First off, yes, I know the greatsword is better. Martial weapons, 2d6 vs 1d10 which makes more than up for the slightly increased crit range of the elven blade.
Yes, you can use weapon finesse with the curved blade, but really, who uses two handed weapons and then wants to add dex instead of str?
So yes, I know that in pretty much all aspects the greatsword is better.
I did the math and that says that the Greatsword has an average damage of 7.7 vs 6.325 on the curved blade.
However that's without power attack or any other feats, str bonus, class abilities and everything else, just the plain basedamage.
I want to make an half-elf barbarian (maybe not the best race for that, but I like half-elfs), and I like the idea of her using that blade instead of the lame old greatsword that everyone uses.
So I wondered if anyone can tell me if there's alot of difference at later levels and after feats etc?
If with the one I do 50 damage and with the other 49 then it doesn't really matter I guess, but if the gap gets larger the higher the boni get and I just do 40 or so, then it would probably be better to just stick with a greatsword.
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Personally, I say go for whatever works for the flavor of your character. Why settle for a cookie cutter barbarian? If you wanted that you would have run with a half orc. As a half elf barbarian I can see more of a... not really graceful force of destruction (elegant barbarian?) but more of a brutal but almost spectral force moving among the wilds with inhumanly quick speed and leaving only corpses in the wake.
Just my take on things. Make what you want, play as you wish and do not worry about min-maxing.
At later levels with bonuses (level 4-5 or so up), the Elven Curved Sword is indeed better than the greatsword. Math has already been done showing that at some point around those levels, the Falchion surpasses the greatesword, and the Elven Curved Blade is slightly stronger than the Falchion.
I'll note the +1 average damage the ECB gets over the Falchion usually isn't worth a feat (unless you intend to finesse it, or are an elf and have it as a martial weapon,) however, for a specific concept it's definitely workable regardless.
+1
he is indeed right, the ECB will be better after about lvl 4, so mathematicly there really is no problem using it for a barbarian.
Ok thanks. I have to say I didn't expect it to be better than the greatsword at some point, and I can't really see why it is right now. No need to really explain, I guess i'll just search for that falchion math you mentioned if I really want to know.
Guess it does have to do with the 18-20 range and that at some point you just crit alot?
Hm, ok, I think I see why it could be, and the flaw in my own math, would have to recheck, but I'm too lazy now :)
Well either way, I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get to be a complete disaster, which it apperently won't be.
I don't mind slight disadvantages compared to the "optimal" build, but I don't want to deliberatly gimp myself in the ground to a point where I become useless.
As for the feat, I plan to use the Alternate Race traits that trades Skill Focus for an Exotic Weapon Prof, so it's not really that much of a loss.
I'll also note you'd be totally justified in asking your GM to swap the half-elven bonus skill focus for the Elven Curve Blade proficiency (elven heritage and all that.)
He'd be equally justified to shoot it down lol, but no harm in trying if you don't want the skill focus.
This is one of the racial variants in the Advanced Player's Guide. Just FYI.
Edit: Which I see the OP has already figured out!
I assumed as much when I read the last paragraph of his last post lol, but thanks for pointing it out anyway. I only just bought my APG a few days ago and I'm still learning it.This is one of the racial variants in the Advanced Player's Guide. Just FYI.I'll also note you'd be totally justified in asking your GM to swap the half-elven bonus skill focus for the Elven Curve Blade proficiency (elven heritage and all that.)
He'd be equally justified to shoot it down lol, but no harm in trying if you don't want the skill focus.
Yeah, he ninja'd me. :)
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My barbarian princess runs around and fights with 2 daggers.
I think it's a little sad that people predominantly look at the weapon stats and decide to pick the one with the highest DPR. It's enough to have good damage, you rarely need to squeeze out every droplet.
Still, it does annoy me a little how the scimitar displaces the longsword and the falchion the greatsword around 5th level or so.
But unless you make all weapons have the exact same stats, how do you want to prevent that there are "best weapons" for certain classes?
for what it's worth, I have an Elven Eldritch Knight, Str14/Dex18 and she Finesses her Curved Blade pretty effectively.
Go with what fits your character and what doesn't make you cringe. :D
GNOME
True :) it's kind of a perk.
But even with that, the party also has a ECB Wielding Dragon Disciple. It cost him a feat, but it was great fodder for developing a backstory for his PC. My Buddy is a relative novice to gaming (sure some console, but not any real (lol) gaming) so we used his choice of ECB to tie our characters together. His ancestor, a Gold Dragon, called in a favor from some of his elven allies of old and asked them to help teach his great^4 Grandson how to wield his magical talents. It was during his time with the elves that our characters met :)
GNOME
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You might have your GM look at Dervish Dance, a feat from the Qadira supplement. It allows you to Finesse your Scimitar and use your Dex for damage instead of Str when using said Scimitar.
I see no reason why that feat should be limited to one weapon (especially one that is mathematically superior to all other one handed martial weapons). My own GM has approved a version of that feat for the Aldori Dueling Sword.
Although, now that I'm thinking about it, without a change to Rage increasing your Dex instead of Str, it would be pretty worthless. Perhaps a heftier AC penalty when Raging that offset, partially or completely, the bonus to AC given by increased Dex when Raging. For you, it would be less of a Rage and more like the Dervish Dance mode a 3.5 Dervish PrC could go into. It would be a lot of house ruling and make something vastly different from a normal Barb (and probably your concept) but I'm putting it out there.
Back in 3.5, the Races of the Wild supplement from WotC had an elf-only prestige class called the Wildrunner. Basically is was a form of Barbarian, but instead of a Str-boost when raging one got instead a Dex-boost. (Also some other stuff which was less interesting to me.)
Anyone got a link to the falchion vs. Greatsword topic? I'd like to read that but can't seem to find it.
You might have your GM look at Dervish Dance, a feat from the Qadira supplement. It allows you to Finesse your Scimitar and use your Dex for damage instead of Str when using said Scimitar.
That direction might make for an interesting concept anyway - it would seem more fitting to elves (and half-elves) to be a blade-whirling storm of death instead of a rip-em-apart steroid muscle style berserker (IMO, of course). But by replacing the STR increase with a DEX increase, this would negate the AC penalty, so some other penalty might be called for - maybe STR, but this might be moot if the to-hit AND damage are DEX dependent anyway. CON? Would be fitting for an elf, but would make it probably unplayable - less hit points in a berserk rage.
(The half-elf thing reminds me of a NPC in an old Greyhawk supplement, a half-elven ranger/cleric (IIRC) with three longswords - one was a dancing sword. I think she had another item allowing her to cast mirror image, thus her nickname "Bladestorm" - imagine someone fighting with two longswords, and then letting one fight on its own and drawing yet another one, and all this three- or fourfold)
Stefan
I had an elven paladin with an Elven Curved Blade... He just kept Critting... was kind of awesome. He also died and went for reincarnation.
(this character replaced another one that died, and i was restricted to elven characters because of location)
I rolled and came back as an elf.
was kinda lol.
Anyone got a link to the falchion vs. Greatsword topic? I'd like to read that but can't seem to find it.
No, but I can give you the short form.
A 19-20/x2 crit is 10% increase in average damage(assuming that a 19 hits normally).
A 18-20/x2 crit is a 15% increase in average damage(if 18 hits).
A 17-20/x2 crit is a 20% increase in average damage(if 17 hits).
A 15-20/x2 crit is a 30% increase in average damage(if 16 hits).
To simplify the math, assuming that all attacks hit on a 10+. DM is your total + to damage.
Greatsword, Base damage 7, 19-20/x2 -> 7.7 + 1.1 x DM damage per hit
Falchion, Base damage 5, 18-20/x2 -> 5.75 + 1.15 x DM damage per hit
Keen Greatsword, Base damage 7, 17-20/x2 -> 8.4 + 1.2 x DM damage per hit
Keen Falchion, Base damage 5, 15-20/x2 -> 6.5 + 1.3 DM damage per hit
Now take a level 4 fighter using power attack(+6 damage) with an 20 strength(+7 damage), weapon specialization(+2 damage), and a +1 weapon. That is a +16 to damage.
Greatsword, Damage 7.7 + 16 x 1.1 -> 25.3 damage per hit
Falchion, Damage 575 + 16 x 1.15 -> 24.15 damage per hit
Keen Greatsword, Damage 7 + 16 x 1.2 -> 27.6 damage per hit
Keen Falchion, Damage 5 + 16 x 1.3 -> 27.3 damage per hit
Notice that the keen falchion has caught up to the keen greatsword on damage. Essentially, the falcion starts 2 points behind the greatsword, but it gains damage faster from other bonuses because of the higher crit rate. Once you get enough +damage, the falchion takes the lead, and is a superior weapon.
By the time you get to level 8 and can take improved crit(which replaces keen). Most serious melee types will have +25 or more to damage. At that point, falchion >> greatsword.
Thanks a lot!
I know this is sort of old news, but I stumbled on this thread just now and figured you guys would enjoy my input. I developed a formula for determining average damage per attack.
a = average damage
b = attack bonus
c = target's ac
d = crit range (.05 for 20, .1 for 19-20, .15 for 18-20, ETC.)
e = crit multiplier
f = weapon damage (ex; 7 for 2d6)
g = damage bonus
h = attack bonus to confirm crits
a=(((b+21)-c)/20)-d)(e+f)+de(((h+21)-c)/20)(e+f)
If you graph the two with x being damage bonus and y being avg damage, they intersect at x=29.16667. That's with a 95% hit chance. Beyond that, ecb is better. Before then, greatsword all the way.
I'll also note you'd be totally justified in asking your GM to swap the half-elven bonus skill focus for the Elven Curve Blade proficiency (elven heritage and all that.)
He'd be equally justified to shoot it down lol, but no harm in trying if you don't want the skill focus.
You don't really need to even ask... there is an alternate racial trait that has been in the game for at least a couple years:
Ancestral Arms Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
If you replace the ecb with the falcata, the intersection jumps down to 20.5. Crit determines slope and the falcata has the best crit of ANY weapon.
Correcting myself: a=(g+f)(((b+21)-c)/20)-d)+de(((h+21)-c)/20)+d(1-((h+21)-c)/20)
Ok thanks. I have to say I didn't expect it to be better than the greatsword at some point, and I can't really see why it is right now. No need to really explain, I guess i'll just search for that falchion math you mentioned if I really want to know.
Guess it does have to do with the 18-20 range and that at some point you just crit alot?
Just as soon as you make it keen, it leaps ahead. Basically the greater threat range adds up to 30% more damage. Once you factor in strength-and-a-half and Power Attack/Furious Focus, and that makes a BIG difference.
Just as soon as you make it keen, it leaps ahead. Basically the greater threat range adds up to 30% more damage. Once you factor in strength-and-a-half and Power Attack/Furious Focus, and that makes a BIG difference.Ok thanks. I have to say I didn't expect it to be better than the greatsword at some point, and I can't really see why it is right now. No need to really explain, I guess i'll just search for that falchion math you mentioned if I really want to know.
Guess it does have to do with the 18-20 range and that at some point you just crit alot?
They intersect at 19 damage bonus and the falchion pulls ahead after that.
If you replace the ecb with the falcata, the intersection jumps down to 20.5. Crit determines slope and the falcata has the best crit of ANY weapon.
Indeed. 19-20/3x is just absolute bonkers for a 1-handed 1d8 weapon. Only made slightly worse is when you can increase the multiplier to x4 and keen/improve critical. Someone explain to me why I don't apparently see it used that often?
If you replace the ecb with the falcata, the intersection jumps down to 20.5. Crit determines slope and the falcata has the best crit of ANY weapon.Indeed. 19-20/3x is just absolute bonkers for a 1-handed 1d8 weapon. Only made slightly worse is when you can increase the multiplier to x4 and keen/improve critical. Someone explain to me why I don't apparently see it used that often?
Same reason you do not see scythes used so often either, the critical is great when it happens, but if you want critical effects (and there are many), the greater threat range gets more crits which gets more effects more often.
Yar!
Wow, thread necro!
I figured I should direct you to an old post of mine where I compared average damage of various weapons when used in a variety of different attack routines, including both the Greatsword and the Elven Curve Blade. I did base weapons at level 1, as well as several different attack routines at level 12.
LINK (level 12 with 5 different attack routines with over a dozen different weapons) and LINK (all those weapons plus lance at level 1)
~P
Same reason you do not see scythes used so often either, the critical is great when it happens, but if you want critical effects (and there are many), the greater threat range gets more crits which gets more effects more often.If you replace the ecb with the falcata, the intersection jumps down to 20.5. Crit determines slope and the falcata has the best crit of ANY weapon.Indeed. 19-20/3x is just absolute bonkers for a 1-handed 1d8 weapon. Only made slightly worse is when you can increase the multiplier to x4 and keen/improve critical. Someone explain to me why I don't apparently see it used that often?
With burst effects, this isn't true at all. The x4 crit and the 18-20/x2 crit are mathematically identical in all cases except for ones in which you must roll within your crit range just to hit your target, in which case x4 is better by a negligible amount. Since burst effects just add a d10 before crit is multiplied, at least with respect to averages, they remain identical. This is true of x3 and 19-20/x2 as well, they are just a step down from x4 and 18-20/x2, with x2 below all of it and 19-20/x3 above all of it. As a long term warrior, falcata's are OP. Period.
@BeowulfIam: I am pretty sure that what Dabbler mens by "critical effects", is the various critical feats. The adding of debuffs this way, seems to be quite popular.
@BeowulfIam: I am pretty sure that what Dabbler mens by "critical effects", is the various critical feats. The adding of debuffs this way, seems to be quite popular.
Ah, well if that is your build, then I agree that an 18-20/x2 crit is superior to a x4. Still, though, after improved crit/keen, I think losing the 10% chance of that (it's actually a little less than 10% depending on the enemy's AC and your attack bonus) is worth the extra multiplier to damage. That's more of an opinion than mathematical fact.
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If your going to go half-elf might as well get exotic for the falcata..
I have a barb 13th level with the following
str 24/30 raged
con 22/30 raged
+2 furious keen falcata
feats and rage powers involved:
Power attack
Raging brutality
Raging vitality
Reckless abandon
Witch hunter
Beast totem up too pounce
So for 4 rage points per round he can do the following
To hit: 13bab, 10str, 4weapon, 4reckless abandon, 2charge, -4power attack = +29/+24/+19
Damage: 15str, 12pa, 15con, 4weapon and possibly 4witch hunter
So +29/+24/+19 1d8+46 17/20x3 +50 vs creatures with sla/spells/etc..
at 13th level..
Crits are 3d8+108 or +120 witch hunter...
Im retiring him because the dm is tired of me charging and 1 rounding his bosses... Ntm with the bard in group theres almost always haste and +2circ hit/damage up as well...
With burst effects, this isn't true at all. The x4 crit and the 18-20/x2 crit are mathematically identical in all cases except for ones in which you must roll within your crit range just to hit your target, in which case x4 is better by a negligible amount. Since burst effects just add a d10 before crit is multiplied, at least with respect to averages, they remain identical. This is true of x3 and 19-20/x2 as well, they are just a step down from x4 and 18-20/x2, with x2 below all of it and 19-20/x3 above all of it. As a long term warrior, falcata's are OP. Period.Same reason you do not see scythes used so often either, the critical is great when it happens, but if you want critical effects (and there are many), the greater threat range gets more crits which gets more effects more often.If you replace the ecb with the falcata, the intersection jumps down to 20.5. Crit determines slope and the falcata has the best crit of ANY weapon.Indeed. 19-20/3x is just absolute bonkers for a 1-handed 1d8 weapon. Only made slightly worse is when you can increase the multiplier to x4 and keen/improve critical. Someone explain to me why I don't apparently see it used that often?
I'm not talking about critical damage, I'm talking about Critical feats. Bleeding Critical, Blinding Critical, Critical Disarm, Deafening Critical etc. all work on a critical hit. The higher the threat range, the more likely a critical hit, and the more likely you are to get the effect.
If you are planning on taking a critical-focussed fighter, a falchion, scimitar or rapier is preferable to a falcata or a scythe.
I always thought that the ECB might be a good weapon to use with Vital Strike on a finesse fighter.
I'm thinking about this with a Tengu I just started. We adjusted Rogue to have full BAB, so I'm going to alternate between the ECB and concealed weapons.
I'm not talking about critical damage, I'm talking about Critical feats. Bleeding Critical, Blinding Critical, Critical Disarm, Deafening Critical etc. all work on a critical hit. The higher the threat range, the more likely a critical hit, and the more likely you are to get the effect.If you are planning on taking a critical-focussed fighter, a falchion, scimitar or rapier is preferable to a falcata or a scythe.
Yes, I believe I covered that. I agree, for that specific build an 18-20/x2 is a better critical than a 19-20/x3. Even then, though, you crit less than 10% more often. Though, if you want damage, the falcata is still a better choice late game.
With a single exception. That is, if you want to go a full 20 levels of fighter or kensai, then 15-20/x3 is better than 17-20/x4.
...especially with auto-confirm on critical hits.
...especially with auto-confirm on critical hits.
Actually, you'd be surprised.
According to my formula, auto confirming crits just makes ((h+21)-c)/20=1 in all cases. This eliminates the third part of the equation since 1-1=0 and increases the additional average damage based on crits. This is justifiable by the fact that the last thing added in the equation represents the likelihood of rolling a critical and not confirming.
That being said, there's a curious relationship between 17-20/x4 and 15-20/x3.
When comparing two weapons that do the same amount of damage dice in damage, but with different criticals, there is always one of two relationships between the two. Either one has a superior crit and has a greater slope than the other, or they are exactly the same. A large greatsword and large greataxe are exactly the same with 3d6 and 19-20/x2 or x3.
17-20/x4 and 15-20/x3 have the exact same slope, which should mean that they are identical, but the y intercept, when graphed average damage versus damage bonus of the given attack, of the 15-20/x3 is about 2 damage higher than 17-20/x4. Interestingly, this creates two parallel lines. In order for the 17-20/x4 to be better than 15-20/x3, the weapon must deal at least an average of 2 higher than the weapon with 15-20/x3 to be better, but if it did, it would always be better no matter what.
I should also add that this is regardless of whether or not criticals are auto-confirmed. That actually does not affect which of the two is better.
Good point on auto-confirms. My point remains, though, that if you use a lot of conditions inflicted by critical hits, you want as wide a range as possible.
Good point on auto-confirms. My point remains, though, that if you use a lot of conditions inflicted by critical hits, you want as wide a range as possible.
Absolutely. I actually hadn't thought of it like that. My point lies solely with damage output alone.
Any way you look at it, though, the ECB is better than the greatsword if you're a warrior. Haha