Spells You Would Like To See In Ultimate Magic


Announcements and General Discussion

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Sound Lance

All the orb spells (lesser and greater included)

Chaos Burst (was from a 3PP called Wild Spellcraft and was a spell where everything like ranged, dmg type, and effects like lines, bursts, single targets, were all randomly rolled with d%)

There was another group of spells that made people do clumsy things. The lower level ones made them do minor stuff, but the higher level ones made them actually take damage from their clumsiness. Don't remember what the spell was called but was also from the Wild Spellcraft book. (Not sure if anything from it is OGL but a Paizo varient would be nice.)

Wind Armor was from a Mongoose book (also not sure if OGL) that added deflection bonuses to your AC, more vs ranged attacks.

Acid Armor was also from Mongoose that exploded when hit or something like that. Great for suicide bombing.

Ebon Eyes let you see through magical darkness.

What would the Paizo community like to see as new spells or would like to see reprinted (or Paizo's take on them if they aren't OGL and can't be reprinted)?

Liberty's Edge

All good ones, to add to the list though, I'd like to see revisions of...

Spoiler:
from the Ultimate Arcane Spellbook by Mongoose
0-Level: Conjurer's Toolbelt, Quill, Living Tattoo, Hear Me

1st Level: Lesser Foretelling

3rd Level: Combat Link

4th Level: Portents and Omens

5th Level: Foretelling, Timesight

7th Level: Darkest Knowing

9th Level: Greater Foretelling

As well as the Brand spells, Bind Guardian spells, and Echoing Call spells

from the Spell Compendium by WotC
0-Level: Caltrops

1st Level: Familiar Pocket

2nd Level: Baleful Transposition, Chain of Eyes, Blast of Force

3rd Level: Great Thunderclap

4th Level: Blast of Flame, Translocation Trick, Force Missiles, Thunderlance

5th Level: Arc of Lightning, Viscid Glob, Cyclonic Blast

6th Level: Dream Casting

7th Level: Glass Strike

8th Level: Greater Plane Shift

9th Level: Hindsight, Reality Maelstrom

Of course this is from a sorcerer/wizard point of view as those are what I prefer to play. I'm sure there are many great cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger spells out there that would make great spells for some of the new classes as well. I don't think the ones I've chosen here are horrific in the balance department, rather I feel they fill some of the gaps without crossing over into other classes specialties.


The lesser orb spells (and to a smaller extent all of them) are horrendously broken. They also pretty much kill any desire to ever learn a single evocation spell.

Reduce all of the damage dies to d4 and it would be acceptable balanced.


I hope never to see the orbs ever again. And even if an equivalent does get in, they must be evocation spells.


More polymorph spells. Like a Vermin Form series and a series that will let actually transform into a copy of another person (not just an illusion like Disguise Self).

See this thread for more Spells not in Pathfinder but should be.:


Seeking Ray was another good spell that i'd like to see redone.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
I hope never to see the orbs ever again. And even if an equivalent does get in, they must be evocation spells.

+1


Kaiyanwang wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
I hope never to see the orbs ever again. And even if an equivalent does get in, they must be evocation spells.
+1

+2


Wraithstrike, but for only a single attack.


a pathfinder version of this old spell:

Chromatic Orb
(Alteration - Evocation)
Level: 1
Range: 30 feet Components: V,S,M
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 1 segment
Area of Effect: One creature
Saving Throw: Special

The Chromatic Orb spell enables the caster to create a small globe of varying hue in his hand and hurl it at any opponent he desires. providing there are no barriers berween him and the target creature, and that the target creature is within 30 feet (the longest distance the Chromatic Orb can be hurled). It is magical, and even creatures normally struck only by +5. +4, etc, magic weapons will be affected by the Chromatic Orb if it strikes. Magic resistance prevents the spell's effects, of course. At 1 foot or closer, there is a +3 chance to-hit, at over 1 foot (0 2 feet there is a + 2 chance to strike the target, and from over 2 feet to the maximum 3 feet range the chance to-hit is only +1. If a Chromatic Orb misses a target, it dissipates without further effect.

The color of the globe determines its effect when a subject is struck. Low level casters are restricted as to what color orb they can bring into existence by means of this spell, although the hues below their level are always available should the choice be made to select a color not commensurate with level of experience. Colors and effects are shown on the table below.

Minimum Level of Caster Color of Orb Generated Hit Points of Damage Special Powers
1st Pearly 1-4 light (1)
2nd Ruby 1-6 heat (2)
3rd Flame 1-8 fire (3)
4th Amber 1-10 blindness (4)
5th Emerald 1-12 stinking cloud (5)
6th Turquoise 2-16 magnetism (6)
7th Sapphire 2-8 paralysis (7)
10th Amethyst (slow) petrification (8)
12th Ashen (paralysis) Death (9)

Notes on special powers:

1.Light equal to a Light spell will be generated and persist for 1 round/level of the caster, and any subject failing to save versus spell will he blinded for the duration.

2.Heat from the ruby Orb will melt up to 1 cubic yard of ice, and creatures not saving versus spell will suffer a loss of 1 point of Strength and 1 point of Dexterity (or -1 to-hit and AC) for 1 round following being struck by the Orb.

3.Fire from the Orb will set aflame all combustibles within a 1 foot radius of the target, and unless the target saves versus spell an additional 2 points of fire damage will be suffered (except when protected from fire by magical or natural means).

4.The target subject will suffer blindness for 5-8 rounds unless a successful saving throw versus spell is made (Cure Blindness or Dispel Magic negates this effect).

5.A magical stinking cloud of 50 ft. radius (around the target) is created when a successful hit is made, and the subject must save versus poison or else be helpless, and in any event will be helpless untill leaving the area of the vapores (cf Stinking Cloud spell).

6.The turquoise Orb inflicts electrical damage, and if the target is wearing ferrous metal it will be magnetized for 3-12 rounds unless a saving throw versus spell is successsful. Magnetized metal will stick fast to other magnetized metal items, and non-magnetized ferrous metal items will cling until pulled free.

7.Unless a saving throw versus paralyzation is made, the subject creature will be paralyzed for 5-20 rounds.

8.The subject creature will be turned into stone unless a saving throw versus petrification is made, and even if the save is made, the subject will be slowed for 2-8 rounds (cf Slow spell).

9.The subject creature will die unless a successful saving throw versus death magic is made. and even if a save is made, the subject will be paralyzed for 2-5 rounds.
The material component of the spell is a gem of the appropriate hue, or else a clear crystal one (such as a diamond). The gem can be as small (in value) as 50 gold pieces as long as its color is appropriate.

Used to be my favourite, hehe :p


I think I'm missing something. I can understand being against the lesser orbs (good enough that no one would take any of the other 1st lvl combat spells), but what's wrong with the regular and greater versions? (I'm just asking. Not wantingbto start an argument.) What if the orb spells didn't straight damage or their type with no added effect? Or maybe only an added effect if they crit?


Malagant wrote:

All good ones, to add to the list though, I'd like to see revisions of...

** spoiler omitted **

Of course this is from a sorcerer/wizard point of view as those are what I prefer to play. I'm sure there are many great cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger spells out there that would make great spells for some of the new classes as well. I don't think the ones I've chosen here are horrific in the balance department, rather I feel they fill some of the gaps without crossing over into other classes specialties.

Glass strike?! That sound cool. What did it do and what book was it out of?

Liberty's Edge

Umbral Reaver wrote:
I hope never to see the orbs ever again. And even if an equivalent does get in, they must be evocation spells.

I rather like the orb spells.


Fnipernackle wrote:


I think I'm missing something. I can understand being against the lesser orbs (good enough that no one would take any of the other 1st lvl combat spells), but what's wrong with the regular and greater versions? (I'm just asking. Not wantingbto start an argument.) What if the orb spells didn't straight damage or their type with no added effect? Or maybe only an added effect if they crit?
graywulfe wrote:


I rather like the orb spells.

The orb spells are plain better than other spells of the same level. They do not allow saves (for damage) and have no SR. They are conj spells not evoc spells. To top it off, they have additional effects besides damage. Compare a fireball to an Orb of Fire.

@7th level
Fireball: 7d6; refl[1] for 1/2: 20' burst
Pros: Multiple Targets
Cons: Save for Half plus SR

Orb of Fire: 7d6; fort or dazed; single target
Pros: No save v damage, dazed is a great condition, no SR, 15d6 max
Cons: Single target, touch* attack, 4th level

This is the best comparison you can hope for. Comparing orb of Cold to Cone of Cold or (snicker) Ice Storm

@9th level
Ice Strom: 5d6 in cylinder
Pros: Long range, Theoretical multiple opponents, no save
Cons: Non-scaling damage, crappy area, SR

Cone of Cold: 9d6; refl[1] for 1/2: Cone
Pros: Multiple targets, max 15d6
Cons: Save for Half, SR, Cone means short range, 5th level

Orb of Cold: 9d6; fort or blinded; single target
Pros: No save v damage, blinded is a good condition, no SR, max 15d6
Cons: Single target, touch* attack

There is no reason to ever use Cone of Cold or Ice Storm as Ord of Cold is flat out better than both.

To fix the orb spells:
Damage dice to d4. School to evoc. Remove force and sonic orb. Perhaps acid as well. These energy types are A) Less common for resistance and B) Have ramifications for things with hardness (IIRC: May not be in PF)

[1] Evasion can start coming into play by 5th level. By 10th, improved evasion becomes a problem as well. Plus, at higher levels, targets are more likely to save for half, which makes fireball 10d6/2 ~ 10d3

*A touch attack is very easy to pull off. Especially since the bigger a critter is, the lower it's touch AC. Goblins @ 1st level require higher rolls to hit than many 10th level beasties


Kitsune YMG wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:


I think I'm missing something. I can understand being against the lesser orbs (good enough that no one would take any of the other 1st lvl combat spells), but what's wrong with the regular and greater versions? (I'm just asking. Not wantingbto start an argument.) What if the orb spells didn't straight damage or their type with no added effect? Or maybe only an added effect if they crit?
graywulfe wrote:


I rather like the orb spells.

The orb spells are plain better than other spells of the same level. They do not allow saves (for damage) and have no SR. They are conj spells not evoc spells. To top it off, they have additional effects besides damage. Compare a fireball to an Orb of Fire.

@7th level
Fireball: 7d6; refl[1] for 1/2: 20' burst
Pros: Multiple Targets
Cons: Save for Half plus SR

Orb of Fire: 7d6; fort or dazed; single target
Pros: No save v damage, dazed is a great condition, no SR, 15d6 max
Cons: Single target, touch* attack, 4th level

This is the best comparison you can hope for. Comparing orb of Cold to Cone of Cold or (snicker) Ice Storm

@9th level
Ice Strom: 5d6 in cylinder
Pros: Long range, Theoretical multiple opponents, no save
Cons: Non-scaling damage, crappy area, SR

Cone of Cold: 9d6; refl[1] for 1/2: Cone
Pros: Multiple targets, max 15d6
Cons: Save for Half, SR, Cone means short range, 5th level

Orb of Cold: 9d6; fort or blinded; single target
Pros: No save v damage, blinded is a good condition, no SR, max 15d6
Cons: Single target, touch* attack

There is no reason to ever use Cone of Cold or Ice Storm as Ord of Cold is flat out better than both.

To fix the orb spells:
Damage dice to d4. School to evoc. Remove force and sonic orb. Perhaps acid as well. These energy types are A) Less common for resistance and B) Have ramifications for things with hardness (IIRC: May not be in PF)

[1] Evasion can start coming into play by 5th level. By 10th, improved evasion becomes a problem as well. Plus, at higher...

Thank you for the info. The reason i like the orb spells are because they are single target (which i prefer) for good damage. maybe make them spell resistance: yes like scorching ray.

Seeking ray was exceptionally good for a 3rd level spell (1d8/lvl, max 10d8) and was a touch attack for a 3rd lvl spell and did sonic damage. I think that's a bit potent IMO. a bit more than the orb spells (other than the greater versions and besides the fact that they got 15d6. Maybe take out the conditions would make them more balanced?

what are some good single target straight damage spells (if they include conditions thats fine as well) that are higher than 4th lvl? im getting ready to run a game at 1st level so ive been more focused on GM stuff rather than player specific things (such as spells and abilities. ill look at them when they come up in game.) thanks for any information on this.


There's not enough spells that move people around at lower levels. I mean, why do I have to wait until level 9 before being able to use telekinesis? Bring back and update spells like Slide (Greater) and Battering Ram please!


Genesis, which allows a person to create a small demi-plane to, also Black Blade of Destruction, the bastard child of Spiritual Weapon and Disintegrate.


6th level spell = Fireball, Greater
Area: 40-ft radius spread.
Same as fireball otherwise except as listed above and maxes out at (15d6 damage).

9th level spell = Fireball, Mega Blast
Area: 60-ft radius spread.
Same as fireball otherwise ecept as listed above and maxes out at (25d6 damage).

What i miss my using fireball spell at higher levels, i want them back, AND BIGGER BOOOOOM !!!


High level combat buff spells. I hate that as spells get more powerful, suddenly combat buffs are ignored (with only a few exceptions, one of which is Transformation which makes you unable to cast spells...gross).

You're telling me that high level AAs and EKs and DDs wouldn't research and create some killer high level spells to augment themselves with? Of course they would! And I petition my DM to do so every time I play one, but it would be nice to have some official spells on the record.

Greater Mage Armor would be good to see back. Even higher levels beyond third of the Mage Armor line would be awesome. Give the armor more abilities/bonuses or something. Same with variants of the Shield spell.

Wraithstrike was.....too good to be true. I don't even think bringing it back for one attack is a good idea. Then again Power Attack is at least capped now...More swift action spells like Spell Compendium had would be real cool as well.

More spells that make Arcane Archer worth playing, like an advanced form of Gravity Bow, or other cool effects like Arrow Eruption.

Some sorceror only spells that really go well with some of the bloodlines.


Sylvanite wrote:

High level combat buff spells. I hate that as spells get more powerful, suddenly combat buffs are ignored (with only a few exceptions, one of which is Transformation which makes you unable to cast spells...gross).

Idk what Paizo will put in for their Ultimate Magic book, but for these, i would check out Eldritch Secrets. they have things like Orge Strength, Unicorns Wisdom, Troll's Endurance, etc, which are 4th lvl and add +8.

Then they have 9th lvl ones that add +12. Good investment if you can use 3PP in your group.

Liberty's Edge

Fnipernackle wrote:
Malagant wrote:

All good ones, to add to the list though, I'd like to see revisions of...

** spoiler omitted **

Of course this is from a sorcerer/wizard point of view as those are what I prefer to play. I'm sure there are many great cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger spells out there that would make great spells for some of the new classes as well. I don't think the ones I've chosen here are horrific in the balance department, rather I feel they fill some of the gaps without crossing over into other classes specialties.

Glass strike?! That sound cool. What did it do and what book was it out of?

Spell Compendium, not sure where it came from before that though. It's alot like Flesh to Stone but turns the subject into glass. Makes it easier to shatter them. Or if you are more artistically inclined, use them as statues to decorate your keeps fountain or whatever :)


Glass strike?! That sound cool. What did it do and what book was it out of? Spell Compendium, not sure where it came from before that though. It's alot like Flesh to Stone but turns the subject into glass. Makes it easier to shatter them. Or if you are more artistically inclined, use them as statues to decorate your keeps fountain or whatever :)

Awe :P i thought it was gonna be more like what Voldemort did in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire movie. :(


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I'd like Ultimate Magic to add a line of arcane spells that allows sorcerers and wizards to deliver reliable significant single target damage across the four most common energy types (I've skipped sonic up to this point). I know alot of people really dislike the 'Orb' spells, so I've taken a stab at what I'm thinking of below:

Energy Missile spell line:

Energy Missile I
School Evocation [air, earth, fire, water; type changes to match damage type selected]
Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V,S,M (air: small piece of cotton, earth: small piece of rock, fire: small pinch of ash, water: small number of fish scales)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature or one object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half
Spell Resistance yes

A missile of magical elemental energy shoots forth from your outstretched palm and strikes one creature or unattended object, dealing 1d6 points of elemental damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d6 at 5th level. The type of elemental energy and its associated damage (air=electrical, earth=acid, fire= fire, water=cold) are determined by the caster at the time of casting and the type of the spell changes to match the element chosen. The caster must have line of sight to the target, although the missile will dodge around intervening obstacles to reach a target. As long as the target has less than total cover or concealment the missile will strike its target. A target may make a Reflex saving throw in order to take half damage. An object may be chosen as the target of this spell. If it is in the possession of a creature then the object uses the creature's saving throw for its own. If the object is larger than 5'x5'x5', or is part of a larger object (a section of wall, a large door, etc.) only a section 5'x5'x5' in volume will be affected.

Energy Missile II
School Evocation [air, earth, fire, water; type changes to match damage type selected]
Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V,S,M (air: small piece of cotton, earth: small piece of rock, fire: small pinch of ash, water: small number of fish scales)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature or one object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half
Spell Resistance yes

A missile of magical elemental energy shoots forth from your outstretched palm and strikes one creature or unattended object, dealing 1d6 points of elemental damage per caster level, to a maximum of 10d6 at 10th level. The type of elemental energy and its associated damage (air=electrical, earth=acid, fire= fire, water=cold) are determined by the caster at the time of casting and the type of the spell changes to match the element chosen. The caster must have line of sight to the target, although the missile will dodge around intervening obstacles to reach a target. As long as the target has less than total cover or concealment the missile will strike its target. A target may make a Reflex saving throw in order to take half damage. An object may be chosen as the target of this spell. If it is in the possession of a creature then the object uses the creature's saving throw for its own. If the object is larger than 5'x5'x5', or is part of a larger object (a section of wall, a large door, etc.) only a section 5'x5'x5' in volume will be affected.

Energy Missile III
School Evocation [air, earth, fire, water; type changes to match damage type selected]
Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V,S,M (air: small piece of cotton, earth: small piece of rock, fire: small pinch of ash, water: small number of fish scales)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature or one object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half
Spell Resistance yes

A missile of magical elemental energy shoots forth from your outstretched palm and strikes one creature or unattended object, dealing 1d6 points of elemental damage per caster level, to a maximum of 15d6 at 15th level. The type of elemental energy and its associated damage (air=electrical, earth=acid, fire= fire, water=cold) are determined by the caster at the time of casting and the type of the spell changes to match the element chosen. The caster must have line of sight to the target, although the missile will dodge around intervening obstacles to reach a target. As long as the target has less than total cover or concealment the missile will strike its target. A target may make a Reflex saving throw in order to take half damage. An object may be chosen as the target of this spell. If it is in the possession of a creature then the object uses the creature's saving throw for its own. If the object is larger than 5'x5'x5', or is part of a larger object (a section of wall, a large door, etc.) only a section 5'x5'x5' in volume will be affected.

Energy Missile IV
School Evocation [air, earth, fire, water; type changes to match damage type selected]
Level sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V,S,M (air: small piece of cotton, earth: small piece of rock, fire: small pinch of ash, water: small number of fish scales)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature or one object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half
Spell Resistance yes

A missile of magical elemental energy shoots forth from your outstretched palm and strikes one creature or unattended object, dealing 1d6 points of elemental damage per caster level, to a maximum of 20d6 at 20th level. The type of elemental energy and its associated damage (air=electrical, earth=acid, fire= fire, water=cold) are determined by the caster at the time of casting and the type of the spell changes to match the element chosen. The caster must have line of sight to the target, although the missile will dodge around intervening obstacles to reach a target. As long as the target has less than total cover or concealment the missile will strike its target. A target may make a Reflex saving throw in order to take half damage. An object may be chosen as the target of this spell. If it is in the possession of a creature then the object uses the creature's saving throw for its own. If the object is larger than 5'x5'x5', or is part of a larger object (a section of wall, a large door, etc.) only a section 5'x5'x5' in volume will be affected.

Energy Missile is Evocation, not Conjuration like the Orb spells. Energy Missile checks SR, which I know was a major sticking point for alot of people with the Orb spells. Energy Missile doesn't have a secondary effect, which the Orb spells did. Energy Missile doesn't have a to-hit roll, thus critical hits are not possible, unlike the Orb spells. Energy Missile allows a reflex saving throw for half damage, meaning that opponents with evasion (and thus presumably a high reflex save) stand a good chance of not being affected. However, Energy Missile has one significant benefit over the Orb spells: versatility. The energy type is chosen at the time of casting, not at the time of memorization.

Good gaming to all,

DJF


none, I like the word system and the spells they have already are great.

Adding more would be risky IMO.

Although a few like Sound Lance have a little utility and aren't that bad.

I would like to see more spells that are kind of like signature spells, the rare spells that only a few casters prepare. not because they are bad but simply because they have limited use.

The more you limit a spell, the more you see it come to life with creativity. (to a point, sometimes the nerf stick can murder...)

my 2 cents :)


Alternate Reality (or a variation since that name is probably not OGL)
Original source: 2nd Edition D&D Tome of Magic

Shadow Lodge

I'd like to see some low-level polymorph spells that granted natural attacks you could switch out. Changing claws to a bite for instance, with a loss in duration each time you did it(like when the duration of Produce Flame goes down by a minute when you throw it).

Liberty's Edge

Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

I'd like Ultimate Magic to add a line of arcane spells that allows sorcerers and wizards to deliver reliable significant single target damage across the four most common energy types (I've skipped sonic up to this point). I know alot of people really dislike the 'Orb' spells, so I've taken a stab at what I'm thinking of below:

** spoiler omitted **...

Energy Missile is Evocation, not Conjuration like the Orb spells. Energy Missile checks SR, which I know was a major sticking point for alot of people with the Orb spells. Energy Missile doesn't have a secondary effect, which the Orb spells did. Energy Missile doesn't have a to-hit roll, thus critical hits are not possible, unlike the Orb spells. Energy Missile allows a reflex saving throw for half damage, meaning that opponents with evasion (and thus presumably a high reflex save) stand a good chance of not being affected. However, Energy Missile has one significant benefit over the Orb spells: versatility. The energy type is chosen at the time of casting, not at the time of memorization.

Good gaming to all,

DJF

I don't understand where the orb spell hate comes from. Fairly low damage potential at the higher levels, one shot hit or miss, conjuration rather than evocation (meaning it gathers existing material/energy rather than creates it on the spot) adding versatility to those that have taken evocation as an opposed school, they are single target only.

The two sticking points I see could be, bypasses SR however, Acid Arrow does that already and the secondary effects.

As a solution I'd propose dropping the secondary effects for the lesser versions and limiting the damage dice to d6's.

I also like the Energy Missile idea though, I still think wizards should be able to do damage without having to rely exclusively on Evocation.


Dr. Johnny Fever wrote:

I'd like Ultimate Magic to add a line of arcane spells that allows sorcerers and wizards to deliver reliable significant single target damage across the four most common energy types (I've skipped sonic up to this point). I know alot of people really dislike the 'Orb' spells, so I've taken a stab at what I'm thinking of below:

Energy Missile spell line:

Energy Missile is Evocation, not Conjuration like the Orb spells. Energy Missile checks SR, which I know was a major sticking point for alot of people with the Orb spells. Energy Missile doesn't have a secondary effect, which the Orb spells did. Energy Missile doesn't have a to-hit roll, thus critical hits are not possible, unlike the Orb spells. Energy Missile allows a reflex saving throw for half damage, meaning that opponents with evasion (and thus presumably a high reflex save) stand a good chance of not being affected. However, Energy Missile has one significant benefit over the Orb spells: versatility. The energy type is chosen at the time of casting, not at the time of memorization.

Good gaming to all,

I like some of what you've done, but some are still over/under powered. The 1st level spell needs to be 1d6/2 levels. 3rd is great, 5th needs a fort: negate effect (Fire Stunned 1 round, Cold fatigued, Electricity entangled 1 round, acid shaken 1 round), 7th need fort: partial (failed save 1 round => 2d4/exhausted: success as failed for 5th level)

Normally high level energy blasts suck because of immunities, but the ability to pick from 4 types with one spell makes up for that. Heck, add sonic back in there using d4's instead of d6's and it'll be fairly balanced.


Malagant wrote:
...conjuration rather than evocation...

This is the main reason why people hate it, as far as I can tell. Evocation sucks. It's the worst of the worst. But for the most part, it's the only way to do damage with a spell with a few exceptions. Orbs made evocation so completely skippable that it might as well not exist as a school at all.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Malagant wrote:
...conjuration rather than evocation...
This is the main reason why people hate it, as far as I can tell. Evocation sucks. It's the worst of the worst. But for the most part, it's the only way to do damage with a spell with a few exceptions. Orbs made evocation so completely skippable that it might as well not exist as a school at all.

i think evocation is one of the best schools of magic. now illusion on the other hand... :/ i mean, its good, but its not that good. idk bout PF, but in 3.5, EVERYONE when they could afford it got Goggles of True Seeing or something equivilant. made a lot of illusion spells innert

Liberty's Edge

Umbral Reaver wrote:
Malagant wrote:
...conjuration rather than evocation...
This is the main reason why people hate it, as far as I can tell. Evocation sucks. It's the worst of the worst. But for the most part, it's the only way to do damage with a spell with a few exceptions. Orbs made evocation so completely skippable that it might as well not exist as a school at all.

As long as there isn't a lot of spell bloat in this regard, the effects should be negligible. One possible solution could be to make evocations harder to evade or resist? Nothing is more frustrating than throwing a lightning bolt at a colossal dragon only to have it somehow make its reflex save and evade it for half damage...or it just resists it altogether through SR.


That's beside the point. If there are solid direct damage spells in conjuration, what does evocation have at all? It's not about the number of choices but the quality of those choices and where they lie.

Evocation could have ten thousand standard blasts and would still be left out in the cold if conjuration had the orbs again.


Umbral Reaver wrote:

That's beside the point. If there are solid direct damage spells in conjuration, what does evocation have at all? It's not about the number of choices but the quality of those choices and where they lie.

Evocation could have ten thousand standard blasts and would still be left out in the cold if conjuration had the orbs again.

This. Exactly.


Ok. Someone please enlighten me and show me

1. How evocation is a bad school.

2. How the orb spells are broken.


Fnipernackle wrote:

Ok. Someone please enlighten me and show me

1. How evocation is a bad school.

2. How the orb spells are broken.

I'm perfectly fine with evocation, so I will go with 2.

Orbs were very powerful because they delivered an high amount of damage AND a powerful condition like daze with a mere range touch attack. With enough metamagic were lethal.

But that's not the problem - a lot of people considered it a way to make direct damage VIABLE. The point is the "no SR thing", making them able to strike someone in the anti magic field.

In the top of that, the "SR:no" was due to the fact the spells were conjuration. Hence they were the best blasting spells, and were NOT of the school supposed being best at blasting (evocation) but of a school very good without even addinghaving this new feature (conjuration, the school of summons and other nice things).

BAD.

A different version of orbs, Evocation school, single target and SR:yes.. I'd be perfectly fine, even with a condition on top of them.


Kaiyanwang wrote:
Fnipernackle wrote:

Ok. Someone please enlighten me and show me

1. How evocation is a bad school.

2. How the orb spells are broken.

I'm perfectly fine with evocation, so I will go with 2.

Orbs were very powerful because they delivered an high amount of damage AND a powerful condition like daze with a mere range touch attack. With enough metamagic were lethal.

But that's not the problem - a lot of people considered it a way to make direct damage VIABLE. The point is the "no SR thing", making them able to strike someone in the anti magic field.

In the top of that, the "SR:no" was due to the fact the spells were conjuration. Hence they were the best blasting spells, and were NOT of the school supposed being best at blasting (evocation) but of a school very good without even addinghaving this new feature (conjuration, the school of summons and other nice things).

BAD.

A different version of orbs, Evocation school, single target and SR:yes.. I'd be perfectly fine, even with a condition on top of them.

Thank you for your explanation. I think that the orb spells (not the lesser versions of them) are fine with the conditions. you get a fort save against them. as far as the damage, the caster has to hit with a ranged touch attack to even do the dmg OR the added effect, and even thats not guaranteed.

I do agree with you though in that if they were "Evocation school, single target and SR:yes" they would be fine with me.


What Kaiyanwang was saying.

Evocation got to the point that it had to by pass Spell Resistance. Ever Evocation spell had to do this.

Conjuration was a loop-hole that could by pass spell resistance, and so more and more orb spells can into Creation.

Which kind of made since. After all, if the magic laws change, and fireball gets caped at 10d6 (vs unlimited like it use to be), and Creature gain SR like crazy... as in ever new creature created has it... well ya the Wizard started researching new spells to counter the Spell Resistance, and came out with Conjuration Damage spells.

There were times in 3.5, were i tried to do a build.. that every spell i took would work, because it did not allow Spell Resistance. After all, whats the fun in casting a spells and then: Saving throw, Spell resistance, Damage Resistance vs Energy type, Damage Immunity vs Energy Type, Spell Refection, .... and who knows what else was added to the creature to make it a wizard killer.

Now day i just throw my hands up.. if it work it work, if it dont it dont.

If i wanted to do Damage, i would make a 16th level Fighter with Greater Vital Strike feats and with +1 Flaming Shocking Holy great sword and fight evil creatures for 12d6 +1 (+1.5 x str bonus) per round, ever round.

The Exchange

What spells would I lie to see? More cantrips and orisons!

To my mind they're to most important spells in the game - available from the start of your spellcasting career to the end. I always did love figuring out interesting and useful things to do with cantrips even all the way back when they were introduced (in the first Unearthed Arcana I think..? Or possibly an issue of Dragon?). Now they're 'at will' they're an even more vital spellcaster resource.

After that I'd say more utility spells - can never have too many of those. There are already a zillion-and-one (give or take) combat spells, the last thing we need is any more... unless they have interesting effects (like hydraulic push) instead of just 'blastiness'.

Scarab Sages

Easy. All of those mass spells that are logical. Like Mass Shield of Faith. Mass Death Ward. The vigor spells! Adn the Sign spell for clerics. SOOO useful!

Scarab Sages

Easy. All of those mass spells that are logical. Like Mass Shield of Faith. Mass Death Ward. The vigor spells! Adn the Sign spell for clerics. SOOO useful!


One thing I wonder about massive loads more useful spells is if it will damage the parity between prepared casters and spontaneous casters even more.


Anything from the Book of Vile Darkness (mainly Preserve Organ and No Light) and Libris Mortis.


Wall of Sharks (though when cast out of water, it quickly becomes the highly ineffectual Pile of Sharks)


Maerimydra wrote:
There's not enough spells that move people around at lower levels. I mean, why do I have to wait until level 9 before being able to use telekinesis? Bring back and update spells like Slide (Greater) and Battering Ram please!

+1

I would also love to see a "levitate enemy" around spell level 3 or 4.


More enchantment spells with diverse uses, maybe even some that do damage?

Mental Assault

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

You telepathically assault the target's mind, dealing 1d6 damage per level (maximum 5d6) and leave the subject dazzled. A successful Will saving throw negates the effect.

Mental Assault, Greater

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

This spell functions like Mental Assault, except that the maximum damage is increased to 1d6 damage per level (maximum 10d6) and the subject is dazed instead of dazzled.

And maybe even a higher level spell that allows you to stun the target. Since these are mind-affecting and won't affect constructs or undead, I think they're pretty much in line with the rest of the enchantment school.

The Exchange

Those last two look a bit like the old 'Whelm' spells from 3.5 (which were mind-affecting non-lethal damage spells).

Scarab Sages

Spell Compendium favorites: Electric Jolt, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Familiar Pocket, Augment Familiar, Remove Scent, Mage Armor Greater, Chain Missile just to name a few.

Old school spells: Repel Insects/Vermin, Deep Pockets, Preserve, Detect Illusion, Sepia Snake Sigil, Filter, Animate Instrument, Armor Lock

Simple Ideas:
Cantrip: Repel Rain
2nd level divine: Gestalt Channel ~ In the following (caster level) rounds after the spell is cast, two or more clerics of the same deity can merge their channel energy to a combined total dice times 150%. So, two third level clerics combine for 6d6 instead of 4d6.


Assay SR. Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (Familiars are awesome, and why should bonded items get all the spells?) Heart of Air/Earth/Fire/Water. Electric Vengeance (and Greater-), Greater Mirror Image. Balor Nimbus.

(I miss Displacer Form as well, but that's even less likely to make a comeback than Wraithstrike, eh?)

In general, I'd like more interesting buffs, and more immediate and swift actions.


Assay spell resistance was quite broken IMHO. Some spell is balanced around SR. A flat +10 is too much (IMHO).


William Sinclair wrote:
Easy. All of those mass spells that are logical. Like Mass Shield of Faith. Mass Death Ward. The vigor spells! Adn the Sign spell for clerics. SOOO useful!

+1 on that

Also like more 0 zero level spells.

Also Greater Stone Shape, Greater Wall of Stone... spells.
Higher level, but lets you affect much large volume's.

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