying to emulate fighters, but turning them obsolete. A well placed wall of force does more for a fight than all the ac in the world and a +10 to bab when it nulls the effectiveness of most of the encounter's enemies.

It also nullifies the effectiveness of your one-handed melee focused Magus (not to mention the rest of your party), presuming he can even cast Wall of Force. But I will let you try again.


It separates enemies and let you deal with them in a more controlled manner instead of being mobbed.
Teleport is one of the main examples of spells that break the game. Another one is Dispel and Greater Dispel. Pyrotechnics is an easy way to blind the fighter. Baleful Polymorph is another one. Haste is one of the more famous obligatory buffs, as is Slow for debuffs.

Just look at the magus spell list. All levels have spells that put them at significant advantages over noncasters, as is natural to most vancian casting classes. Even at early levels they can just keep the fighter dazed for at least half the fight.

Scarab Sages

I actually love the new magus abilities.

Sure, you don't get the amazing to-hit of the fighter, but with heroism and greater magic weapon running, stacking weapon abilities with your +5 weapon can really help your damage output, especially for the burst abilities and a keen weapon.

Plus, nothing helps that hasted full-attack (power attack) more than the Accuracy Arcana (which is sitting at a +6 to hit with all attacks at level 12 for me). Even if my intelligence was 4 points lower it would be awesome. And, again, the Arcane Pool can do many more things than that!

One of the things I love about Magus, looking at level 4+, is the ability to prepare a wider variety of spells thanks to the Arcane Pool. The ability to recall a Magus spell for, at most, 2 pool points is amazing. The new arcana's consuming Arcane Pool points are also awesome. Basically, if you don't like the Magic Weapon aspect of the Arcane Pool, you can spend your points on all sorts of other goodies. Immediate reaction shield bonus to AC? Yes please. Need to recall your Scorching Ray you blew last fight, empower it (with a rod, of course), and use it on your spell-storing weapon? Not a problem.

I haven't gotten the chance to playtest my magus yet, but I will soon. Needless to say, I'm excited about the possibilities.

*Edit: Forgot to mention this, but in a recent thread regarding the stacking of Arcane Strike and the Magical Weapon ability granted by the arcane pool, the developers mentioned that the two are not intended to stack. I can somewhat agree with this reasoning. Why?

Would you rather arcane strike, burn a swift action, and add 5 damage at MOST? Or would you rather burn an Arcane Pool point as a swift action that lasts a minute to add Fiery Burst, Icy Burst, and Shock to your weapon? Remember, even at lower levels, we're talking about Fiery Burst vs. a +2 bonus to damage. Or enhancing your weapon from a +1 to +3, which is a +2 to HIT and damage. Trust me, them not stacking may seem bad, but it's only because the Arcane Pool ability, in my mind, is WAY better.

Dark Archive

Davor wrote:

I actually love the new magus abilities.

Sure, you don't get the amazing to-hit of the fighter, but with heroism and greater magic weapon running, stacking weapon abilities with your +5 weapon can really help your damage output, especially for the burst abilities and a keen weapon.

Plus, nothing helps that hasted full-attack (power attack) more than the Accuracy Arcana (which is sitting at a +6 to hit with all attacks at level 12 for me). Even if my intelligence was 4 points lower it would be awesome. And, again, the Arcane Pool can do many more things than that!

One of the things I love about Magus, looking at level 4+, is the ability to prepare a wider variety of spells thanks to the Arcane Pool. The ability to recall a Magus spell for, at most, 2 pool points is amazing. The new arcana's consuming Arcane Pool points are also awesome. Basically, if you don't like the Magic Weapon aspect of the Arcane Pool, you can spend your points on all sorts of other goodies. Immediate reaction shield bonus to AC? Yes please. Need to recall your Scorching Ray you blew last fight, empower it (with a rod, of course), and use it on your spell-storing weapon? Not a problem.

I haven't gotten the chance to playtest my magus yet, but I will soon. Needless to say, I'm excited about the possibilities.

*Edit: Forgot to mention this, but in a recent thread regarding the stacking of Arcane Strike and the Magical Weapon ability granted by the arcane pool, the developers mentioned that the two are not intended to stack. I can somewhat agree with this reasoning. Why?

Would you rather arcane strike, burn a swift action, and add 5 damage at MOST? Or would you rather burn an Arcane Pool point as a swift action that lasts a minute to add Fiery Burst, Icy Burst, and Shock to your weapon? Remember, even at lower levels, we're talking about Fiery Burst vs. a +2 bonus to damage. Or enhancing your weapon from a +1 to +3, which is a +2 to HIT and damage. Trust me, them not stacking may seem bad, but it's only because the Arcane Pool...

I'd rather use a feat and swift. I'd save my arcane pool for casting spells I don't have memorized. d6 every 3 levels is not a lot. +1 is not a lot either, but it gets multiplied on crits.

I think it's a big problem when druids and clerics are better at fighting because of their buffs. Magus is better than before, but without those good buff spells and without SoDs, they aren't a threat.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Caineach wrote:

At higher levels, you will have spells up that will keep you on par with more melee classes. This ability will keep most people up with a bard until lvl 10 or so for hit and damage without spells. After that, their hit will suffer but they will be outputting more damage (assuming taking the standard elemental types). They will also be getting a spell at the same time as their full attack, so personally I think this is a solid tradeoff.

Some examples please.

examples of what?

basic math:
Bard and magus have the same BAB. They both get +1 to hit and damage at 1st and 5th levels, with the magus's bonus growing faster (every 4 after 5th instead of every 6). Bard is considered good enough by most people to be an acceptable secondary melee character, so I consider the Bard the bar to measure by.

Around level 10 is when you start hitting +3 weapons, which will cause you conflict with the enhancement bonuses from your arcane pool, and you will be forced to switch to elemental bonuses for 1d6 damage. +1 hit has been shown to be roughly equivalent to 2.5 damage, making this an even trade-off in DPR against average AC opponents, an increase against below average, and a decrease against high AC. This will hold true until arrond level 15, when you start to see greater than +5 weapons. Therefore, for most of the character's career it will be fully effective.

At level 15, the magus has a minimum of 25 spells per day, and he can cast them while attacking, albeit at -2 to hit. Many of these spells do extra damage, and others buff, but he also has a mix of croud control. This puts him in the unique position to buff while full attacking and not wasting rounds, or disabling distant foes while taking care of close ones. Most days, he will have a spell to cast whenever he wants it, and he has enough variety in the list to usually have something worthwhile. For damage, almost all the offensive spells have a secondary effect on a successful save (reflex for half), so if you want to be dishing out the damage he is likely able to keep up. I have not run numbers for this yet, but adding 15d6 to a bard at that level would put them in the range of a fighter at that level.

Scarab Sages

BYC wrote:

I'd rather use a feat and swift. I'd save my arcane pool for casting spells I don't have memorized. d6 every 3 levels is not a lot. +1 is not a lot either, but it gets multiplied on crits.

I think it's a big problem when druids and clerics are better at fighting because of their buffs. Magus is better than before, but without those good buff spells and without SoDs, they aren't a threat.

Okay, well, let's compare that arcane strike with the weapon abilities. 1d6 averages out to 3.5 damage per hit. Pre-level 5, this is way better than Arcane Strike. As the levels climb, Arcane Strike catches up, because it can multiply on a crit (2 damage, 4 damage, etc.). However, by the time Arcane Strike can multiply on a crit, you're putting Flaming Burst on a weapon, which adds an extra 1d10 if you're using a scimitar/rapier. So, in addition to the 3.5 from the ability, we've got an extra 5.5 on a crit, bringing us up to 8 extra damage, whereas Arcane Strike requires you to be at level 15 before you start getting the prerequisite damage for that.

Now, I'm not saying that COMBINED the two wouldn't be awesome, just that it's not the end of the world if they can't. Yeah, you can't boost your weapon above +10 total... but why would that even come up? Sure, in endgame stuff (18-20) that could be an issue, but for a majority of the game, the part people play the most, the magus ability is flat out better than arcane strike (against creatures that don't have resistances). Even then, if you can't bypass elemental resistances, you can just take arcane strike anyways and use it without amplifying your weapon via the magus ability. It just says the two abilities don't stack, not that you can't take Arcane Strike. However, even if that WERE the case, it would probably still be more beneficial to increase your weapon enhancement bonus by the listed amount than use Arcane Strike, solely because it increases your hit chance.

And remember, the bonus lasts for 1 minute. That's longer than most fights will take, so if you desperately need to nova your Arcane Pool to use your buffing abilities, you can do that with your swift actions in combat.

Dark Archive

Davor wrote:
BYC wrote:

I'd rather use a feat and swift. I'd save my arcane pool for casting spells I don't have memorized. d6 every 3 levels is not a lot. +1 is not a lot either, but it gets multiplied on crits.

I think it's a big problem when druids and clerics are better at fighting because of their buffs. Magus is better than before, but without those good buff spells and without SoDs, they aren't a threat.

Okay, well, let's compare that arcane strike with the weapon abilities. 1d6 averages out to 3.5 damage per hit. Pre-level 5, this is way better than Arcane Strike. As the levels climb, Arcane Strike catches up, because it can multiply on a crit (2 damage, 4 damage, etc.). However, by the time Arcane Strike can multiply on a crit, you're putting Flaming Burst on a weapon, which adds an extra 1d10 if you're using a scimitar/rapier. So, in addition to the 3.5 from the ability, we've got an extra 5.5 on a crit, bringing us up to 8 extra damage, whereas Arcane Strike requires you to be at level 15 before you start getting the prerequisite damage for that.

Now, I'm not saying that COMBINED the two wouldn't be awesome, just that it's not the end of the world if they can't. Yeah, you can't boost your weapon above +10 total... but why would that even come up? Sure, in endgame stuff (18-20) that could be an issue, but for a majority of the game, the part people play the most, the magus ability is flat out better than arcane strike (against creatures that don't have resistances). Even then, if you can't bypass elemental resistances, you can just take arcane strike anyways and use it without amplifying your weapon via the magus ability. It just says the two abilities don't stack, not that you can't take Arcane Strike. However, even if that WERE the case, it would probably still be more beneficial to increase your weapon enhancement bonus by the listed amount than use Arcane Strike, solely because it increases your hit chance.

And remember, the bonus lasts for 1 minute. That's longer than most fights will...

The biggest question is why Paizo didn't just allow INT bonus to be added to melee. Even if it's was Insightful Strike like swashbuckler (precise damage), it'd be better than wasting resources to keep up with melee classes.

Scarab Sages

See, I don't mind spending resources to succeed in melee, because, well, basically every class has to make that choice (every class that can, anyways). If a cleric want's to be successful in melee, he needs to sacrifice spells to do it. Same for a Bard, although the bard gets off a little easier with Inspire Courage. Basically, for a Magus, if you wanna hit hard in melee you have to choose to designate your resources towards doing so. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but the fact is that, if you choose to do so, you can focus on spellcasting and get a LOT of variety with your spell selection, and still be able to fight in melee in a pinch thanks to your various melee-augmenting abilities.

This class, to me, feel very much like a caster who uses his magic to augment his melee abilities almost EXCLUSIVELY, which is very much what I would expect from a class from Ultimate Magic.

Dark Archive

Davor wrote:

See, I don't mind spending resources to succeed in melee, because, well, basically every class has to make that choice (every class that can, anyways). If a cleric want's to be successful in melee, he needs to sacrifice spells to do it. Same for a Bard, although the bard gets off a little easier with Inspire Courage. Basically, for a Magus, if you wanna hit hard in melee you have to choose to designate your resources towards doing so. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but the fact is that, if you choose to do so, you can focus on spellcasting and get a LOT of variety with your spell selection, and still be able to fight in melee in a pinch thanks to your various melee-augmenting abilities.

This class, to me, feel very much like a caster who uses his magic to augment his melee abilities almost EXCLUSIVELY, which is very much what I would expect from a class from Ultimate Magic.

What I am saying is there's not enough to sacrifice. I don't think all of the abilities buff the melee part enough. And if everything is spent on buffing the melee, there's not enough Pool for other abilities.

I think this can be solved by having more buff spells. I know most people like the damage spells, but I rather have buffs that lasts the entire encounter, not just 1 attack.

Where's Blink? Where's False Life? Where's Ghoul's Touch? Where's Darkvision? Where's HEROISM?!?!

If they gave Summoner Haste as a 2nd level spell, they can do the same with Magus, who is definitely suppose to fight, as opposed to Summoner, who can choose not to fight. Stoneskin should be level 3 also.

Aid is divine, but it would not be unreasonable for magus. Death Knell makes sense for evil magus. Freedom of Movement is on the bard list, but not on magus.

Not having divine spells makes some sense, although bard has divine spells on his list. But not having arcane melee help spells like Blink, Darkvision, Heroism especially, is just...lame.


LazarX wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:


No it doesn't but I would always prefer any class that is supposed to go into melee be able to support TWF. This was a key problem in 3.5 as there was zero pay of thus why they made changes to the paladin's smite evil and the fighter got weapons training.

I think that a major perception problem is seeing this class as a fighter.

It isn't one and is not supposed to be comparable in melee damage relying on weapon swings alone. He's supposed to be mixing spellcasting with his melee damage, not trying to boost it up by using great swords or two weapons. This makes it vastly different from any of the other martial classes including the semi-casting paladin and ranger for whom spellcasting is really just a hobby. For the magus spellcasting is as much his bread and butter as blade wielding.

Being support is one thing, being dwarfed (no pun intended) is another. I believe this class, with spells and limited time and use abilities should have a total to-hit bonus equal to level in bonus types that can not be duplicated by magic items. This still leaves the weapon focus/weapon specialization feat trees, and the weapon training to be much further above them. This makes the suitable melee types, but not the best.


My problem is that at lower levels, you either have to take penalties to your already sub-par attack to cast defensively, or burn feats on Combat Casting (which a Magus should get for free to make it easier for them). Casting defensively at lower levels can be tough.

The other solution is to 5' step out of combat to cast after your attack. This of course leaves whatever you are fighting free to go after squishier party members without soaking any sort of AoO. The other problem is that the Magus thrives on a full attack, so stepping back negates that if the target moves away. That negates pretty much the whole point of the magus, which is to full attack and cast a spell.

Just to sum up, you're already below a fighter BAB wise. You take -2 to all your attacks, possibly more if you want to actually cast a spell defensively (or you are stuck burning a feat on combat casting that progression in the class will eventually render useless). Your damage is lower because you have to use a one-handed weapon, and it also nerfs power attack since the ability states that you need the hand free (it is considered the second weapon of TWF...meaning you can't just let go of a weapon you are two-handing for a second to cast the spell).

Arcane Accuracy fixes some of this (but eats your swift action which is limiting for many reasons...it also highlights the MAD problems of the class).

MAD: You want Int because your abilties key off of it. You want Str because your damage and attack is low. You want Dex because for most of your career you will be in lighter armor with no shield. You want Con because you are a front-line type (with probably sub-par AC). This all adds up to a bad situation on one end or the other.


+1


Um pardon me but if a magus can't cause a weapon to go over a +10 bonus, how Do I handle named weapons like sun swords? Those don't list a total numerical bonus for all there powers.


If it doesn't have a listed bonus, it's an extra power and not something you need to account for in terms of the +10 cap.

Just add up the enhancement bonus along with powers that have a listed enhancement bonus and that's all you need to worry about. Extra stuff like is found on some specific weapons is taken into account in their price, but doesn't count to a +10 cap.


So would a sun blade be +2 or +4 then. Between increased incentive to use staffs and extra benefits from specific weapons, the Magus seems to be buffing a lot of underused parts of the game.


A sun blade is a +2 bastard sword with a bunch of extra stuff, which is why it costs 50k instead of 8k.

What extra benefits from specific weapons do Magi get? What underused parts of the game are they buffing? I just don't follow where you're going is all.

He doesn't really get specific benefits from staves either, just an aracana that allows him to cast a spell with them in the off hand like his normal ability works.


Sylvanite wrote:

A sun blade is a +2 bastard sword with a bunch of extra stuff, which is why it costs 50k instead of 8k.

What extra benefits from specific weapons do Magi get? What underused parts of the game are they buffing? I just don't follow where you're going is all.

He doesn't really get specific benefits from staves either, just an aracana that allows him to cast a spell with them in the off hand like his normal ability works.

No AoO for casting from staves. Also they can buff specific weapons by giving them abilities such a flaming that are not in the package description.


I don't see a problem with their to hit. At any time you can switch from raw damage to better hit by casting a spell and using your free touch attack to deal damage every round. Take Close Combat and get a Scorching Ray wand, problem solved.

Also, if a magus had as good to hit as a fighter, why even bother playing a fighter?


Ok So a couple things:

1. The magus is intentionally meant to not work with 2handed and two weapon fighting. This is a power limitation. This is not an omission or something that's lacking. The character gets to cast a spell AND attack. No one else can do this since the days of 3.0 haste. It shouldn't be put together with the most optimal forms of attacking also.

2. To hit: There are lots of ways the magus can help themselves hit. The obvious ways are:
atting +x using the enhancement bonuses. This works well into mid levels, in my playtest a level 11 magus got a +2 bonus to hit and damage as well as a +1 other kind of bonus out of this ability.
Arcane Accuracy.

The mostly obvious ways[read spells]: Trustrike (which she can cast and attack in the same round)
Bulls Str/Cats Grace(untill they get enhancement items to cover their stats)
Haste - duh
Invisibility-this one is really good. My magus in the playtest did this twice, full attacking, then casting invisibility, not only is it harder to hit her back, but it also provides a substantial attack bonus on the first attack the next round.
Greater invisibilty- same as invisibility but continuous

Then there are debuff spells:
Grease - easier to hit people on the ground or who are balancing
Glitterdust - blind people are easier to hit
Slow - like haste in reverse
Black tentacles - Easier to hit someone who is grappled.
Beast shape and elemental body spells the stat bonuses you can get from these spells (as well as an increased number of attacks) can help you hit.

3. Damage:
Arcane pool adding enhancements to your weapon.
Cast a damage spell and attack with one handed weapon. Fighters do more damage then a fireball to a single target. They dont do more damage then a fireball AND a couple of buffed one handed attacks.
Enlarge person
Haste
Beast shape and elemental body spells - increased strength, natural attacks, pretty solid jump in damage, if clarification is needed see druid.
Arcane strike (this does stack with empowering your weapon with arcane pool)
chill touch (cast this once and if you are second level or higher you can add +1d6 and potential strength damage to your level worth of hits with your regular weapon.
Fire sheild - hurt them for hurting you
Weapon specialization - yea so it turns out you can take this at level 10 (well level 11)

4. Its not all about to hit and damage:
The magus may not do the same damage as a fighter most of the time, and thats a good thing. You SHOULDN'T replace the fighter with a magus. The magus does some damage (though not worthless damage if buffed) AND can cast a spell. Thats the whole thing. You get to do both. So i can trip a guy with a grease spell and attack him in the same round. Or i can blast someone with a fireball and then poke him with my sword. I can trap one guy in a web and then attack another. The action economy benefits of magus definately equal out the loss of overall damage.

The class doesnt match the fighter or a wizard in direct power with any single thing, but the flexibility and variety of what you can do adds up to a solid class.


That's a good synopsis of the class. I think you've changed my mind. I still have some worries about the class, but I can see how it'll be a unique player with its ability to change the action economy.

I just wish I had a chance to playtest it from 1 on up!

Dark Archive

Kolokotroni wrote:


Beast shape and elemental body spells - increased strength, natural attacks, pretty solid jump in damage, if clarification is needed see druid.

I'm not sure how much these help the Magus. Elemental Body II could be useful in some cases. However, if I remember correctly, elementals are one of those types where your gear gets absorbed into the new form. That likely means a hit to AC, though, damage will be about the same but quite possibly lower depending on the weapon used.

I suppose your GM might allow you to adopt a humanoid elemental form that would allow you to take off your gear, cast the spell, and then put it back on.


BYC wrote:
Davor wrote:

See, I don't mind spending resources to succeed in melee, because, well, basically every class has to make that choice (every class that can, anyways). If a cleric want's to be successful in melee, he needs to sacrifice spells to do it. Same for a Bard, although the bard gets off a little easier with Inspire Courage. Basically, for a Magus, if you wanna hit hard in melee you have to choose to designate your resources towards doing so. Yeah, it kinda sucks, but the fact is that, if you choose to do so, you can focus on spellcasting and get a LOT of variety with your spell selection, and still be able to fight in melee in a pinch thanks to your various melee-augmenting abilities.

This class, to me, feel very much like a caster who uses his magic to augment his melee abilities almost EXCLUSIVELY, which is very much what I would expect from a class from Ultimate Magic.

What I am saying is there's not enough to sacrifice. I don't think all of the abilities buff the melee part enough. And if everything is spent on buffing the melee, there's not enough Pool for other abilities.

I think this can be solved by having more buff spells. I know most people like the damage spells, but I rather have buffs that lasts the entire encounter, not just 1 attack.

Where's Blink? Where's False Life? Where's Ghoul's Touch? Where's Darkvision? Where's HEROISM?!?!

If they gave Summoner Haste as a 2nd level spell, they can do the same with Magus, who is definitely suppose to fight, as opposed to Summoner, who can choose not to fight. Stoneskin should be level 3 also.

Aid is divine, but it would not be unreasonable for magus. Death Knell makes sense for evil magus. Freedom of Movement is on the bard list, but not on magus.

Not having divine spells makes some sense, although bard has divine spells on his list. But not having arcane melee help spells like Blink, Darkvision, Heroism especially, is just...lame.

I agree that the most of the buffs that a magus has access to through the use of his/her spell pool should last longer.

However, they do have Hasted Assault(su), which gives haste for a number of rounds equal to the magus's int bonus...

Thats no bad. However, as mentioned above I do believe that abilities such as Spell Shield and Arcane Accuracy should last longer. At 20th level, a magus with a intelligence of 30 will only have 20 spell pool points and to ask that player to sacrifice 5% of his/her daily allotment for 1 round of buffs is a little ridiculous - Then take into account abilities like Dispelling Strike and Reflection...

A magus would have to expend an enormous percentage of his/her spell points just to reflect one mid-level spell or dispel one mid-level spell on a target...

Thoughts?


At ninth level a magus can spend a swift action to give his weapon the speed special ability which would be better than a +2 and +1 equivlent ability, while still having a full attack plus spell to cast. At ninth level these spells will be 3rd spell level or lower which includes Greater Magical weapon, vampiric touch, displacement, and Keen Edge -- even if you do nothing but boost your own weapon you can go from having a normal weapon to a +2 speed weapon while getting a full attack all in the same round.

That's nothing to complain about.

Chill touch is a nice spell to land in a weapon (adding possible strength damage to each hit and 1d6 negative energy damage to the hits as well is useful), as is glitterdust (before the full attack), invisibility at the end of the attack, and so on.

Personally I'm a bit more partial to piranha strike for the Magus than I am power attack since it cuts down on the mad, and I imagine many dervish magus builds are will be presented on the boards if they aren't showing up already.

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