Hey all.
So after a rather "WOW" moment with a Chuul and our 4th level party my DM has relised that we are far from smart when it comes to running away from things that could freakin kill us.
Anywho he has asked us to all make backup characters (Not a good sign right?) and I am looking at the summoner as I like "Pet" classes.
has anyone made a summoner handbook? all the choices are a tad overwhelming.
I'm thinking perhaps something mounted.
At first I was thinking of doing the Eidolon as the main character and do the actual summoner as its charge to protect. (Odd i know) however the 7 Int kinda killed that.
Anyway any help would be great, thanks.
Overpowered? really?
I'll admit I have not played one but it looked fairly balanced to me.
The only thing that I noticed was that it doesnt seem to have a limit on the number of weapon attacks it can have.
but all in all it looked like a fun class to try.
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Nah, he's okay. The reaction of some people is pretty similar to the badmouthing Tome of Battle or the Expanded Psionic Handbook had to endure.
The eidolon is probably the strongest of all pets, though. If you want to play a mounted summoner, take the quadruped eidolon, the mounted combat tree or the ranged combat tree and pounce. Arcane strike if you want extra damage, although that feat can probably wait till later levels. The summoner has similar problems as the bard when it comes to combat styles.
I thought a large cat pet for a druid was better than an eidolon?
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I haven't seen a summoner guide. It's not that hard to build a good summoner though.
Fortunately the Eidolon can be reconfigured so you can adapt it as you go.
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After looking through the Eidolon when someone decided to play it in our group.
The only thing I can really say for a fact is that Quad form is by far the best idea unless you layout some very specific build that you don't ever plan on needing Pounce. for a 1pt evoloution, it is a must.
For efficiency, it looks like loading up on Claw attacks is the best idea since they are Primary weapons and the feats and other evolutions apply to ALL of the attacks of that type.
Getting one Reach attack is probably the best idea so you have more AoO threats.
The biped is the best just all around slugger, the higher strength is really nice.
The Quad is obviously the most mobile and the only form that can pounce which is really nice (but not always amazing).
The serpent form is probably the weakest but you can make a pretty gnarly grappler with it.
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I'd need to stat out a Biped weapon user, I could see that outpacing the Quad possibly but the STR differance is only a few points. I guess these arguments also really depend on the DM that you have and how they setup encounters. I'm in a modified Worlds Largest Dungeon campaign right now, so I see pounce as pretty sexy and can't imagine not picking it up. Quad allows for the mount option. :)...My prev ramblings...The biped is the best just all around slugger, the higher strength is really nice.
The Quad is obviously the most mobile and the only form that can pounce which is really nice (but not always amazing).
The serpent form is probably the weakest but you can make a pretty gnarly grappler with it.
I am not referring to a weapon user, just claw,claw,bite.
If you like pounce then no worries, in some campaigns it's amazingly good, in some it's tough to charge a lot and it winds up being largely unused.
The strength difference is pretty significant when you consider the eidolons biggest problems relate to being able to hit things and damage resistance. The +1 damage nets you an extra three points of damage a round, more at higher levels with more attack per round. The +1 to hit is also pretty big for a creature that starts having trouble hitting things in the mid-high levels.
Biped gets Reach when he becomes Large, Quad does not, right?
Right.
The only thing that I noticed was that it doesnt seem to have a limit on the number of weapon attacks it can have.
That was an oversight. The total attacks number is intended to limit all attacks, weapon or natural.
I might be wrong but I have impression that Slam becomes the best attack at higher levels when it comes to pure melee damage - it is 1d8 at medium, 2d6 at Large, 3d6 at Huge, 4d6 with Improved Damage evolution and 6d6 with Improved Natural Attack feat (and a 18d6 on Improved Vital Strike when attacking after single move).
Of course Eidolon works best when build for a very specific function - Druid's Animal Companion might be a more universal combat pet.
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Keeping your summoner out of trouble is a very good idea. Not needing high physical stats for combat also allows you to raise your charisma to improve your spell DCs. The summoner spell list has a rather impressive number of battlefield.control spells, so being a caster is not a bad idea.
As for the eidolon, I'd go biped. Take bite early on and add reach and trip as soon as possible. Use evolution surge to give your eidolon the large evolution whenever there's enough room. Then you have a beast that can threaten 15 ft and trip anyone who tries to get past it.
Here's a level 10 eidolon I've built recently (I was bored...) . It's far from optimized as I had a specific task for it in mind but it might give some food go thought.
Biped base form. 14 evolution points. No equipment.
Evolutions:
Bite + Trip + Reach
Limbs (arms) + Claws + improved damage
Improved natural armor x2
Large
Next on the to-get list would be rend, but lesser evolution surge can easily grant that. It's also included in the damage below.
Feats:
Improved initiative
Combat Reflexes
Improved natural Attack (bite)
Improved natural armor
STR 30
Dex 14
Con 17
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11
AC 28
HP 72
Fort +9 ref +4 will +6
4 claws + 18 (1d8+10 plus rend, 10 ft reach)
bite +18 (2d6+10 plus trip, 15 ft reach)
If all attacks hit (plus rend) we are looking at about 71-113 damage. Have it bite first to trip the enemy for +4 on all claw attacks.
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| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
An oddball question if you will...
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
"Bite (Ex): An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite"
Can a biped Eidolon take the bite evolution twice to get 1.5x strength damage?
Seems like based on the quoted bit above the only eidolon that can do that is the Quadraped but perhaps at one point Jason or Sean posted a clarification about this? I checked the FAQ and nothing.
An oddball question if you will...
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.""Bite (Ex): An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite"
Can a biped Eidolon take the bite evolution twice to get 1.5x strength damage?
Seems like based on the quoted bit above the only eidolon that can do that is the Quadraped but perhaps at one point Jason or Sean posted a clarification about this? I checked the FAQ and nothing.
From RAW I'd say bite can be taken only once. A biped would gain the bite attack, the other forms the 1.5x strength damage.
Still, it's probably faq worthy.
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An oddball question if you will...
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.""Bite (Ex): An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite"
Can a biped Eidolon take the bite evolution twice to get 1.5x strength damage?
Seems like based on the quoted bit above the only eidolon that can do that is the Quadraped but perhaps at one point Jason or Sean posted a clarification about this? I checked the FAQ and nothing.
From RAW I'd say bite can be taken only once. A biped would gain the bite attack, the other forms the 1.5x strength damage.
Still, it's probably faq worthy.
Hmm, that means the other forms get 1:3 power attack on bite also which significantly bumps the damage on bite... hmm.
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Pounce is crap. Everyone who isn't building a Biped with Slam, Weapon Focus (Slam) and Improved Strength has a far weaker Eidolon. I'm only level 2 and my initial attack (Slam) with guidance is +9 attack and 2d6+5 damage. Then I enlarge (lose guidance) and the slam is +8 attack and 3d6+6 damage. The 2 claws are +7, d4+5.
Of course you should first enlarge a Barbarian or Fighter if they have a greataxe build and are in your party (they will out dps Eidolons). At level 1 an Enlarged Raging Barbarian with MW Greataxe is +9 attack, 3d6+15.
Keep in mind the Eidolon is VERY weak defensively (horrible HP with <1 HD per level) so you really should have a mage armor wand, shield and Resistance. Also it underperforms vs any high AC mob like a boss (since it has lower attack), but summoner IMO is the best dps vs minions or trash mobs.
Pounce is crap. Everyone who isn't building a Biped with Slam, Weapon Focus (Slam) and Improved Strength has a far weaker Eidolon. I'm only level 2 and my initial attack (Slam) with guidance is +9 attack and 2d6+5 damage. Then I enlarge (lose guidance) and the slam is +8 attack and 3d6+6 damage. The 2 claws are +7, d4+5.
Where are you getting the evolution points for such an eidolon at level 2? You have 4 points and only getting a slam in addition to your 2 basic claw attacks costs you 3 of these points (2 for an additional pair of arms, 1 for the slam attack). I have no idea how you get a strength increase.
Note that you can't use slam and claws with the same pair of arms.
Note that you can't use slam and claws with the same pair of arms.
Logically, no. However, unless I've missed a rule in the bestiary somewhere (entirely possible) or the APG, there are no rules about natural attacks that originate from the same limb being limited.
I can actually visualize a slam/claw attack. Wolverine using his fists (clenched together) to slam down into someone, then bringing both hands back up to stab his claws into someone.
An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Why would anyone replace the slam if you could just add it on top of the claws to the same pair of arms?
I'm pretty sure you can only add one of these evolutions to a single Limbs (Arms) evolution.
Pounce is crap. Everyone who isn't building a Biped with Slam, Weapon Focus (Slam) and Improved Strength has a far weaker Eidolon. I'm only level 2 and my initial attack (Slam) with guidance is +9 attack and 2d6+5 damage. Then I enlarge (lose guidance) and the slam is +8 attack and 3d6+6 damage. The 2 claws are +7, d4+5.Where are you getting the evolution points for such an eidolon at level 2? You have 4 points and only getting a slam in addition to your 2 basic claw attacks costs you 3 of these points (2 for an additional pair of arms, 1 for the slam attack). I have no idea how you get a strength increase.
Note that you can't use slam and claws with the same pair of arms.
Also, how is your Slam Damage 2d6+5 on 2nd level? Unless it was meant to be Improved Damage (1d8 -> 2d6), still I don't know why the damage bonus is +5?
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Evo points are on Slam, Str+2, Imp Damage-Slam. The slam can be additive to the arm claws (as mentioned - I haven't seen a rule against) or the claws can apply to the LEGS and the slam to the arms (carefully read the Claws evo). Slam damage of 2d6+5 is from Summoners Call - Strength (Str+2 for 10min), Str+2 evo, Imp Damage evo and Weapon Focus - Slam.
An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.Why would anyone replace the slam if you could just add it on top of the claws to the same pair of arms?
I'm pretty sure you can only add one of these evolutions to a single Limbs (Arms) evolution.
This is another case (which I hadn't noticed) of the Summoner class having internal inconsistency. Obviously, based on the text of the Slam entry, the devs intended for the biped base form to have claws on it's limbs(arms) only. However, it was not specified, only that the claws evolution is granted with the base form, not where it is located. This could have been fixed by making it claws(arms) in the base description.
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I don't really think it is inconsistent. The whole point of an Eidolon is that it isn't a fixed creature, it is mutable. You could summon one with claws on the arms and one with claws on the legs. IMO they left things intentionally vague or else it forces your Eidolon to look like a very specific creature. Surely a biped can have leg claws (think of a velociraptor). You argument isn't obvious, the text can be just to prevent stacking abilities on limbs instead of preventing claw flexibility.
I don't really think it is inconsistent. The whole point of an Eidolon is that it isn't a fixed creature, it is mutable. You could summon one with claws on the arms and one with claws on the legs. IMO they left things intentionally vague or else it forces your Eidolon to look like a very specific creature. Surely a biped can have leg claws (think of a velociraptor). You argument isn't obvious, the text can be just to prevent stacking abilities on limbs instead of preventing claw flexibility.
Yes, my argument is obvious. Please look at the slam entry.
Blave wrote:Slam Evolution wrote:
An eidolon can deliver a devastating slam attack. This attack is a primary attack. The slam deals 1d8 points of damage (2d6 if Large, 2d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution. Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point). This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
This (bolded) entry is meaningless if the claws from the base form were intended to be put on either location.
Evo points are on Slam, Str+2, Imp Damage-Slam. The slam can be additive to the arm claws (as mentioned - I haven't seen a rule against) or the claws can apply to the LEGS and the slam to the arms (carefully read the Claws evo). Slam damage of 2d6+5 is from Summoners Call - Strength (Str+2 for 10min), Str+2 evo, Imp Damage evo and Weapon Focus - Slam.
I'm certain that the Devs intended for the Biped form's claws to be on their arms, not their legs (look in Slam's description). Unfortionately, they've been quite specific in saying that you don't have the ability to edit the base forms, so you can't just move the claws to the eidolon's legs.
Evo points are on Slam, Str+2, Imp Damage-Slam. The slam can be additive to the arm claws (as mentioned - I haven't seen a rule against) or the claws can apply to the LEGS and the slam to the arms (carefully read the Claws evo). Slam damage of 2d6+5 is from Summoners Call - Strength (Str+2 for 10min), Str+2 evo, Imp Damage evo and Weapon Focus - Slam.I'm certain that the Devs intended for the Biped form's claws to be on their arms, not their legs (look in Slam's description). Unfortionately, they've been quite specific in saying that you don't have the ability to edit the base forms, so you can't just move the claws to the eidolon's legs.
While I agree with your statement about the intent, they unfortunately didn't specify where the claws went, they only specified you got them. That leaves it up to the GM to decide.
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As for the pounce is crap... I am pretty skeptical about it myself but not for the reasons you say.
You can similarly make a second level a quadraped with a bite attack that does +7 (w/o guidance cheese*) 2d6+4 and does 3d6+6 when enlarged... So slightly lower attack bonus but damage is close and since it does 1.5x strength damage and 1:3 power attack it's single attack damage is going to scale better with that bite attack.
For example: The above mentioned biped eidolon that has a 2d6+10 bite would do 2d6+13 and on power attack it would do 2d6+22 while the biped would only do 2d6+16. It's attack bonus and damage on it's claws would still lag 1 point behind the biped due to the strength penalty.
All that said... I'm still pretty skeptical the quadraped can keep up, I just don't think it's nearly as cut and dried as some people paint it.
As for pounce, it seems like for some groups its a lot better than others. Like a lot of powers it depends on the GM and the type of encounters you have. It is really nice to get that +2 charging bonus on all your attacks which helps compensate for the lower attack bonus.
In PFS the bestiary feats aren't available to eidolons so Improved Natural Attack isn't available so you can't get 2d6 on either build. Assuming you use power attack instead the biting eidolon has a slight edge on damage due to the 1:3 power attack.
Wait what? Why not?
EDIT: Oh, PFS...but still why?
Evo points are on Slam, Str+2, Imp Damage-Slam. The slam can be additive to the arm claws (as mentioned - I haven't seen a rule against) or the claws can apply to the LEGS and the slam to the arms (carefully read the Claws evo). Slam damage of 2d6+5 is from Summoners Call - Strength (Str+2 for 10min), Str+2 evo, Imp Damage evo and Weapon Focus - Slam.
Ok, now when you listed it all it makes sense - it hadn't computed with the things you listed in previous post.
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In PFS the bestiary feats aren't available to eidolons so Improved Natural Attack isn't available so you can't get 2d6 on either build. Assuming you use power attack instead the biting eidolon has a slight edge on damage due to the 1:3 power attack.
Wait what? Why not?
EDIT: Oh, PFS...but still why?
Because in the PFS guide it says Bestiary feats are off limits and Josh Frost said explicitly that there it applies to critters as well as characters. I'm not certain if it was a done for character balance or some other reason. Unless you play PFS it doesn't matter.
The only reason I mentioned it is because it is a significant consideration for some people.
In PFS the bestiary feats aren't available to eidolons so Improved Natural Attack isn't available so you can't get 2d6 on either build. Assuming you use power attack instead the biting eidolon has a slight edge on damage due to the 1:3 power attack.
Wait what? Why not?
EDIT: Oh, PFS...but still why?
Because in the PFS guide it says Bestiary feats are off limits and Josh Frost said explicitly that there it applies to critters as well as characters. I'm not certain if it was a done for character balance or some other reason. Unless you play PFS it doesn't matter.
The only reason I mentioned it is because it is a significant consideration for some people.
So none of the monsters you fight in PFS have those feats in the modules?
Wierd...
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In PFS the bestiary feats aren't available to eidolons so Improved Natural Attack isn't available so you can't get 2d6 on either build. Assuming you use power attack instead the biting eidolon has a slight edge on damage due to the 1:3 power attack.
Wait what? Why not?
EDIT: Oh, PFS...but still why?
Because in the PFS guide it says Bestiary feats are off limits and Josh Frost said explicitly that there it applies to critters as well as characters. I'm not certain if it was a done for character balance or some other reason. Unless you play PFS it doesn't matter.
The only reason I mentioned it is because it is a significant consideration for some people.
So none of the monsters you fight in PFS have those feats in the modules?
Wierd...
The guide is limits for the players not for the folks who write the scenarios.
While I agree with your statement about the intent, they unfortunately didn't specify where the claws went, they only specified you got them. That leaves it up to the GM to decide.I was considering doing this exact thing myself, it feels wasteful letting that one evolution point fall on the floor.
Honestly, I got so fed up with all the little exceptions and rules that work almost but not quite the same for Summoners, and everything else, that I just rewrote the entire class. I have no intention of ever using the base class in one of my games. I ended up spllitting it into a dual-class. You either go the summon monster route, or the pet route.
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(w/o guidance cheese*)It only applies to one roll, so if they want to cycle the spell every so often let them... its the point of cantrips.
It does slightly favor the big single attack in that more eggs are in one basket. Mind you in general more spread out attacks favors the players over one big attack so once you weigh that in it less of an issue.
-James
Except it's too erratic to really quantify as a base assumption. By the same measure I could list the pounce build with the assumption that the first round of combat is always a pounce in which case the pounce build is vastly superior because you get three attacks versus one and you get a +2 on all three attacks.
My current summoner is leveraging the teamwork feats to get the +4 flanking bonus, should I include that in the statblock?
When you are discussing the relative merits of two options you can't assume that some intermittent factor is going to be in effect because it is not going to be there all the time, or even most of the time.
Pathfinder DB has my rewrite of the class up now. If anyone is interested.
Does anyone build Eidolon's with the idea of being well-rounded instead of glass cannons?
I've thought about doing a quad with bite for awhile- mainly to have evo's to spare on defense and such. Not really interested in it keeping up with other Eidolon- but rather if it can make the class effective overall?
It just seems to me that if you blow 90-100% of your evo's on offense that you are a slag pool waiting to happen. And then your DPR drops to 0.
Is that just a total waste of time? Is "glass cannon" the real name of Big E?
-S
Does anyone build Eidolon's with the idea of being well-rounded instead of glass cannons?
I've thought about doing a quad with bite for awhile- mainly to have evo's to spare on defense and such. Not really interested in it keeping up with other Eidolon- but rather if it can make the class effective overall?
It just seems to me that if you blow 90-100% of your evo's on offense that you are a slag pool waiting to happen. And then your DPR drops to 0.
Is that just a total waste of time? Is "glass cannon" the real name of Big E?
-S
I've always built them well rounded, and so have people in my games.
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Does anyone build Eidolon's with the idea of being well-rounded instead of glass cannons?
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It just seems to me that if you blow 90-100% of your evo's on offense that you are a slag pool waiting to happen. And then your DPR drops to 0.
Is that just a total waste of time? Is "glass cannon" the real name of Big E?
-S
IMO it is a waste of time. You want it to be a pure dps powerhouse. When the Eido dies the summoner is far from useless, and occasionally more powerful. One scenario we fought a demon hovering 50 feet in the air. Fortunately my Eidolon died earlier, so I summoned an air elemental (I was <5 so Eido was grounded). Another time we fought fire elementals and unfortunately my Eidolon was out. If it wasn't, a water elemental would have 1-shotted each of them (they dispel magic fire of certain HD). Yet another time there were horrendous traps covering a room and an amazing archer on the other side pot-shooting us. Eidolon would have died but I could've summoned a mob right behind him and attacked. Also summons can usually provide flanking bonuses to your entire party's melees (you can summon right behind them etc). Finally, you can always mem the summon eidolon spell.
The shared item slot nerf is doubly nerfed if you have to focus on both defensive and offensive magic items instead of offensive.
Keep in mind defenses almost never matter unless you die in an encounter because you can usually just wand rejuvenate to full after. So all your evo's are wasted unless you would have avoided a dead Eido.
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What Killroy said. Plus, summon eidilon is the best summon spell (minutes/ level). It also let's you use your summon ability, and both benefit from the +4 Str / +4 Con (which regular Eidilon cannot). Further, if you are Neutral it is a neutral summon so won't be hedged put by Protect Evil, unlike almost all summon monsters.
And with that version, who cares if he dies?
There is a summoner handbook here.