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Maybe it's just me but does anyone else think Tarquin has just completly lost the plot?
That's kinda the point. He never had the plot. He thought the whole thing revolved around him, which is why he thinks Elan should be the primary hero instead of Roy. He doesn't realize that dealing with him was never more than a side quest for the Order.
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Show-off.
...I'm so distracted I forgot about the alignment debate!Let's all forget about the alignment debate.
I had forgotten about it. Until you posted this. Dang.
Maybe it's just me but does anyone else think Tarquin has just completly lost the plot?That's kinda the point. He never had the plot. He thought the whole thing revolved around him, which is why he thinks Elan should be the primary hero instead of Roy. He doesn't realize that dealing with him was never more than a side quest for the Order.
like I said earlier, zagnut.
Tarquin's insistence on genre convention is endearing, but it's fun to see how rapidly it crosses the line into creepy puppet-mastery. As with Redcloak, if he doesn't do something unforgivable now and then, sympathetic fans might forget that he's a bad, bad man...
(Quick: Which one was a more hideous moment: "Eat her, then eat each other..." or "Kill all the ones in the crater"?)
While the other was creepier, it's evil creatures doing evil things to evil creatures.
The latter is more evil, as it's evil creatures doing evil things to (mostly non-evil creatures).
Tarquin's insistence on genre convention is endearing, but it's fun to see how rapidly it crosses the line into creepy puppet-mastery. As with Redcloak, if he doesn't do something unforgivable now and then, sympathetic fans might forget that he's a bad, bad man...
(Quick: Which one was a more hideous moment: "Eat her, then eat each other..." or "Kill all the ones in the crater"?)
While the other was creepier, it's evil creatures doing evil things to evil creatures.
The latter is more evil, as it's evil creatures doing evil things to (mostly non-evil creatures).
Yeah, gotta agree. Redcloak's example is more gruesome, but Tarquin's is probably more dastardly.
But there is a new one, so you were right for the wrong reasons!
Sweet!
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Point of order here Sara.
The discussion is not accurately characterized as an "alignment debate." The issue being discussed is the behavior of one of the characters of the Order of the Stick and whether her killing of a rival in cold blood was appropriate due to her alignment.
Please explain to me how discussing the behavior of a character in Order of the Stick is not appropriate conversation for a thread on Order of the Stick.
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Maybe it's just me but does anyone else think Tarquin has just completly lost the plot?That's kinda the point. He never had the plot. He thought the whole thing revolved around him, which is why he thinks Elan should be the primary hero instead of Roy. He doesn't realize that dealing with him was never more than a side quest for the Order.
Kind’a drives home the size of his ego, though. Epic-level evil lich sorcerer out to blow up the entire universe? Nope, he’s nothing but a trifling side-quest - the real plot is all about me, my family, and my relationship with my son(s).
Which just goes to show that Tarquin’s not just evil and genre-savvy, he’s also an egomaniacal ass.
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... y’know, at this point I’m beginning to think that that might be the point that Rich is trying to make. Tarquin’s savvy has wrapped around itself and blinkered him to the truth of the situation: he’s so (Dangerously) Genre-Savvy that it’s become a form of Genre Blindness!
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Nope, he’s nothing but a trifling side-quest - the real plot is all about me, my family, and my relationship with my son(s)
Holy crap! Tarquin took out TV Tropes! I hope Elan has it all memorized. ;)
Hm. I wonder...
Is something going to come through that conveniently placed purple rift?
Tarquin's insistence on genre convention is endearing, but it's fun to see how rapidly it crosses the line into creepy puppet-mastery. As with Redcloak, if he doesn't do something unforgivable now and then, sympathetic fans might forget that he's a bad, bad man...
(Quick: Which one was a more hideous moment: "Eat her, then eat each other..." or "Kill all the ones in the crater"?)
Dude, all I'm going to say is that I'm impressed with your cojones posting this immediately after...
Anyone remember that weird eye that showed up in strip #698? That was more than 200 comics ago and we still haven't found out. I thought it was Girard at the time but he was dead long before then.
It was drizzt spying on them i think. its the same color as his other magic, and nale knew they were in the middle of the dessert a few days before.
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Tarquin is the most savvy character in OotS history. If it came down to him vs. Xykon, I wouldn't count Tarquin out.I reckon once Xykon hears about him being called a 'sub-boss', he'll teleport over to Tarquin's room, kill him, then teleport back and continue the fight with the OOTS.
A fitting death, I'd imagine.
He's also cocky and not expecting anything like that. He thinks of Xykon as a sub-boss! He may be very genre savvy, but he's blind as to his actual importance in the world.
Also, mechanically, he's a high level fighter vs an epic level sorcerer.
Tarquin might just be epic level himself. The PCs are high level, and he took them on by himself outside the pyramid, and did well enough to force a retreat. Still, my money's still on Xykon if that fight ever did happen.
And it would be justice for it to happen off panel!
Of course, this is all based on the incorrect assumption that Xykon currently knows or cares that Tarquin even exists.
True. He didn't even remember who his enemies were when he saw them again.
Of course, this is all based on the incorrect assumption that Xykon currently knows or cares that Tarquin even exists.True. He didn't even remember who his enemies were when he saw them again.
I kind of thought he was trying to taunt them? Did I imagine that? I'd really thought the "I don't remember you" was an act to irritate Roy that one time. I could totally be wrong, though.
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I kind of thought he was trying to taunt them? Did I imagine that? I'd really thought the "I don't remember you" was an act to irritate Roy that one time. I could totally be wrong, though.Of course, this is all based on the incorrect assumption that Xykon currently knows or cares that Tarquin even exists.True. He didn't even remember who his enemies were when he saw them again.
It's actually a tough call. While it did irritate Roy, Xykon does seem like the absent minded professor type when it comes to remembering people. When he and Roy first met, back in the early dungeon crawling days, Xykon really didn't remember the name of the guy he'd killed that inspired Roy's dad to swear an oath to stop him.
No, I think Xykon's just that forgetful and/or disinterested in most mortals. He needed frequent prompting to remember who Dorukan was, for example.
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And Tarquin keeps on being himself.
OMG !!! Didn't see that one coming.
"Careful, you're starting to sound like Nale." Tarquin classy as ever.
And Belkar does it hit right on the nail. "Daddy issues" indeed. It should even be the title for the collected book.
Ah Belkar ... :)
That weird pulsating purple gate looks more inviting every second, doesn't it ?
Also, concerning Xykon forgetting names, I guess it has something to do with low INT = poor memory.
Nice to know that Durkula has his praying for spells already organized. Does Nergal grant spells at dusk ?
Also, concerning Xykon forgetting names, I guess it has something to do with low INT = poor memory.
I'm thinking wisdom is his dump stat, hence the poor memory. Makes sense with him having Redcloak around to keep reminding him of things.
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I'm thinking wisdom is his dump stat, hence the poor memory. Makes sense with him having Redcloak around to keep reminding him of things.
Also, concerning Xykon forgetting names, I guess it has something to do with low INT = poor memory.
IIRC, in the book of evil beginnings, Xykon mentioned noticing and not caring. Which is why I think WIS is not a dump stat for him (the noticing part). Also his anger at Wizards could be reflected in keeping a low INT as a matter of pride.
AFAIK he has no such antagonism towards divine casters (and thus WIS).
I'm thinking wisdom is his dump stat, hence the poor memory. Makes sense with him having Redcloak around to keep reminding him of things.
Also, concerning Xykon forgetting names, I guess it has something to do with low INT = poor memory.
IIRC, in the book of evil beginnings, Xykon mentioned noticing and not caring. Which is why I think WIS is not a dump stat for him (the noticing part). Also his anger at Wizards could be reflected in keeping a low INT as a matter of pride.
AFAIK he has no such antagonism towards divine casters (and thus WIS).
Isn't... Xykon a lich, and thus mage? That makes him either a sorcerer or wizard, I guess, but I don't recall if it was ever established one way or the other. Anyone?
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Sorcerer. He's referred to as such several times throughout the comic. The only specific example I can think of right now is when O'Chul gives Hinjo his gathered documentation of Xykon's spell list - "gathered one saving throw at a time" - he wouldn't be able to do that with a wizard, since their spellbook would be much more expansive than the spells they cast day to day. (Though a list of "most commonly memorized spells" would be equally useful, that's not the terminology O'Chul used.)
Also you can be a divine caster lich. The mythic lich in PF's own book is a cleric, for one example. And there were several cleric liches back in various 3.5 products.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I think one of the things Tarquin misses is that this isn't his story, and it's starting to blind him. It's the Order's story. It does fit well with how megalomaniacal villains operate in a tropeish sense, and yet Tarquin can't seem to see that either. It's both ironic and fitting at the same time.
Also I think this sets up a nice statement on the narrative of this whole thing. While it might use a lot of table top RPG elements it's still in the end it's own plot and is it's own story. While Tarquin might believe that it's possible to go to the next inn and get whole new adventurers we know that's quite impossible now. It would alter the very element of what the entire thing is about so it's quite impossible to replace Rory, Durkon, Elan, Haley, Belker, V, and the rest. Without them there is no story any more because they are the story. Without the group the whole thing is now meaningless.
This reminded me of reading the DUNE series by Frank Herbert. I hadn't read them until about 5 years ago when a friend lent them to me, though I was familiar with the general story of the first novel from having seen the 1984 movie and the SciFi miniseries, but in any case I read the first three books and really enjoyed them.
Then I started in on God-Emperor of Dune, which has a time-skip of several THOUSAND years. Not only is every character you knew and/or cared about from the first three books long dead (with the exception of two, and those two being radically changed individuals from what they used to be), but the entire universe has changed. Almost everything is different. There are evolutionary versions of some of the old tropes of the Dune-iverse, but really pretty thin threads.
Maybe it got better later on, but I gave up on the book about a hundred pages in. The characters and setting I enjoyed were gone. This was an entirely new book, and one it turned out I wasn't very interested in reading.
Digression over. :)
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Isn't... Xykon a lich, and thus mage? That makes him either a sorcerer or wizard, I guess, but I don't recall if it was ever established one way or the other. Anyone?
It is in the book of origins for the bad guys (Start of Darkness ?).
He is a sorcerer and gets murderously angry at the scorn and condescension that the very first wizard he meets has towards sorcerers. When he kills Dorukan in that same book, he has some of the best lines for playing a sorcerer that I ever read.
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This reminded me of reading the DUNE series by Frank Herbert. I hadn't read them until about 5 years ago when a friend lent them to me, though I was familiar with the general story of the first novel from having seen the 1984 movie and the SciFi miniseries, but in any case I read the first three books and really enjoyed them.
Then I started in on God-Emperor of Dune, which has a time-skip of several THOUSAND years. Not only is every character you knew and/or cared about from the first three books long dead (with the exception of two, and those two being radically changed individuals from what they used to be), but the entire universe has changed. Almost everything is different. There are evolutionary versions of some of the old tropes of the Dune-iverse, but really pretty thin threads.
Maybe it got better later on, but I gave up on the book about a hundred pages in. The characters and setting I enjoyed were gone. This was an entirely new book, and one it turned out I wasn't very interested in reading.
Digression over. :)
IMO, in addition to being a vastly different time (and thus universe), the writing style of the God-Emperor is very different from the previous books. Later books are different from them also, but tend to go back closer to the style of the first books, even after the universe has greatly changed once again.
It is something I appreciate in both Herbert and Tolkien's production that they could write books in differing styles.
Isn't... Xykon a lich, and thus mage? That makes him either a sorcerer or wizard, I guess, but I don't recall if it was ever established one way or the other. Anyone?It is in the book of origins for the bad guys (Start of Darkness ?).
He is a sorcerer and gets murderously angry at the scorn and condescension that the very first wizard he meets has towards sorcerers. When he kills Dorukan in that same book, he has some of the best lines for playing a sorcerer that I ever read.
Share? In spoiler if needed? His "Power equals power" speech to Vaarsuvius is pretty good but I'm curious how this measures up.
Isn't... Xykon a lich, and thus mage? That makes him either a sorcerer or wizard, I guess, but I don't recall if it was ever established one way or the other. Anyone?It is in the book of origins for the bad guys (Start of Darkness ?).
He is a sorcerer and gets murderously angry at the scorn and condescension that the very first wizard he meets has towards sorcerers. When he kills Dorukan in that same book, he has some of the best lines for playing a sorcerer that I ever read.
Suddenly between this and Orthos' post, I understand him - and his mien - better. It makes sense that he is the way he is. Neat!
(I'd been incorrectly thinking of him as a wizard this whole time. Sorcerer makes so much more sense.)And yeah... I could see a sorcerer being really irked by wizards in general. It wouldn't really matter what his dump stat was, he would tend not to like people like wizards lording it up over him.
Reference Divine Liches: I... don't ever recall that, actually. I recall one goblin lich who was an adapt, but they're both arcane and divine. And the only liches I recall that had divine magic also had arcane.
Still, looking at the requirements, it's merely caster level 11 and not "arcane caster" or anything like that, so there certainly could be plenty that I've just forgotten. Thanks!
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Still need to roll that antipaladin lich BBEG to mess with my players.
"Why won't this death knight stay dead?!"
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His "Power equals power" speech to Vaarsuvius is pretty good but I'm curious how this measures up.
-You know what really gets under my skin? Proverbially, of course. <Energy Drain>
-People think I'm stupid. Becuase I'm not a wizard. Because I get bored easily. Becuase I have no interest in strategy or tatics or contingency planning.
<Energy Drain>
-But see, I've learned a lot over the years since I died. A lot more than I learned during my life. And now I see that planning doesn't matter. Strategy doesn't matter.
-Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide.
<Energy Drain>
-In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tatics can succeed. All I need to do is keep smacking you with Energy Drains and soon you won't be able to cast any of your fancy spells at all.
<Energy Drain>
-Becuase yes, I am a sorceror - and this magic is in my bones, not cribbed off of "Magic for Dummies." And I can keep casting the same friggin' spell at you until you roll over and die.
-You can have your finely-crafted watch - give me the sledgehammer to the face any day.
<Energy Drain!>
*Dorukan falls over dead*
-Damn, that felt good.
It's a pretty good speech. Although Rich has said it isn't critcal to reading the daily strip, I would recommend you read Start of Drakness if you can pick it up. It gives you a lot more detail on Xykon and Redcloak that's interesting to understanding what they are doing.
It also made me realize that Elan's right in pointing out to Tarquin just how much he doesn't know about what's going on.
One of the downfalls of very smart and wise people, even genre savvy people, if they aren't careful, is that sometimes because of their wits they lose the ability to step back and say to themselves "I could be wrong".
In my personal life I've taken to calling this 'smartest person in the room syndrome' & it is likely one of the biggest reasons why my ex & I still can't stand each other. I would say it is much more an Intelligence thing rather than a Wisdom thing. Actually I would argue that high Wisdom in general precludes it, but that could simply be my interpretation of the difference between Wisdom & Intelligence.