Hey guys and gals:
I see a lot of people come to these boards looking for help with making the Warrior Mage archetype work in Pathfinder. I want to get a collection of pretty optimal and fun builds going for this style of play, and maybe even turn it into a guide eventually...something that can be linked to in order to help out the many people who want to make the (sometimes frustrating to build) concept work.
I know the Magus will be coming soon as official, but I also know that it doesn't quite cut it for some people as well. So, I will start with a few builds I've seen around. Any comments/suggestions/tactics for playing this style of character is welcome.
Ranged:
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1
Ranger 6/Wizard 2/Arcane Archer 4/Eldritch Knight 8
Melee-Support:
Arcane Duelist 16/Dragon Disciple 4
Melee:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10
Alright....jump on in and tell me what I'm missing/getting wrong!
(Eventually I will want to even explore feats for the builds and spell selections etc. but for now just collecting the best builds is the first step...feel free to comment about anything regarding this archetype tho)
If DM allows non core paizo stuff:
Sorcerer (Draconic Copper Bloodline) 5/Dragon Disciple 4/ Dragon Disciple 6
At 9th level this build gets a acid breath weapon and qualifyies for Noxious Bite from Pathfinder Chronicles: Dragons Revisited:
Noxious Bite (Monster)
Your acid-dripping breath causes those you bite to become ill.
Prerequisites: Acid breath weapon, bite attack.
Benefit: Your bite attack deals 1 point of acid damage in addition to its normal damage. Living creatures you bite must make a Fortitude save (DC equal your breath weapon's DC) or be nauseated for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round).
This turns every successfull bite attack into a save or suck spell.
(DC = 10 + (Sorcerer + DD levels)/2 + Con mod).
Breiti
P.S.: This build is just a fun build. Any smart DM will not allow such feats ... This is more a build for DMs who like battles with a high TPK possibility ;-)
From another EK based thread given by Abraham Spalding:
Bard 8/Paladin 2/Eldritch Knight 10
Bard 4/Paladin 2/DD 4/Eldritch Knight 10.
Casting in armor and with shields, with good CL by the end.
Edit: Why can't I edit the OP?!?!? Ugh. Dislike. This needs to be fixed or handbooks become very hard to do.
I'd like to suggest that each post contain just one build to keep the thread easy to reference, link, and quote.
Also please give an explanation of your build in the same post, possibly with advantages, disadvantages, reasoning, suggested feats or tactics, or whatever you think is relevant.
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Bard 20
- + Favored class bonus at every level
+ Average BAB
+ Cast in light armor and use shields
+ Good weapon selection
+ Class abilities don't stop leveling
+ Can heal
+ Good class skills, including Use Magic Device based on primary casting stat, all Knowledge skills, and Acrobatics
+ 6 skill points per level
- Limited to 6th level spells
- Limited spell list
Why not start with the original fighting spellcaster? A bard is pretty good at both fighting and spellcasting, and has a few other tricks up his sleeve too. Unlike cross class or prestige class solutions, a Bard will get +1 HP (or +1 skill point) every level for all 20 levels.
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Bard 20 - Arcane Duelist
- + All the +/- of a Bard
+ Arcane Strike & Bladethirst enhance weapon DPR
+ Bonus Feats: Combat Casting, Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Penetrating Strike, and Greater Penetrating Strike
+ Arcane Bond (weapon) at level 5 increases spellcasting ability
+ Cast in medium armor at level 10
- Loses four Bard abilities, none of which are especially useful to an Arcane fighter: Countersong, Well-Versed, Loremaster, Jack of All Trades
This is a Bard, slightly less skilled, slightly better at fighting and casting. Probably a better option all around for this thread's purposes.
I'd like to suggest that each post contain just one build to keep the thread easy to reference, link, and quote.
Also please give an explanation of your build in the same post, possibly with advantages, disadvantages, reasoning, suggested feats or tactics, or whatever you think is relevant.
.Bard 20
+ Favored class bonus at every level
+ Average BAB
+ Cast in light armor and use shields
+ Good weapon selection
+ Class abilities don't stop leveling
+ Can heal
+ Good class skills, including Use Magic Device based on primary casting stat, all Knowledge skills, and Acrobatics
+ 6 skill points per level- Limited to 6th level spells
- Limited spell list
Why not start with the original fighting spellcaster? A bard is pretty good at both fighting and spellcasting, and has a few other tricks up his sleeve too. Unlike cross class or prestige class solutions, a Bard will get +1 HP (or +1 skill point) every level for all 20 levels.
This is a prelimary thread to gather ideas in general, I plan on putting together a more organized easy to reference document with spoilers and everything if I can get a real good bunch of info from the community outta this brainstorming thread.
Bard is good. The Arcane Duelist/DD build is almost straight bard as you're suggesting, but picks up some things that put him ahead in the last 4 levels with DD, I think.
Edit: Good info. I will work on doing some breakdowns for the builds I have already included.
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1
+17 BAB means full iterative attacks
+17 caster levels means 9th level spells, plus with trait and ioun stone easily CL 20 for full GMW and Arcane Strike among others
+Access to Wiz/Sorc spell list
+Imbue Arrow shenanigans
+Spell Critical shenanigans
+5 bonus feats
+Access to some Fighter only feats
+Specialist Wizard stuff (Enhancement and Teleportation focused schools are nice
+High Damage potential at range
-Focus on Dex and Str means low Con and not high DCs on spells
-Lack of armor (offset somewhat by Dex and Mage Armor style spells)
-Behind a full caster for when they relatively gain spells (not what you're really aimed at tho)
-Behind a full BAB class for iterative attack progression (made up for by versatility spellcasting gives to a degree)
Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 3/Eldritch Knight +7/Arcane Archer +1
+Spell Critical shenanigans
-Focus on Dex and Str means low Con and not high DCs on spells
-Lack of armor (offset somewhat by Dex and Mage Armor style spells)
I quite like this build. It is good at what it does, and is a quite passable secondary caster as well.
I just want to point out how much I HATE Spell Critical! It can be argued there is some marginal value in it with a build that can threaten a crit 25% of the time, but even then it is only okay and only when you have 4+ of those attacks running. Arcane Striking is almost always just flat out better. And, Spell Crit becomes even worse when you have a 9th level spells build, because you have Quickened Spell as an option too.
Lack of armor and CON aren't really significant for a ranged build, which is why I like this one so much. The lower DCs are saddening, as it does make Imbue Arrow a little less awesome, but you will still get the Best Trick Evar: Anti-Magic Field on an arrow.
This is a prelimary thread to gather ideas in general, I plan on putting together a more organized easy to reference document with spoilers and everything if I can get a real good bunch of info from the community outta this brainstorming thread.
Sounds good! Brainstorming in one thread, edit for format and post the builds in another thread - that will make a nice Gish handbook.
Sounds good! Brainstorming in one thread, edit for format and post the builds in another thread - that will make a nice Gish handbook.
Yeah, I'd like to get something sort of banged out for people to rely on and build on when Ultimate Magic hits. It'll provide a nice baseline for comparing the Magus as well in its final form. Plus, then we can add without trying to reinvent the wheel.
The lack of being able to re-edit the OP over and over makes my soul hurt, tho.
@Casey: That's my favorite build in all of Pathfinder. Passable second caster (for non-DC stuff), real nice DPR, all the wizard defenses you can think of, and even bonus feats!
AMF on an arrow is......BBEG caster death. You don't even need to hit him, just put it near him while your melee group member charges in. There are some other real nice things too that are fun. Any one have suggestions for what else is great to put on this?
Spell Critical is pretty much sub-optimal usually, unless you can think of awesome spells to proc off it that somehow wouldn't be worth casting on their own...it'd be interesting to see what spells might be worth it. Any thoughts?
Lack of Armor is really not an issue, especially later on when your Dex is so high that armor would just lower your AC. I'm also predicting Greater Mage Armor for Ultimate Magic....but we will see. I just thought I would put that there since it's really the only Cons aside from simply being a little behind a wizard in casting progression.
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10
+18 BAB
+16 Caster Levels (CL 19 easily enough with traits and ioun stone...any way to get one more that people know of?)
+Natural Armor boost
+Strength boost by +4
+Sorc Draconic bloodline stuff to 8th level
+Cha to saves (awesome)
+Nice HD overall
+Spontaneous casting of good spell list
+Access to Paladin spell completion items
+Spell critical shenanigans
+4 bonus feats
+Bite attack at full BAB with 1.5 Str modifier
+Detect Evil
+Smite Evil 1/day for nice damage boost
+Lay on Hands for minor healing (situationally nice to stop bleed effects etc.)
-Casting in armor an issue
-No ninth level spells : (
I'm going to post and explain this here Sylvanite just to save everyone time and copy/paste trouble:
14 Strength 10 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 7 Cha
A dwarf can actually use this build with the following stats: str 14 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 9 Cha 5.
Level Boosts -- Intelligence every time
Trait -- Magical Knack
Patron -- Strength
Witch 1 -- Evil Eye, Toughness
Fighter 1 -- Arcane Strike
Witch 2 -- Misfortune, Power Attack
Witch 3
Witch 4 -- Cackle, Still Spell
Witch 5
Witch 6 -- Flight, Combat Casting
Eldritch Knight 1 -- Weapon Focus
Eldritch Knight 2 -- Focused Spell
Eldritch Knight 3
Eldritch Knight 4 -- Ability Focus(evil Eye)
Eldritch Knight 5 -- Weapon Specialization
Witch 7 -- Persistent Spell
Witch 8 -- Fortune
Eldritch Knight 7 -- Quicken Spell
Eldritch Knight 8
Eldritch Knight 9 -- Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Familiar
Eldritch Knight 10
Fighter 1 -- Greater weapon Specialization
Here's how this works -- At levels 1~7 you do pretty much just what a cleric will do. You heal, Debuff, and support with heavy hits when needed. Mage armor and a Buckler will comprise your defense -- with the buckler becoming mithral as soon as possible. Arcane Strike and power attack supplement your Strength and the use of your first level patron spell (divine favor) keep you dealing good damage for a quite a while honestly (divine favor will level up at level 6 and 9, power attack at level 7 and 11, arcane strike at level 5, 10 -- this gives you extra damage at level 2 of +1, level 3 of +3, level 5 of +4, level 6 of +7, level 7 of +9, level 9 of +10, level 10 of +11, and level 11 of +13 before anything else assuming a one handed weapon). Spells will consist of light buffing and no save debuffs for a while, and Evil Eye or Misfortune. Just watch and see what the party needs at the moment -- if the fighter just needs the monster debuffed a bit hit it with a debuff -- if the rogue needs you to step up to flank, then do so. If someone drops cover them while they get back up.
Starting at level 4 you want to be in Full Plate as soon as possible. At these levels a choice of using a shield or not is completely up to you -- though I do like animated shields still. You are going to sink most of your wealth in keeping that Intelligence up, but don't worry too much about your weapon until you take weapon focus -- since you have greater magical weapon you can generally have what you need from party cast offs. Long term buffs are your friends -- false life for example starting at level 10 and until you can afford high end duel/triple stat boosting magical items for physical stats you have no reason to not cast threefold aspect since it will give you a day long +2 to Dex and +2 to Con for a -2 to Wis. Also when you get to them use the area of effect debuffs -- I would suggest with a metamagic rod of either focus spell or persistent spell to get the best effect. As you gain levels you'll become more proficient in both debuffing and killing in melee -- as spells like divine power open up to you (at 14th level in this build).
About the familiar -- The familiar has your BAB and uses your base saves and has 1/2 your HP -- a standard witch would have 80 HP at level twenty (before bonus points) giving the familiar 40 HP. This build has 108 (before bonuses) giving the familiar 54 before you account for your Con bonus, Threefold Aspect, or Toughness (which at level will give you a total of 40 more HP -- 80 more at level 20).
A word on how to use Spell Critical. You should never cast a quickened spell before you full attack -- if you are planning to quicken a spell full attack first -- if you get a critical hit don't cast your prepared quicken spell, instead use spell critical to cast something else. If you don't critical hit then use the spell you have prepared as a quickened spell.
At lower levels don't be afraid of preparing some of the low level SoS spells -- after hitting something with Evil Eye you will have about the same success chance as you would have had with a higher level spell and you should be fine with your DC.
Persistent spell will generally increase your success rate with spells by another 40% over your original success rate, and I highly recommend either a metamagic rod of quicken spell or Persistent spell to use after you Evil Eye something so that you get maximum effect right away in the case the target saves.
Thanks, Abe. Very cool build.
Just to put it in quick form:
Witch 1/Fighter 1/Witch +5/Eldritch Knight 5/Witch +2/Eldritch Knight +5/Fighter +1
Very interesting. 9th level spells, 16 BAB. Healing, debuffs, 20 CL easily with Magical Knack and Ioun Stone. Good versatiliy.
Cool build.
Here's a fighter/mage/rogue build I've been kicking around:
Rogue3/sorceror1/Paladin2/DD4/Arcane Trickster6/EK4
Base attack 14
Caster Level 13
5d6 sneak attack
Divine Grace
Smite Evil
Weapon SpecializationAnd most importantly - "Tricky Spells (Su): Starting at 5th level, an arcane trickster can cast her spells without their somatic or
verbal components, as if using the Still Spell and Silent
Spell feats. Spells cast using this ability do not increase in
spell level or casting time. She can use this ability 3 times
per day at 5th level..."
I've been bouncing on something similiar recently but I went a bit of a different route with it:
Wizard 4/Rogue 1/ Assassin 1/ Arcane trickster 10/Arcane Archer 4.
One of the only way I like the arcane archer -- because with this I can imbue the arrow, sneak attack with it, the fireball in it, and the Wail of the Banshee I imbued the arrow with. BAB still hurts though, only +11.
Another choice on the same lines would be:
Sandman bard 5, rogue 1, arcane trickster 10, arcane archer 4.
This time you come out a bit better on BAB with +12, armor, and much better saves, though you lose the ninth level spells.
Closer to what we were originally looking for:
Arcane Duelist Bard 8, AA 2, EK 10 would have BAB 18 and only lose 2 caster levels -- just a variant rift off of what was above -- this build is exciting since it cuts the fighter level out and gives you arcane strike and combat casting for free -- if you want a switch hitter build this would probably be it though the following works too:
Arcane Duelist bard 6/ DD 4/ AA 1/ EK 10 BAB 18 here too.
Some Keynotes of mine when dealing with the eldritch knight:
Arcane archer gives martial weapon proficiencies as well as armor proficiencies -- so medium BAB classes can usually use it as a dip to get into EK -- or those not wanting to max out EK (for example a wizard 12 AA 3 EK 5 -- which by the way has BAB 14 caster level 18).
Magus when it comes out is literally set up for going into EK.
Witch and wizard can generally be transposed with each other in just about any build.
Fighter 3(weapon master archtype: Ray) can do some spectacular things with rays -- if you don't mind never getting 9th level spells.
Summoners can actually do well with some dips due to the boon companion feat:
Summoner 8/ AA 4/Summoner 8
Summoner 8/ paladin 2/ EK 2/ Summoner 8
Summoner 6/ paladin 2/ AA 2/ Summoner 10
Summoner 8/ DD 4/ Summoner 8
Summoner "x"/ Barbarian 4/ Summoner "x"
Summoner 3/ Barbarian 2/ DD 2/ Summoner 13
Summoner 7/ barbarian 2/ EK 2/ Summoner 9
Summoner 6/ Barbarian 2/ AA 2/ Summoner 10
Generally you give up 1~3 caster levels for a 16 BAB and some extra abilities. The last ones take the ferocious mount rage power to give the eidolon rage when the summoner is mounted on it and raging -- though it eats up the rage rounds quickly. For specific builds such as a summoner mounted using spirited charge and a lance with a pouncing eidolon this can be really nasty.
Eidolons don't really gain much going from 19th level to 20th level so if you don't mind having a slightly weaker eidolon then any of the above could include an extra level in one of the classes involved -- though doing so generally doesn't get you much in the way of additional power.
Abe: Arcane Duelist bard 6/ DD 4/ AA 1/ EK 10 .
That's 21 levels and I'm not sure why AA is in there. Is that 1 level of AA meant to be deleted?
I like that Sniper-esque builds, but I think their BAB is just too low to qualify for the idea of a Warrior Mage.
That said...
Rogue3/sorceror1/Paladin2/DD4/Arcane Trickster6/EK4
Might work better as:
Rogue 3/Sorceror 1/Paladin 2/Dragon Disciple 4/Arcane Trickster 6/Arcane Archer 4
That gets you Sneak attack on Imbue Arrow without losing anything real special. Lets you function at range pretty well.
@Abe: You mention weapon master (ray)...their abilities don't scale without continuing along with Fighter levels, so what do they get you? Or am I wrong and somehow those abilities scale even if you don't stay in Fighter? I don't think it's that way....
Also, where is Boon Companion from?
Awesome Summoner stuff, and to think I had heard it should never take levels with anything else....
Nope it's supposed to have one less level of bard actually -- AA is specifically needed to get the martial weapon proficiencies to get into EK.
The "sniper" builds only really work when you do the following:
because with this I can imbue the arrow, sneak attack with it, the fireball in it, and the Wail of the Banshee I imbued the arrow with.
Followed up with a quickened spell for more sneak attack damage.
You've got the arrow doing sneak attack damage (7d6+1d8+whatever) then a fireball dealing sneak attack damage (17d6) then the wail of the banshee dealing sneak attack damage (200+7d6) then a intensified quickened fireball (just for S&G's) for another 22d6 damage
So everyone within 30 feet of the target takes 200+66d6 damage and the target takes an additional 7d6+arrow damage.
Basically you are sniping -- like a Predator Drone -- which only works if you hit AT 10.
Weapon master(ray) doesn't scale -- but they can take dueling gloves to increase that bonus to +3 instead of +1, and are ripe for greater weapon specialization(ray), and point blank mastery(ray) -- combined with Reach spell which turns just about any touch spell into a ray and an elemental admixture wizard with a single elemental spell metamagic feat (which he can then turn into any other element) if the spell requires a touch and deals damage you can set it to what you want.
Over all it's more of an oddity, but you can add 8 to the damage of any ray between greater weapon specialization, weapon training (same name, different effect) with the dueling gloves, and point blank shot. You qualify for point blank mastery(ray), and have more fighter levels for critical hit feats which with improved critical(ray) could lead to interesting situations. I know there is at least one spell now that deals actual ability damage (calcific touch) that would combined nicely with reach spell.
How do you imbue two spells in one arrow?
Judging by your use of Fireball instead of something else I'm guessing you are going with Spell Storing arrows? I might be wrong, but if that's the case those don't work on ranged weapons....unless you can convince your DM that arrows are not ranged weapons, can be used to stab people, and thus should be enhanceable as melee...
Last I heard, Summoner does not benefit from Boon Companion, otherwise I would heartily endorse all of Abraham's options.
Even so, a 4 level dip into summoner can give you a wand monkey (literally) so if you go Summoner 4/Fighter 1/ DD 8/ EK 7 you can still get
+6th level spells (early entry spells for summoner too)
+17 BAB
+haste at 4th level
+quickened spell level 1-4 (wand monkey w/ quick draw)
+str, con, and int bonuses
+cha not needed as badly, a base 16 would do as most of the summoner list doesn't require save DCs especially if you stick to early entry summons for meatshields while you use a polearm, or stuff like black tentacles (no save) and really fun stuff like simulacrum.
-light armor only
-limited spells
Of course, Summoner 4/Pal 2/DD 4/EK 10 isn't bad either.
How do you imbue two spells in one arrow?
Judging by your use of Fireball instead of something else I'm guessing you are going with Spell Storing arrows? I might be wrong, but if that's the case those don't work on ranged weapons....unless you can convince your DM that arrows are not ranged weapons, can be used to stab people, and thus should be enhanceable as melee...
Actually I had never even noticed that spell storing was melee only... don't know why just didn't -- which would of course causes the whole build to fall a part.
EDIT:
Ok so here's something I didn't include in the Witch builds earlier to make up for my mistake above --
Conductive weapon enhancement:
Fey Sorcerer can use it to channel Laughing Touch and get an attack in while doing so. Infernal can use it to get an attack with Corrupting Touch, and Undead Sorcerers can use Grave Touch with one.
Illusion wizards can use blinding ray with a bow on it (good for AA builds possibly), Enchantment can use dazing touch with it.
Any of the bloodlines or schools with melee or ranged touch attacks can use it basically -- which means not the witch unfortunately.
As a side note Alchemist can use it with bombs through a weapon.
Conductive Weapon sounds like a really good option at lower levels for some interesting attacks with Gish types. Nice suggestion!
So does Boon Companion (which I still do not know where it is from) work with summoner or no? Cause that will matter for when I compile these builds as it severely limits some of the summoner ideas.
@Oterisk: Would it really be worth it to go with those couple of Summoner Builds over Sorcerer levels in place of summoner? It seems like all you really get is a few early entry spells (granted, at lower levels the early entry Haste is AWESOME), and an Eidolon that can hold Wands for you. But in the end you lose 7th and 8th level spells from a Sorc version.
I'm not sold its a worthy tradeoff as a whole build, but maybe in a game you know is only going to a certain level it might work better? Let me know, as I am by no means the expert here. Just trying to compile the info.
Boon Companion is from seeker of secrets (#16).
Summoner wasn't out yet when that book came out -- and I realize that the feat only says "Animal companions or Familiars" now: I forgot that the wording was like that. Which puts using it strictly into the houserule or "ask the GM" area (my group would allow/ does use it) unfortunately.