New Order of the Stick Strip Up


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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Drejk wrote:

Does not look like glabrezu to me...

Did you meant gelugon?

Still not seem quite right... Someone on this thread identified it as something else a few pages ago.

Glabrezu have pincers (more prominent in depictions such as this, which is what made me think of glabrezu, but the head is not right.

But yes, the others have pointed out it must be a piscoloth.


I will admit that that Durkula's actions have caught me by surprise. As I said before, I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is, but if I were in a game and a recently vamped cleric was acting like Durkula, I'd definitely feel like there was a bit of GM fiat going on with the explicit purpose of saving the party's collective asses.

I have no idea how long the greater protection spell lasts, but it would seem that Durkula would eventually need to address his exposed condition, after all even if it lasts 24 hours, that's a big desert and another day is coming.

At this point it seems Durkula could face down the sand elemental on his own, and he seems inclined to save the party so that's probably how this particular story arc will end up.

So that brings us back to V and how he/she will be reunited with the party.


Oh snap!

That was cold.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is...

When the comic started, it was explicitly D&D 3.5. I don't think that has changed.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I will admit that that Durkula's actions have caught me by surprise. As I said before, I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is, but if I were in a game and a recently vamped cleric was acting like Durkula, I'd definitely feel like there was a bit of GM fiat going on with the explicit purpose of saving the party's collective asses.

I think Rich is still using the 3.5 rules as his guidelines. And Rich certainly isn't beyond GM fiat; he's mentioned in several messages on his site that the story always comes first over any strict adherence to game rules.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I have no idea how long the greater protection spell lasts, but it would seem that Durkula would eventually need to address his exposed condition, after all even if it lasts 24 hours, that's a big desert and another day is coming.

Durkon knows that the protection from sunlight spell is in Malack's staff, so he should be able to recast it as needed using that assuming it has enough charges left. And Malack ordering him to recover the staff to allow him to cast it after his was dispelled tells me it did indeed have charges.


A Ninja wrote:
It took me a bit to remember that Clerics can spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict wounds. However the spell came out as Inflict even though he meant to use Cure, interesting bit of theories behind his spellcasting.

I took it that he DID cast a cure spell, but his touch drained enough levels to knock Roy the f*** out.

Shadow Lodge

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Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I will admit that that Durkula's actions have caught me by surprise. As I said before, I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is, but if I were in a game and a recently vamped cleric was acting like Durkula, I'd definitely feel like there was a bit of GM fiat going on with the explicit purpose of saving the party's collective asses.

Alignment changes to any Evil, no reason he wouldn't remain Lawful, so he's still LE, and with his free will returned he regains his former memories; he's aware of the threat of the Snarl, the party's quest, and most importantly that the Order are his allies (if not friends now) and they already have a habit of harboring an Evil-aligned character who is willing to cooperate with their goals for the sake of the greater good.

It's in his best interest to keep the Order alive - though that term may now have different implications - and continue their mission, so I don't see what about his recent turn of behavior is out of line with his current status. Could you clarify?

Quote:
I have no idea how long the greater protection spell lasts, but it would seem that Durkula would eventually need to address his exposed condition, after all even if it lasts 24 hours, that's a big desert and another day is coming.

I believe it's a 24-hour duration. More importantly though, Malack said the staff contains castings of it. Durkon can just plop one charge (or however many it costs) each day onto himself so long as he doesn't lose the staff.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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I'd actually say "player fiat" more than GM fiat. If we are presuming this story is representing a game being played at the table by an unseen GM and players, Durkon's player probably is still a PC and still wants to be a member of the party. Finally freed from domination, the player would try to work his vastly altered character's story so that it makes sense for Durkon to continue to help them, and that's not really hard or contrived to conceive of -- after all, the world is still in danger, as Durkon points out. Durkon has no desire to see the end of the world, because it would be his own end, and it would also be a destruction of order, which Durkon, being lawful, still has interests in protecting. Only a rare and frankly boring and cowardly sort of evil wants to destroy the world; a far more admirable evil wants to preserve it so he can have his evil way with it.

Likewise, as he points out, he has at least every reason to be there that Belkar does. Belkar, likewise, probably has little interest in letting the world be destroyed, it means there would be no more people left to stab. :)

And Durkon has Malack's staff, which the dialogue took great pains to be crystal clear that it contains the spell, so I'm not worried about him maintaining the protection (unless of course he loses the staff).


Marigold Malachite wrote:
A Ninja wrote:
It took me a bit to remember that Clerics can spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict wounds. However the spell came out as Inflict even though he meant to use Cure, interesting bit of theories behind his spellcasting.
I took it that he DID cast a cure spell, but his touch drained enough levels to knock Roy the f*** out.

That's how I took it at first, but I saw a post where Rich confirmed that it was Durkon not realizing his spontaneous spell conversion was now inflict instead of cure, hence the title of the strip Reverse Polarity.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I will admit that that Durkula's actions have caught me by surprise. As I said before, I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is, but if I were in a game and a recently vamped cleric was acting like Durkula, I'd definitely feel like there was a bit of GM fiat going on with the explicit purpose of saving the party's collective asses.

Aside from change the alignment to obligatory evil there is no enforced personality change. Of course such traumatic event could explain lots of changes in the subject's behavior but it is not automatic.

Quote:
I have no idea how long the greater protection spell lasts, but it would seem that Durkula would eventually need to address his exposed condition, after all even if it lasts 24 hours, that's a big desert and another day is coming.

Malack's staff explicitly contains the spell. We don't know how many charges are left within, however (at least one or more were spent to accelerate Durkon's transformation). Because it's 3.5 and not Pathfinder the staff has more charges when created but Durkon won't be able to recharge it easily.


markofbane wrote:
Marigold Malachite wrote:
A Ninja wrote:
It took me a bit to remember that Clerics can spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict wounds. However the spell came out as Inflict even though he meant to use Cure, interesting bit of theories behind his spellcasting.
I took it that he DID cast a cure spell, but his touch drained enough levels to knock Roy the f*** out.
That's how I took it at first, but I saw a post where Rich confirmed that it was Durkon not realizing his spontaneous spell conversion was now inflict instead of cure, hence the title of the strip Reverse Polarity.

I suspected that from start because energy drain has different color of visual effect. I don't remember what color cloud was used for inflict wounds spells, though.

Shadow Lodge

Drejk wrote:
markofbane wrote:
Marigold Malachite wrote:
A Ninja wrote:
It took me a bit to remember that Clerics can spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict wounds. However the spell came out as Inflict even though he meant to use Cure, interesting bit of theories behind his spellcasting.
I took it that he DID cast a cure spell, but his touch drained enough levels to knock Roy the f*** out.
That's how I took it at first, but I saw a post where Rich confirmed that it was Durkon not realizing his spontaneous spell conversion was now inflict instead of cure, hence the title of the strip Reverse Polarity.
I suspected that from start because energy drain has different color of visual effect. I don't remember what color cloud was used for inflict wounds spells, though.

That same red color that Durkon's using. It's the same color as the aura for pretty much any spell Redcloak has ever cast. We've seen him toss out lots of inflict and harm.

I just always took it more as "good/neutral casters have blue magic, evil casters have red".


markofbane wrote:
Marigold Malachite wrote:
A Ninja wrote:
It took me a bit to remember that Clerics can spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict wounds. However the spell came out as Inflict even though he meant to use Cure, interesting bit of theories behind his spellcasting.
I took it that he DID cast a cure spell, but his touch drained enough levels to knock Roy the f*** out.
That's how I took it at first, but I saw a post where Rich confirmed that it was Durkon not realizing his spontaneous spell conversion was now inflict instead of cure, hence the title of the strip Reverse Polarity.

Ahhhh. Good point.

Presumably Thor is LN, so Durkon would still be within 1 step - because wasn't the rule in 3.5 that he would lose all his Cleric levels? Or would an Atonement work, I wonder?

Shadow Lodge

He would keep the levels, just lose all spellcasting ability, if he moved too far away from his deity's alignment. Fighter-without-Bonus-Feats and with 3/4 BAB and no martial proficiency on top of it. Rogue-without-Sneak-Attack-or-Skills. Atonement would get him into the good graces of a new deity that was within one step of his new alignment if his old deity was not; it would not return him to being LG, nor return his casting if his deity was out of line for his current alignment until he became LG (or other appropriate align) again.

Either Thor is LN, or Loki or Hel or some other appropriate deity... possibly even Nergal... picked up his casting on the fly.


In 3.5, a cleric does not have to have a deity to have clerical powers.

"If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies."

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Well, there go my dreams of seeing a +2 grill of blingness.


Yeah, I am aware that the staff contains the greater protection spell (after all, I stated that myself a few pages ago). It's still a BIG DESERT and Durkula may or may not be able to recharge the staff. Do we know if Durkon could cast spells as high as Malack?

Yeah, good reminder about the 3.5 vs PF vampirization rules. Truth is I'm just as fuzzy about the 3.5 vampire rules. Vampires have never really been a big part of any games I played in 3.5.

Also good point about player fiat vs GM fiat, that's actually pretty realistic from a game play perspective if the player continues to play the vamped cleric.

Heh, if Durkula simply rejoins the OOTS, then we have the prospect of Durkula and Belkar both needing to carry lead sheets...

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Well, in Deities and Demigods 3.x, Thor is Chaotic Good. I presume Rich must be using his own alignment for Thor and/or his cleric deities, because as written, Durkon could never have actually been his servant at all (cleric alignments in his entry are explicitly listed as CG, CN, and NG).

FWIW, I'd vote for Hel having taken him up.

As for the staff, this is where I'd abandon mechanics, per se, and presume he has however many charges the plot needs him to have (infinite, if the sun needs to not be a problem, or just enough minus one for when it has to become an obstacle).


DeathQuaker wrote:

Well, in Deities and Demigods 3.x, Thor is Chaotic Good. I presume Rich must be using his own alignment for Thor and/or his cleric deities, because as written, Durkon could never have actually been his servant at all (cleric alignments in his entry are explicitly listed as CG, CN, and NG).

FWIW, I'd vote for Hel having taken him up.

As for the staff, this is where I'd abandon mechanics, per se, and presume he has however many charges the plot needs him to have (infinite, if the sun needs to not be a problem, or just enough minus one for when it has to become an obstacle).

Or he goes through a character arc where he learns the secrets of the staff through studying it can can then prepare the spell himself. Then it doesn't need nearly as many charges.


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To quote another evil vampire that helped stop a plot to destroy the world: "We like to talk big, vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' It's just tough guy talk. Strut round with your friends over a pint of blood... the truth is I like this world. You've got dog racing. Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here." --Spike

Silver Crusade

Shadowborn wrote:

To quote another evil vampire that helped stop a plot to destroy the world: "We like to talk big, vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' It's just tough guy talk. Strut round with your friends over a pint of blood... the truth is I like this world. You've got dog racing. Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here." --Spike

Yup. I love that show. Especially seasons 2 and 3.

I just keep waiting for V to pop back in amid all this chaos. I can just see one of the other PCs asking "Where the hell have you been?" and V or his raven answering with "That's a better guess than you might expect."

Shadow Lodge

markofbane wrote:

In 3.5, a cleric does not have to have a deity to have clerical powers.

"If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies."

That's technically still true in PF, just not on Golarion, which requires clerics to have patron deities. FR was the same way - a setting that required deific sponsoring for clerics, though the ruleset otherwise allowed them to go without.

Have we seen any godless clerics in OOTS? I don't recall any - the clerics working with the Paladins worship their pantheon, Redcloak and the hobgoblin clerics worship the Dark One, Malack worshiped Nergal. The only cleric thus far that we don't know the patron of - at least off the top of my head - was Tsuchiko, unless a deity was listed for her that I forgot.

In either case, unless Thor allows for LE clerics, he'd lose his powers for moving out of alignment with him, and (I think) still need an Atonement to get them back - even if he just becomes a godless cleric, and is just Atoning to his own new thelogical mindset.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Maybe Durkon will also receive a "happy ending" now that he is more compatible in terms of alignment and religion with his original evil opposite...


Orthos wrote:
markofbane wrote:

In 3.5, a cleric does not have to have a deity to have clerical powers.

"If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies."

That's technically still true in PF, just not on Golarion, which requires clerics to have patron deities. FR was the same way - a setting that required deific sponsoring for clerics, though the ruleset otherwise allowed them to go without.

Have we seen any godless clerics in OOTS? I don't recall any - the clerics working with the Paladins worship their pantheon, Redcloak and the hobgoblin clerics worship the Dark One, Malack worshiped Nergal. The only cleric thus far that we don't know the patron of - at least off the top of my head - was Tsuchiko, unless a deity was listed for her that I forgot.

In either case, unless Thor allows for LE clerics, he'd lose his powers for moving out of alignment with him, and (I think) still need an Atonement to get them back - even if he just becomes a godless cleric, and is just Atoning to his own new thelogical mindset.

This really depends. There aren't rules in 3.5 as far as I know for it, but clerics could switch dieties or have their powers given to them by ones they don't worship in 2nd ed. This was a big plot point in at least one of the campaigns. It was left up to the GM, and as far as I know there is nothing addressing the issue in 3rd.

Also, we don't know that Thor is good in this setting, though from his depictions, I am suprized Durkon can be lawful.

Shadow Lodge

He might have been NG. That would allow LG, but imply that he has a new patron (or no patron) now.

Shadow Lodge

Sebastian wrote:


Maybe Durkon will also receive a "happy ending" now that he is more compatible in terms of alignment and religion with his original evil opposite...

We never did find out what happened to her did we? I don't think it ever showed her die like it did the Linear Guild kobolds, or get arrested like the gnome druid.


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DeathQuaker wrote:

Well, in Deities and Demigods 3.x, Thor is Chaotic Good. I presume Rich must be using his own alignment for Thor and/or his cleric deities, because as written, Durkon could never have actually been his servant at all (cleric alignments in his entry are explicitly listed as CG, CN, and NG).

FWIW, I'd vote for Hel having taken him up.

As for the staff, this is where I'd abandon mechanics, per se, and presume he has however many charges the plot needs him to have (infinite, if the sun needs to not be a problem, or just enough minus one for when it has to become an obstacle).

Right after the Dungeon Of Durokan Arc, Elan was talkign with the priest about the pantheon set up where the gods can all draw power off of their collective worship. That's probably easing Durkons Transition.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
bugleyman wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is...
When the comic started, it was explicitly D&D 3.5. I don't think that has changed.

Even though the website shows page 1 as the start of the comic, there were several one-shot panels beforehand. These panels were mostly 3 panel strips and full of jokes. These came out during the 3.0 era. Several strips later 3.5 came out and Rich decided to make a joke about upgrading to 3.5.

The first panels include how Roy was trying to name the group and Elan pointed to a stick and named the group "Order of the Stick." The team was also approaching Xykon's castle in these panels.

I do not know why they are not on the web site.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Charles Scholz wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
I don't know enough about vampirization in PF to know how "realistic" this is...
When the comic started, it was explicitly D&D 3.5. I don't think that has changed.

Even though the website shows page 1 as the start of the comic, there were several one-shot panels beforehand. These panels were mostly 3 panel strips and full of jokes. These came out during the 3.0 era. Several strips later 3.5 came out and Rich decided to make a joke about upgrading to 3.5.

The first panels include how Roy was trying to name the group and Elan pointed to a stick and named the group "Order of the Stick." The team was also approaching Xykon's castle in these panels.

I do not know why they are not on the web site.

I don't believe those strips were created or released prior to the 3.5 conversion joke strips (which are technically the first strips); they were created for and included in the first OotS compilation (which is also why they aren't available electronically).

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I read Order of the stick on the web long before the books came out, and I do remember them on the web. Rich started the comic as just a series of self contained one shot jokes about gaming. It was only later after it grew a following that he turned it into a story.


Charles Scholz wrote:
The first panels include how Roy was trying to name the group and Elan pointed to a stick and named the group "Order of the Stick." The team was also approaching Xykon's castle in these panels.

The specific strips with the naming of the group and what not were made as book bonuses, and were not released anywhere else. Rich says as much in the introduction to the book.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I stand corrected.


I recall that the ones that were originally printed in Dragon magazine (those one off comics Charles referred to) were reprinted in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails. We also know Rich didn't take the comic on into 4th Edition D&D because there are some bonus comics in there skewering some of the soft spots of that edition. That book was all material not published on his website.


Yep - the Dragon comics ran from 2005 to 2007 (when Dragon got shut down).

OotS the main comic launched way way back in September 2003... man, almost ten years!


Now I feel *really* old. :P

Grand Lodge

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Bah. I can think of other things that make me feel old.


On the question of Durkon's alignment and divinity...

While I think BigNorseWolf pretty solidly identified the strip in question (awesome find, by the way, I'd forgotten about that), the actual rules for divinity and divinely powered worshipers varies from world to world... and possibly from pantheon to pantheon, too.

We already know that Azure City has a different pantheon with slightly different rules than the Norse pantheon that Durkon worships.

In Eberron, it didn't matter how far away your alignment strayed from that of your god... as long as you truly, fervently worshiped them (and believed that you were enacting their will), you still got divine spells. Further, instead of worshiping a singular deity, you could also worship the whole pantheon. (The problem with using this as a guide, of course, is that Eberron also allowed deity-less clerics to exist, although insisted that they were excessively rare.)

In Forgotten Realms and Golarion (which was 3.5 for a while) you had to have a singular divine patron... unless you were outside of Faerun, in which case it becomes a little bit "iffier" (it's possible that the Hands of Adama or the Mulhorandi pantheons, for example, was worshiped as a collective instead of or in addition to individual worship... I may be wrong on this, so, feel free to correct me). Continuing in FR, I've no idea how the Maztecans or Kara-turans did anything, but it seemed excessively different to me; and the Hathrans always seemed to have a "three goddess pantheon" deal going on where worship of any would suffice (again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here - my FR and the Core FR might have drifted over time).

In any case, we're not entirely sure of the rules for divinity in OotS.

Clearly Elan's worship, as well as the worship of the tribe of orcs, enabled Banjo to perform minor miracles (such as the really weak thunderbolt).

Also, I've been rather solidly convinced that alignment doesn't really matter that in the Norse Pantheon, at least: Thor's bent and outright broken rules for Durkon in the past, and has had absolutely no difficulty or even minor hesitation in doing so (actively correcting his angels when they tried to tell him something "doesn't work that way"). I've always believed that Thor was CG while Durkon was LG.

EDIT:

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Bah. I can think of other things that make me feel old.

Like the fact that my son is now two years old as of two days ago! He wasn't even born, when I started these forums! HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
Continuing in FR, I've no idea how the Maztecans or Kara-turans did anything, but it seemed excessively different to me;

That would be because they started out as their own settings, didn't get much traction, then got stapled onto FR as extra Faerun continents later.


Orthos wrote:
Quote:
Continuing in FR, I've no idea how the Maztecans or Kara-turans did anything, but it seemed excessively different to me;
That would be because they started out as their own settings, didn't get much traction, then got stapled onto FR as extra Faerun continents later.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten that, though I'd known it once.

I actually always thought they were pretty cool, and really liked them as part of FR and was annoyed with the the 4E just randomly "swapping them out" with... okay, I'm going to stop my would-be rant right there, because otherwise this will be off topic. Well, more off topic, with potential derail.

ANYway. Despite the fact that FR had it's own suite of pantheons, it also had different suites of pantheons elsewhere and those had their own rules.

Point being, I could see something like that happening here.

(Also, kind of sort of on-topic, I totally used Rich's home-brew world that hasn't been updated on the site in approximately forever as the basis for a 4E game that I ran it's pretty daggum sweet, even in 4E. I'm just saying.)

Shadow Lodge

Oh yeah, I liked Kara-Tur at least, I was less familiar with Matzica. I played a few Kara-Turan characters (primarily Wu, though a couple Shou) in my NWN days. Granted, they were almost always transplants over to mainland Faerun, rather than being played in their homeland, because no setting or server I was ever around was doing an actual Kara-Tur setting game, but you work with what you have.

[/tangent]


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Tacticslion wrote:
Like the fact that my son is now two years old as of two days ago! He wasn't even born, when I started these forums! HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!

My son started high school today. High school!

Liberty's Edge

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bugleyman wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Like the fact that my son is now two years old as of two days ago! He wasn't even born, when I started these forums! HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!
My son started high school today. High school!

Pft. My son finished high school last May. At least he's going to take his prerequisites at the local junior college, so my gaming budget is safe for at least the next year.


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Let's see... my grand-niece just posted on FB that she's pregnant...

Silver Crusade

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Today's my 40th birthday, so I was already feeling old today, before this conversation started.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Let's see... my grand-niece just posted on FB that she's pregnant...

OK, you got me. Both of my grand-nieces still have single-digit ages.

ETA for Fromper: Happy Birthday!


Fromper wrote:
Today's my 40th birthday, so I was already feeling old today, before this conversation started.

Happy birthday!

I hit 41 last week. :(

Shadow Lodge

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Don't worry, you don't look a day over 40. :)


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Fromper wrote:
Today's my 40th birthday, so I was already feeling old today, before this conversation started.

Wow. I remember 40....

... dang whippersnappers....

Sovereign Court

Fromper wrote:
Today's my 40th birthday, so I was already feeling old today, before this conversation started.

Happy birthday, ya wee pup!

And remember, don't stress any birthday that is not evenly divisible into a century.


Yeah, Kara-Tur was great, as I recall.

Fromper wrote:
Today's my 40th birthday, so I was already feeling old today, before this conversation started.

Happy Birthday!

Here, have a present!

Your Present!:
It's EXPLODING RUNES

There! Now you don't have to feel old!

heheh:
because you're dead*!

*:
I hope not. Really, by 40, you should have more hit points that that.

:)

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