A challenge for rogue / monk haters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

1 to 50 of 55 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Dark Archive

There seems to be a fair amount of hate towards these two classes, which seems to stem from them not being “optimal” now I’ve been following those threads with some interest, apparently what was done in the APG wasn’t enough, so I challenge you, make a class variant/arch type that would be balanced yet fulfil with your desire to be “optimal”. Go on I challenge you!

On a side note anyone who thinks barbarians, cavaliers, bards, ect aren’t optimal, are also welcomed to participate on this challenge…

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

BAM!

:)


Nice job, there.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

Now if only you'd gotten off you're ass and finished that 'Ninja/Assassin' base class you could have presented that as well :P


TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

That does indeed appear to be a solid piece of work. Nicely done sir!


Done.

Rogue: Factotum

Monk: Swordsage or Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior with Tashalatora.


The monk all depends if you can get your hands on a guided weapon. If yes, then the Zen Archer can be lethal. I thought that was the only optimal monk build, but a dwarven drunken master - weapon adept with a guided weapon is actually quite powerful.


I have to say I didnt hate the monk in the core(I realize no one agrees).

But the sheer versatility a monk has based on TOZ's build is sweet as hell.

bravo sir.


I have much love for the class but I dont think it got the same revamp that paladin did
My changes to monk

Add "monk" descriptor to short spear/spear so that they are flurry-able.

Bonus feats: As in the core write up the prereq's do not need to be met to take these.

add all "improved" CM feats to the monk list at 1st level
add all "greater" CM feats to the monk list at level 6
add "x maneuver" strike feats from the APG to the monk list at 10 (tripping strike, disarming strike, etc.)

lvl 1
Strike With No Thought(EX): A Monk may add 1 pt of his wisdom modifier per level to his to hit, CMB, and damage when using unarmed strikes or "monk" weapons. The monk may also add his full wisdom modifier to his CMD begining at first level(yes they get to double dip wisdom to CMD).

Lvl 7
Strike of No Forms: for each Ki point expended the monk may make an additional attack using his flurry of blows iteration. The maximum number of attacks per round would be total possible with a flurry of blows (no drunken monks blowing 10 ki for 11 attacks in one turn)

revised unarmed combat damage table

level-(unarmed damage)-(threat/mult)
1 --------- d6 ----------- 20x2
2 --------- d6 ----------- 20x2
3 --------- d6 ----------- 20x2
4 --------- d8 ----------- 20x2
5 --------- d8 --------- 19-20x2
6 --------- d8 --------- 19-20x2
7 --------- d8 --------- 19-20x2
8 --------- d8 --------- 19-20x2
9 -------- d10 --------- 19-20x2
10 ------- d10 --------- 18-20x2
11 ------- d10 --------- 18-20x2
12 ------- d10 --------- 18-20x2
13 ------- d10 --------- 18-20x2
14 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x2
15 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x3
16 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x3
17 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x3
18 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x3
19 ------- 2d8 --------- 18-20x3
20 ------- 2d8 --------- 18-20x3


TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

This is nice. Really nice.

Why would anyone play a fighter with this class available?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

This is nice. Really nice.

Why would anyone play a fighter with this class available?

Because the Fighter looks like THIS. :)

Full disclosure, these are the work of Kirth Gersen, a compatriot of mine on the boards. This was the first draft, and he is currently working on the second. I'll be putting them up when he finishes them and passes them on to me.

Dragonsong, you've got some interesting ideas there. I especially like the revised damage progression.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

This is nice. Really nice.

Why would anyone play a fighter with this class available?

Because the Fighter looks like THIS. :)

Full disclosure, these are the work of Kirth Gersen, a compatriot of mine on the boards. This was the first draft, and he is currently working on the second. I'll be putting them up when he finishes them and passes them on to me.

Dragonsong, you've got some interesting ideas there. I especially like the revised damage progression.

Why all good saves?


TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

That's an outstanding rewrite of the monk!

I like the reinterpretation of Ki into spells, keeping the standard game mechanic for mystical powers rather than introducing a new one is great.

I think a couple of the sutras are too powerful, and I'd prefer a spell list from Pathfinder.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dragonsong, you've got some interesting ideas there. I especially like the revised damage progression.

Thanks I had been pondering that for a while and then cherry picked my favorite options/alternatives from the "Monk hate" thread suggestions.

I wanted to try and go as close to core book as I want to tweak the CASTERS ARe teh Mostest WIN EVAR! supposed disparity in a different way.

I want casters to make to hit rolls for all spells.

Please be aware I do not want to make this another "casters vs melee" thread but that thought, about spells not auto hitting, has shaped how I sandbox rules.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

BAM!

:)

You had me at d10 Hit Die and full BAB. Nicely done.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:
Why all good saves?

Kirth is a 1E grognard, so it just seemed natural. :)

Blueluck wrote:


I think a couple of the sutras are too powerful, and I'd prefer a spell list from Pathfinder.

Part of the design goal was to be modular, allowing the DM to add and remove sutras and powers as he saw fit.

Dark Archive

while i like the update, that isn't quite what i had in mind... namely thats a complete rehash of the monk class and not an archtype of the monk... *shrugs*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

But it IS a variant! :)


ulgulanoth wrote:
There seems to be a fair amount of hate towards these two classes, which seems to stem from them not being “optimal” now I’ve been following those threads with some interest, apparently what was done in the APG wasn’t enough, so I challenge you, make a class variant/arch type that would be balanced yet fulfil with your desire to be “optimal”. Go on I challenge you!

Bolded where you asked for exactly what you have been given

If you find the fundamental construction of the class to be in error then no archtype alone will fix it.

edit: TOZ ninja in full effect

Dark Archive

that be true

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Dragonsong wrote:
edit: TOZ ninja in full effect

WOPAH!

Another project I need to get back to work on... :)


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
edit: TOZ ninja in full effect

WOPAH!

Another project I need to get back to work on... :)

At first I was :/

then I was :)

My co-workers wanted to know what was so funny when i busted out laughing


Dragonsong wrote:
I want casters to make to hit rolls for all spells.

My ideal version of D&D/Pathfinder would do away with saving throws and adopt Will, Reflex, and Fortitude defenses against which casters roll 1d20+bonuses, just like a to-hit roll. The math stays the same, but the person acting is always the person rolling the die. The game gets faster and more intuitive.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Dragonsong wrote:
15 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x3

Never a good idea to mix multi and increased threat.


James Risner wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
15 ------- 2d6 --------- 18-20x3
Never a good idea to mix multi and increased threat.

You mean like the falcata? Or the fighter capstone? And, as the unarmed attacks cannot be 2hd wielded there is less abuse with power attack.

Also, as most people universally complain that the Monk is perma-weak class I figured it was a nice way to disabuse that assumption, and makes them distinctive from a fighter who opts for an unarmed build it keeps the class unique. But i will give it may not need to be combined wiht a potential pounce like option i suggested.


Ok...I'm gonna playtest this monk variation in an upcomming game session.

I like it. ALOT.


Kryzbyn wrote:

Ok...I'm gonna playtest this monk variation in an upcomming game session.

I like it. ALOT.

Please keep us informed I would love to see how the variant TOZ brought to the table plays.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I would love some playtest reports on Dragonsong's changes too, since they are less invasive.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would love some playtest reports on Dragonsong's changes too, since they are less invasive.

Nothing says that (within some limits) we can't add some of my Peanut Butter to the Chocolate you brought.


Dragonsong wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would love some playtest reports on Dragonsong's changes too, since they are less invasive.
Nothing says that (within some limits) we can't add some of my Peanut Butter to the Chocolate you brought.

I was planning on trying both simultaneously.

EDIT: I had a homebrew class that mimic'd jedi to an extent...without formal psionic rules, this weapon wielding monk with limited Ki SLA's will fit the mold well.
He'll just be able to kick ass unarmed too ;)

Scarab Sages

Too much monk love!

I think monks are legit as is.

Just voicing my experience.


Kryzbyn wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would love some playtest reports on Dragonsong's changes too, since they are less invasive.
Nothing says that (within some limits) we can't add some of my Peanut Butter to the Chocolate you brought.

I was planning on trying both simultaneously.

EDIT: I had a homebrew class that mimic'd jedi to an extent...without formal psionic rules, this weapon wielding monk with limited Ki SLA's will fit the mold well.
He'll just be able to kick ass unarmed too ;)

heheheh

Although I probably would drop the X3 crit multiplier at 15 if I made the class a full BAB/ d10 HP. I think it's a solid ability if he's still more paper-tiger than other Front Line Fighter types as his HD and raw BAB increase I would parse that feature out.


Dragonsong wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
I would love some playtest reports on Dragonsong's changes too, since they are less invasive.
Nothing says that (within some limits) we can't add some of my Peanut Butter to the Chocolate you brought.

I was planning on trying both simultaneously.

EDIT: I had a homebrew class that mimic'd jedi to an extent...without formal psionic rules, this weapon wielding monk with limited Ki SLA's will fit the mold well.
He'll just be able to kick ass unarmed too ;)

heheheh

Although I probably would drop the X3 crit multiplier at 15 if I made the class a full BAB/ d10 HP. I think it's a solid ability if he's still more paper-tiger than other Front Line Fighter types as his HD and raw BAB increase I would parse that feature out.

He's only going to be 5th level or so...but I'd move it to 20 and roll it into endcap for the monk, if he were to have a full BAB.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Full BAB is so simple I still shake my head at the hoops PF jumped through to give it in some areas and not others. I also like the idea proposed that Maneuver Training should deal unarmed strike damage on every successful maneuver. That would make monks play a lot differently than fighters.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Full BAB is so simple I still shake my head at the hoops PF jumped through to give it in some areas and not others. I also like the idea proposed that Maneuver Training should deal unarmed strike damage on every successful maneuver. That would make monks play a lot differently than fighters.

Thats a big reason why I want them to get the "tripping strike" type feats so then they can at least be having some sort of damage plus maneuvers. I do like the idea of inflicting x amount of damage when sucessfully performing a maneuver. Perhaps both: sucessful maneuver does some set amount of damage(wisdom modifier would be my first suggestion) and the crit with the feats procs a maneuver check( as this would only be available at level 10+). Two ways to get there and making the class maneuver monsters. One has lower damage output but more chances to use the maneuver the other has the added bonus of a free maneuver check on top of the damage.

Edit: In Malhavok Press' Midnight Camapaign setting the unarmed character was a Full BAB class but i think only had 2 good saves. Wish I had bought thos books from my old roommate ohh so long ago.


Dragonsong wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Full BAB is so simple I still shake my head at the hoops PF jumped through to give it in some areas and not others. I also like the idea proposed that Maneuver Training should deal unarmed strike damage on every successful maneuver. That would make monks play a lot differently than fighters.

Thats a big reason why I want them to get the "tripping strike" type feats so then they can at least be having some sort of damage plus maneuvers. I do like the idea of inflicting x amount of damage when sucessfully performing a maneuver. Perhaps both: sucessful maneuver does some set amount of damage(wisdom modifier would be my first suggestion) and the crit with the feats procs a maneuver check( as this would only be available at level 10+). Two ways to get there and making the class maneuver monsters. One has lower damage output but more chances to use the maneuver the other has the added bonus of a free maneuver check on top of the damage.

Edit: In Malhavok Press' Midnight Camapaign setting the unarmed character was a Full BAB class but i think only had 2 good saves. Wish I had bought thos books from my old roommate ohh so long ago.

Ahhh yes, the Defender. I have that book. I like the setting, too.

He had a full BAB and got extra damage as he leveled up, could take TWF...I played an Orc defender. He was a rough n tumble grappler.
Get folks in a grapple then unarmed strike/crush them to death. He was fun :P


ulgulanoth wrote:
while i like the update, that isn't quite what i had in mind... namely thats a complete rehash of the monk class and not an archtype of the monk... *shrugs*

One thing I have noted about the RPG Superstar Competition for 2011 is that one of the rounds is to design an archetype. Posters eligible to enter the competition may feel that they are shooting themselves in the foot (so-to-speak) if they post such an archetype when they could use as a potential winning entry.

Of course, I am just speculating, but I just wanted to throw it out there.

Dragonsong wrote:
In Malhavok Press' Midnight Camapaign setting the unarmed character was a Full BAB class but i think only had 2 good saves. Wish I had bought thos books from my old roommate ohh so long ago.

In actual fact, it was Fantasy Flight Games that released Midnight.

If you are looking for the OGL component of the rules, you may find it here. Speficially, the Defender Class is here.


That Monk variant looks overpowered...in comparison to the other classes anyway.


Wow...really like this one. Will push to use it in the campaign we are starting next week.

Thanks for the effort...alot of us want to do something like this, but never really get around to it.


Razz wrote:
That Monk variant looks overpowered...in comparison to the other classes anyway.

Compared to PF core non-casters? I agree. That's why that site also has revisions to said classes.


Shakor wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
In Malhavok Press' Midnight Camapaign setting the unarmed character was a Full BAB class but i think only had 2 good saves. Wish I had bought thos books from my old roommate ohh so long ago.

In actual fact, it was Fantasy Flight Games that released Midnight.

If you are looking for the OGL component of the rules, you may find it here. Speficially, the Defender Class is here.

You are right Shakor. I got the publisher right in the third party books thread and blew it here. Thankee sai for the links.

Razz which version? The TZO one, mine or both?


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Razz wrote:
That Monk variant looks overpowered...in comparison to the other classes anyway.
Compared to PF core non-casters? I agree. That's why that site also has revisions to said classes.

Agreed. I feel it's comparable to the APG stuff though...which is going to be my case when presented to my group.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Dragonsong wrote:
You mean like the falcata? Or the fighter capstone?

Did I say they were good ideas?

Doing both is the same as doing one twice in a number of cases.

So in a number of ways 19-20x3 is the same as 20x5.


James Risner wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
You mean like the falcata? Or the fighter capstone?

Did I say they were good ideas?

Doing both is the same as doing one twice in a number of cases.

So in a number of ways 19-20x3 is the same as 20x5.

Sadly the precedent has been established.

Luckily for you and 99% of the pathfinder players/GM's nothing in this thread is canon. I merely present an alternative as was requested by the thread

I will gladly entertain other suggestions or feedback, if you wish to make any. But your snark will no longer be addressed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Dragonsong wrote:
nothing in this thread is canon. But your snark will no longer be addressed.

I'm aware nothing is cannon, I offered advice. No snark intended, I'm sorry you took it that way.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Man, I hate it when I get my snark twisted!


James Risner wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
nothing in this thread is canon. But your snark will no longer be addressed.
I'm aware nothing is cannon, I offered advice. No snark intended, I'm sorry you took it that way.

If I misread your intentions (as is possible) and took it the wrong way I do apologize.


Heya TOZ...
How would you modify your monk with zen archery archetype?
Just add those abilites as sutra?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Some should be sutras, some should be feats. Maybe roll similar ones together so the character isn't spending all his slots on them. I think Kirth is working on assimilating the APG options into the class as well.


I like the Monk ToZ posted quite a bit.

I'm not sure that the monk absolutely needs Paladin/Ranger equivalent spellcasting but overall I like the direction. I'd probably pare the list back to pathfinder/apg spells for my game and limit the spells to personal buffs and touch attacks but that's merely personal preference.

Guarded Attribute seems potentially overpowered (immunity to Con damage/drain- yes please) but most of the sutras seem fine. Blindsense should probably have a minimum level on it as it's a pretty potent buff and I don't like autowin vs stealth especially on 1st level characters.

Overall it simplifies the class some because let's face it situational full BAB is a really big kludge with all sorts of issues and it increases the flexibility of the class by incorporating modular instead of fixed features.

1 to 50 of 55 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / A challenge for rogue / monk haters All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.