I've been thinking about Archtypes (I wonder why?) and I have two questions regarding them which don't seem to be answered by the APG.
The first is; Can prestige classes have archtypes? I don't really see why not and the only section that talks about "core class archtypes" is the one listing them.
Second thing; If you have an archtype that replaces a class feature, let's say sneak attack, and instead gives 1/day +5 to a skill, increasing uses each time sneak attack would gain dice. (This is just a random example, I literally just made it up.) If you then prestige into a class that gives you sneak attack could you make a note in the archtype that carries the replaced ability into a prestige class? Or are they pretty much out of luck and just start getting sneak attack.
Heck, should we even worry about prestige classes when thinking about archtypes?
Deep down I know that won't be enough for many people on here though lol.
My thoughts too. I could just ignore them, but it doesn't seem very Superstar to not take them into account.
Archetypes is just a different way to look at an existing class for you are trading in one benefit for another but overall it is still the same class.
Prestige classes are detours you can take with your class with new abilities and extensions to existing abilities. So to use your example if a prestige class gave you a +1d6 sneak attack, if your class replaced sneak attack with 1/day +5 to a skill, it would actually carry over to the prestige class therefore giving your character another chance to add +5 to a skill.
Hope this helps.
Is there somewhere in the APG that points this out and I just missed it? I didn't get this impression from just reading the intro section regarding archtypes.
Not trying to argue, just looking for as much info as possible.
Page 72 of the APG right under core classes, I might of worded it a bit differently but it says what a archetype is. As for prestige classes, page 374 in the core book explains those for you and what they are in the first paragraph. I worded it as detour because that basically is what it is. A detour of your existing class, or you could say an extension, for you have to meet the requirements before you can go into a prestige class.
So it is all in how I worded it. Was trying to make my explanation understandable and may have just made it worse. Sorry.
Under archetype on page 72 in the middle of the first paragraph, I quote “The fighter class, for example, might easily be sculpted into a dead-eye archer, a fleet-footed duelist, a stealthy jungle hunter, or countless other types of martial masters, all refined by a player’s choice of details, class options, and specific rules.”
Under Arcane Trickster to use a example "If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack." If you look at Arcane Trickster requirements, special: sneak attack +2d6. So it doesn’t come right out and say it but I did do some interpreting.
Hope this explains it a bit better.
Dedicated Voter Season 6
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As in Notelek's Arcane Trickster example...
I'd say that the requirement to gain the PrC is to have +2d6 sneak attack.
If you have an archetype that replaces sneak attack with something else, then you won't qualify for Arcane Trickster, so the original question is moot.
Unless you create an archetype that has a requirement of +10 class bonus to a particular skill in lieu of the +2d6 sneak attack requirement, that is...
As in Notelek's Arcane Trickster example...
I'd say that the requirement to gain the PrC is to have +2d6 sneak attack.
If you have an archetype that replaces sneak attack with something else, then you won't qualify for Arcane Trickster, so the original question is moot.
Unless you create an archetype that has a requirement of +10 class bonus to a particular skill in lieu of the +2d6 sneak attack requirement, that is...
I know Arcane Trickster and Shadowdancer require sneak attack for you to prestige into them, which is exactly why I didn't use them as an example. I just used sneak attack as an example because it is a common class ability that exists in a base class and is continued in a prestige class.
Does anyone remember when paladin and ranger were archetypes of fighters? Druids as archetypes of clerics? Assassins as archetypes of thief or illusionists of magic-users?
Sorry grognard moment :)
I believe we both understood that Scipion del Ferro. I used Arcane Trickster as a basis for my analysis and Andrew expanded on that with his comment.
That being said I would most likely add the note, for upon further review I did notice a few prestige classes that would have Sneak Attack as a feature and not a requirement thereby giving a person the Sneak Attack ability after taking the prestige class.
Yes Curaigh, way back in 2nd edition if I recall. Man I don't miss thaco...
I believe we both understood that Scipion del Ferro. I used Arcane Trickster as a basis for my analysis and Andrew expanded on that with his comment.
That being said I would most likely add the note, for upon further review I did notice a few prestige classes that would have Sneak Attack as a feature and not a requirement thereby giving a person the Sneak Attack ability after taking the prestige class.
Exactly, like assassin. Which is why I was wondering what would happen, or is a possibility. With archtypes being so new, I don't feel too bad about bringing up corner cases. Especially when we're all going to be testing the limits of this new feature.
The thing to remember is that prestige classes do have requirements to get them. So even though Assassin doesn't require sneak attack to obtain the prestige class it does require one to have an alignment that is evil.
Also an Assassin who doesn't get sneak attack damage wouldn't exactly be an assassin anymore now would he for he would lose a few of his other abilities that rely on that specific feature.
I know this is just an example but it is something to consider for like I said earlier, prestige classes are just detours a class takes.
Here is another way to look at it.
Archetypes and classes are tied together. Burglar and Rogue are connected or tied to each other and are basically the same class with the same skill set.
Whereas prestige class isn't tied to a specific class, for as long as I meet the requirements of the prestige class I can take it. So a wizard could take the assassin prestige class if he met all the requirements which are easy enough to do even as a wizard.
Do you follow me on this?
Thank you :)
I'd still like to see a little bit more clarification regarding their interactions, or if you can even make an archtype for a prestige, or like I said "Do we need to even worry about them?"
I suppose it will all come in due time.
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I know Arcane Trickster and Shadowdancer require sneak attack for you to prestige into them, which is exactly why I didn't use them as an example. I just used sneak attack as an example because it is a common class ability that exists in a base class and is continued in a prestige class.
Shadowdancer doesn't require sneak attack...
To qualify to become a shadowdancer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Stealth 5 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility.
Shadowdancer doesn't require sneak attack...
Ha, that's what I get for posting without double checking.
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
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Of course the developers would have to chime in on whether it is verboten or not...
But I would imagine you could create an archetype for a prestige class that would follow up an archetype for a base class.
But my personal opinion is, that you shouldn't. Archetypes in my mind are refining tools for base classes to make them more in line with what type of character you want to role play.
Prestige classes already are extremely steeped in their own mythos, and to change that could significantly change the entire concept of what the prestige class is supposed to be.
So my opinion is, as a GM, even if the developers of Paizo allowed it, I wouldn't in my game.
I'll point out that the APG says on page 72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
Thus, if you swap out sneak attack, you no longer meet the "+2d6 sneak attack" prerequisite for a prestige class.
Your GM can hand-wave this, of course.
[edited to add the crucial word "not"]
I'll point out that the APG says on page 72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does *not* count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
Thus, if you swap out sneak attack, you no longer meet the "+2d6 sneak attack" prerequisite for a prestige class.
Your GM can hand-wave this, of course.
;)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'll point out that the APG says on page 72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
Thus, if you swap out sneak attack, you no longer meet the "+2d6 sneak attack" prerequisite for a prestige class.
Your GM can hand-wave this, of course.
Fixed missing word. :)
EDIT: Ninja'd
I'll point out that the APG says on page 72: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites."
Thus, if you swap out sneak attack, you no longer meet the "+2d6 sneak attack" prerequisite for a prestige class.
Your GM can hand-wave this, of course.
I kind of figured that, it was why I made sure not to mention a prestige that required SA as a prerequisite. I was more curious what would happen if you took an archtype that replaced a class feature and your prestige classes added onto that class feature. Either in damage dice, uses per day, spell levels, etc. Also, if prestige classes could have archtypes.
ie.
Skill Burst (ex): Once per day, a skill rogue may add a +5 insight bonus to a class skill as a swift action before rolling to determine the outcome. Whenever a skill rogue would gain +1d6 sneak attack damage they instead gain an additional daily use of skill burst. This applies to sneak attack damage gained from prestige classes.
Just to reiterate, I'm not talking about something I plan on submitting, this is completely mocked up just for discussing archtypes.
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Meh, I was retyping it by hand after the Paizo holiday party, talking with the Mrs about what a fun time we had. One little word can't change the meaning of a sentence, right? Right...?
I kind of figured that, it was why I made sure not to mention a prestige that required SA as a prerequisite. I was more curious what would happen if you took an archtype that replaced a class feature and your prestige classes added onto that class feature. Either in damage dice, uses per day, spell levels, etc. Also, if prestige classes could have archtypes.
The default should probably be "no," at least for the official rules. The pclass' ability gives you X, it doesn't give "X or its equivalent." Take the assassin, for example... the class gives sneak attack, doesn't require sneak attack to get it... is it more thematically appropriate for the assassin class to give sneak attack, or to add to the Perform (banjo) skill bonusy that the "redneck rogue" gets instead of sneak attack?
As for whether a pclass can have an archetype, I suppose they can. But I predict R2 of RPG Superstar 2011 won't be about prestige class archetypes....
Awesome!
Yes Curaigh, way back in 2nd edition if I recall. Man I don't miss thaco...
Dibs on naming my villain Thaco!!!!
;-)
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My default answer would be "no". The archtypes are kind of akin to roles that a character falls into with within their base class. Prestige classes serve the same type function, but are generally more narrow in scope, being fairly specific. They just don't really lend themselves to archtypes, in my (rarely humble) opinion.
This is the round that I'm most looking forward to. Whether I enter or not. I was super excited by the introduction of Archetypes to Pathfinder (I'm so over Prestige Classes). I'm even more excited to see fan-built ones that we don't yet have.
YAY!
WHEE!
etc.
Dibs on naming my villain Thaco!!!!;-)
For SURE that guarantees that everyone wants to kill him, regardless of how or even whether he earned his evildoer cape. All the old-schoolers will be fighting over who gets the death blow to that guy!
man, you would get disqualified for miss spelling. Its Thac0, not Thaco...lol
technically you could have several villains with slight differences in their names;
Thac-0
Thac-1
Thac-2
lol
Meh, I was retyping it by hand after the Paizo holiday party, talking with the Mrs about what a fun time we had. One little word can't change the meaning of a sentence, right? Right...?
I kind of figured that, it was why I made sure not to mention a prestige that required SA as a prerequisite. I was more curious what would happen if you took an archtype that replaced a class feature and your prestige classes added onto that class feature. Either in damage dice, uses per day, spell levels, etc. Also, if prestige classes could have archtypes.The default should probably be "no," at least for the official rules. The pclass' ability gives you X, it doesn't give "X or its equivalent." Take the assassin, for example... the class gives sneak attack, doesn't require sneak attack to get it... is it more thematically appropriate for the assassin class to give sneak attack, or to add to the Perform (banjo) skill bonusy that the "redneck rogue" gets instead of sneak attack?
As for whether a pclass can have an archetype, I suppose they can. But I predict R2 of RPG Superstar 2011 won't be about prestige class archetypes....
Does this mean that the Master Chymist prestige class doesn't advance a Vivisectionist alchemist's sneak attack?