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recently had a situation inwhich players AC ape was redused to 1 intel score. He uses animal dominate on him to overide confusion. Then has it attack bad guy for a full round attack. First blow knocks him out, second kills. he had already rolled the attack roll, when another player pointed out that needed to keep alive. This ruined a faction mission. Could I have ruled it that he stopped the ape in time? This happened before when it wasnt a faction mission and the guy rolled a crit on first hit which made second a killing blow. we decide than it was an action in motion he didnt relize the effect till done. Any ideas? Should I go back and add the faction point? Note that that players pc was knocked out, but had asked if they found person "A" to keep him alive. Also they didnt know who they fought really. It was the last battle and could guess though. In truth I had forgot aswell he needed to survive, till argument came up during attck phase. THANKS for any help, as im still new to alot of these rules inwhich most of my players know better than I do.
Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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He used animal dominate on him to overide confusion, then had it attack the bad guy for a full round attack. The first blow knocked him out and the second killed him.
(snip...)
Could I have ruled that he stopped the ape in time?
As the GM, you're the man on the spot, entitled to make whatever decisions seem necessary and fair. As such, you could rule that the PC dominating the ape has complete control and can stop it at any time.
I'd tend to rule that controlling the ape takes a couple of seconds, so while the party member was urging the ape's controller to "take him alive", the ape was busily rending the poor guy.
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He used animal dominate on him to overide confusion, then had it attack the bad guy for a full round attack. The first blow knocked him out and the second killed him.
(snip...)
Could I have ruled that he stopped the ape in time?
As the GM, you're the man on the spot, entitled to make whatever decisions seem necessary and fair. As such, you could rule that the PC dominating the ape has complete control and can stop it at any time.
I'd tend to rule that controlling the ape takes a couple of seconds, so while the party member was urging the ape's controller to "take him alive", the ape was busily rending the poor guy.
As GM on spot I feel overwhelmed at times trying to keep tract of all the rules. I GMed 2nd edition alot and missed 3rd and 3.5. I new rules back than much better. I say this that there are times, that i need to make desesions on the spot, but later relook at them when i dont have so much on my mind and ? whether could do different, I have players that argue with each other over rules that I dont know answer too right away, but need to make decisions on. Thanks for your answer and reading my venting
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As GM on spot I feel overwhelmed at times trying to keep tract of all the rules. I GMed 2nd edition alot and missed 3rd and 3.5. I new rules back than much better. I say this that there are times, that i need to make desesions on the spot, but later relook at them when i dont have so much on my mind and ? whether could do different, I have players that argue with each other over rules that I dont know answer too right away, but need to make decisions on. Thanks for your answer and reading my ventingHe used animal dominate on him to overide confusion, then had it attack the bad guy for a full round attack. The first blow knocked him out and the second killed him.
(snip...)
Could I have ruled that he stopped the ape in time?
As the GM, you're the man on the spot, entitled to make whatever decisions seem necessary and fair. As such, you could rule that the PC dominating the ape has complete control and can stop it at any time.
I'd tend to rule that controlling the ape takes a couple of seconds, so while the party member was urging the ape's controller to "take him alive", the ape was busily rending the poor guy.
I was the player controlling the ape.
At the time I was making the attacks, I didn't remember about the request to keep X alive. Also at the time I made the attacks, all I had was a name of the person to keep alive, and I had no idea what the name of this person was.
I was conflicted myself at the time.
I tend to try to self-rule myself on two things.
1) No metagaming. If my character has no reason to know the information, than I will play the character as if I do not know the information. (For good or bad.)
2) I try not to ask for take-backs in the case of poor judgment. If it's a case of the DM giving mistaken information that would have led my character to do something entirely different, I don't mind retconing the situation. But if its a case of me screwing up, then I live with the screw up. (I have one scenario where I got 0 PA because I didn't remember to take 20 on a search, and assumed I'd be able to thoroughly search an area later. Turned out that the entire dungeon collapsed in on itself before I could do the search again. My bad.)
Given that I didn't remember the request, and that my character did not know the NPC's name, and that the character who had asked for that favor was unconscious and unable to remind me (and had not reminded me of such when the encounter began - as in "Hey, that's the guy we need to keep alive!"), I didn't ask for a retcon, and would have accepted the situation if it had happened to me.
The other player referred to this as me "screwing them" out of their faction point, which made me feel bad, especially considering that I generally try to be as helpful as possible with others and their faction missions (I once used my diplomacy to convince an NPC to meet with another faction's representative so that a party member without diplomacy could meet their goal), but I try to ascribe that to the heat of the moment.
I'd be interested to hear if others feel that I was in the wrong here.
Thanks!
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The request to NOT kill the "one responsible for all these kidnappings" was made well in advance of the final fight. The reason this request was made is because of his damn ape. The thing usually needs to only hit something once to kill it, so I made sure to let him know in advance that I wanted to NOT obliterate the foe. In fact, it was made before we'd even left the docks to go find the safe-house and given all the fighting we'd done to get to this point ... it was likely going to be the final fight. Once we entered the room, there was only one person (unless controlled undead count as viable leaders - the very act that they were controlled says otherwise) to deal with.
The rest of us were blocked in by minions, then I got confused and nearly killed our sorceress as a result, which meant the other fighter needed to turn his attention to me in the hopes of stopping me from killing any more party members. The cleric and his ape were the only ones fighting the boss. After dominating his ape, he had it steal a necklace from the man so that he could also dominate the remaining undead minion. Being that he was controlling BOTH creatures that were beating up the guy, he could just as easily had his ape grapple then pin the man, until it could be confirmed that this was the one we needed.
Needless to say, I don't plan to play anymore games with that particular cleric again.
THANKS for any help, as im still new to alot of these rules in which most of my players know better than I do.
What happened wasn't really a rule thing, so it's nothing to worry about :) You do pretty darn good as a GM.
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The request to NOT kill the "one responsible for all these kidnappings" was made well in advance of the final fight. The reason this request was made is because of his damn ape. The thing usually needs to only hit something once to kill it, so I made sure to let him know in advance that I wanted to NOT obliterate the foe. In fact, it was made before we'd even left the docks to go find the safe-house and given all the fighting we'd done to get to this point ... it was likely going to be the final fight. Once we entered the room, there was only one person (unless controlled undead count as viable leaders - the very act that they were controlled says otherwise) to deal with.
The rest of us were blocked in by minions, then I got confused and nearly killed our sorceress as a result, which meant the other fighter needed to turn his attention to me in the hopes of stopping me from killing any more party members. The cleric and his ape were the only ones fighting the boss. After dominating his ape, he had it steal a necklace from the man so that he could also dominate the remaining undead minion. Being that he was controlling BOTH creatures that were beating up the guy, he could just as easily had his ape grapple then pin the man, until it could be confirmed that this was the one we needed.
Needless to say, I don't plan to play anymore games with that particular cleric again.
I could have sworn that the request was "if we find so-and-so, don't kill him", but looking over the faction note just now, I see that you are correct in that it says when you find the person responsible, deliver him to X place. And even that to a player would point to Lucilla (all of the minions state that they were working for her), and in her pocket we found a map to where the prisoners were kept. I remember thinking when we were fighting that final battle, before Mister Chuckles killed the evil cleric that he was the one that Lucilla left guarding the prisoners.
Obviously I was mistaken.
Honestly, it's just one PA. I've had multiple missions where I didn't get full PA (usually because the second PA requires some skill check that I just can't make), but if it's really a game breaker for you, then if Jeff wants to, it's entirely within his decision (as I said at the table) to award the PA anyway.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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As GM on spot I feel overwhelmed at times trying to keep tract of all the rules.
It's unrealistic to expect any GM to have every situation's rules perfectly memorized, so give yourself a break there. It sounds like you made a reasonable call after the player forgot his party member's request to keep his ape in check.
It's unrealistic to expect any GM to have every situation's rules perfectly memorized, so give yourself a break there. It sounds like you made a reasonable call after the player forgot his party member's request to keep his ape in check.
100% Agreed.
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Obviously I wasn't there, but this does sound like it was a misunderstanding, a mistake that had an unfortunate consequence. While its sad, I think its worse to have hard feelings between people over a situation like this.
It may not be much of a consolation, but the system has been stated to not be designed for 100% faction point attainment.
I just hate to see something like this disrupt a game, and more than that, to see this get in the way of people being able to enjoy a game at the same table.
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This whole discussion is wrong. Jeff, you do a great job GMing! Whether or not our cleric remembered that we were to capture and return this evil person is immaterial. Conditions were already set in motion that would prevent this from happening. First, PC1 was confused and attacked PC2 with her most powerful attack reducing PC2 to negative HP and unconsciousness. Second, PC1 was out of action due to the confusion, leaving only two PCs and an animal companion left. The "evil Cleric" then channeled negative energy which injured the entire Party and inadvertently coup de graced PC2. No PCs were aware "with in game knowledge" that PC2 was now dead. As far as the Party Cleric knew, PC2 was down, but not necessarily dead, the "Evil Cleric" and his two minions continued to press the attack. The "Evil Cleric" could again, at any time, channel negative energy, so the Party Cleric commanded his dominated companion to kill the "Evil Cleric". It is sad that he could not be captured, but when put in context, there was no way to capture him without vulnerable PCs possibly being put at further risk. Jeff, I have no problem with how things turned out, and after all, I was the PC who died, and I lost more than a simple "Prestige Point".
You raise a good point about the CNE. (Though on first reading, I thought you were referring to Brother Elias as the "evil cleric" <g>).
Brother Elias would have gone down with the next CNE. The Animal Companion was fairly well off, but without the Dominate Animal active, and the Confusion taking over, there was a reasonably good chance that it would have attacked the party, and probably TPK'd everyone. (Brother Elias very first scenario - Mists of Mwangi, when he was a Level 1 Druid in Season 0 very nearly resulted in a TPK at his hands due to a similar effect. Ask KEJR.)
As Jeff M noted at the beginning of the encounter, that particular Scenario has resulted in at least a few TPKs.
BTW, since I haven't said so before - Jeff M did, as always, a fine job in running the event. I sincerely appreciate the effort he puts into preparation each time he runs a game.
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This whole discussion is wrong. Jeff, you do a great job GMing! Whether or not our cleric remembered that we were to capture and return this evil person is immaterial. Conditions were already set in motion that would prevent this from happening. First, PC1 was confused and attacked PC2 with her most powerful attack reducing PC2 to negative HP and unconsciousness. Second, PC1 was out of action due to the confusion, leaving only two PCs and an animal companion left. The "evil Cleric" then channeled negative energy which injured the entire Party and inadvertently coup de graced PC2. No PCs were aware "with in game knowledge" that PC2 was now dead. As far as the Party Cleric knew, PC2 was down, but not necessarily dead, the "Evil Cleric" and his two minions continued to press the attack. The "Evil Cleric" could again, at any time, channel negative energy, so the Party Cleric commanded his dominated companion to kill the "Evil Cleric". It is sad that he could not be captured, but when put in context, there was no way to capture him without vulnerable PCs possibly being put at further risk. Jeff, I have no problem with how things turned out, and after all, I was the PC who died, and I lost more than a simple "Prestige Point".
caught that did you. yea i was trying to not do another channel, but with his best spells gone his next action would have been CNE. will have to keep my eye on you, seems you see more than I thought. And after Fiona almost single handedly took out the BBEG in the last one. Yes this one is worth watching closely.. Thanks for support
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Being that he was controlling BOTH creatures that were beating up the guy, he could just as easily had his ape grapple then pin the man, until it could be confirmed that this was the one we needed.
This would NOT have stopped the cleric from Channeling Negative Energy, which would have taken down Brother Elias.
Once Brother Elias was unconscious, the Dominate Animal would not have been controlling the ape (absent any active commands), and the confusion would have taken over.
A confused Mister Chuckles would have attacked the creature that last attacked him (the "evil cleric"), killing him outright (again), and then started rolling to see what he did next. Given the length of time the confusion spell runs, he would have had a high probability of attacking and killing the party, like you attacked the Sorceress in the party.
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recently had a situation inwhich players AC ape was redused to 1 intel score. He uses animal dominate on him to overide confusion. Then has it attack bad guy for a full round attack. First blow knocks him out, second kills. he had already rolled the attack roll, when another player pointed out that needed to keep alive. This ruined a faction mission. Could I have ruled it that he stopped the ape in time? This happened before when it wasnt a faction mission and the guy rolled a crit on first hit which made second a killing blow. we decide than it was an action in motion he didnt relize the effect till done. Any ideas? Should I go back and add the faction point? Note that that players pc was knocked out, but had asked if they found person "A" to keep him alive. Also they didnt know who they fought really. It was the last battle and could guess though. In truth I had forgot aswell he needed to survive, till argument came up during attck phase. THANKS for any help, as im still new to alot of these rules inwhich most of my players know better than I do.
One further point Jeff, and one that has really more bearing on what did/could have happened.
From dominate animal: "Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action."
Once given the instruction to full-attack the cleric, there would have been no time in which Brother Elias could have interrupted Mister Chuckles to tell him to discontinue the action.
So the choices boiled down to:
1) Single Attack - which may or may not have hit, and if it hit, it may or may not have brought down the evil cleric. If the cleric was up, he would Channel Negative Energy, bringing down Brother Elias, leading to a possible/probable TPK.
2) Grapple and Pin - the evil cleric would still have been able to Channel Negative Energy, in which case we're looking at at more than possible TPK situation.
3) No attack, and hope someone else brings down the evil cleric - See options 1 and 2.
4) Full attack. This is the only option that I saw that had a reasonable chance of bringing the cleric down. 3 attacks. Each hit (power attacking) is 1d6+10 damage. As it turned out, Mister Chuckles hit twice and missed once.
As Chris S has stated, none of the characters had in-game knowledge that the Sorceress Fiona was dead. She was down, and if she was unconscious then a CNE would most probably have killed her.
The Evil Cleric had a 4d6 CNE. That's an average of 14 points damage. I don't know how many hit points everyone else's character still had, but Brother Elias was close to zero. Fiona was down. The two fighters were battling each other, and one or more of them might have been close to zero - one was attacking her own party members.
I've been trying to come up with a viable option that didn't mean that my character would have died in the game but would have provided that second prestige point to Mortiana. The more I think about the situation, the more precarious the party's position actually looks.
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One thing about this... As a player (and GM), I always rule that animals stop attacking when the target goes down. If that first attack kills the target, or drop it to 0-1 and the second kills... That's life.
Remember, as a player you can always invoke the "don't be a jerk" rule (don't do it too often, tho).
And as a player if you say that your animal companion would stop when the target goes down, I don't think many GM would say "no it must keep attacking". It is a reasonable assumption to make.
In all, although it sucks, faction missions are not always automatic and bad things will happen. I had more than a few adventure where I got a goose egg (usually because I'd do foolish things).
JP
