Consequences for evil acts ...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ok, we just finished a module with a temporary DM last night and I wanted to get the community's opinion on something. I play a barbarian and my character generally does the right thing but occasionally succumbs to his more irrational side and commits what one might call an evil act.

Example: we encountered a rapist in the act so we more or less set about playing the part of the good guys and stopped the heinous act. Near the end of the short fight the rapist gave up. I then lopped off his head since I felt that my character wouldn't show mercy for such an act. The DM felt differently and there was a lightening flash and my eyes turned blood red (I gained 30' of darkvision). Two other similar acts were commited throughout the course of the adventure and I gained another 30' darkvision (60 total) and a bite attack and now my eyes no longer show white (or even black for that matter). They are now blood red.

I personally thought the DM handled it well and I suspect if I continue on this path, I will become even more gruesome looking and even more shunned.

What say you all?


I think for certain character types or certain campaigns an outward reflection of someone's alignment can be an interesting concept. That part really depends on the story, the GM, and the players. In most games there is no such physical change to represent your inner person, at least not the games I have been part of. I am interested in what drawback this has on you. It seems you have gotten a really cool character feature (red eyes) and a really powerful ability (darkvision) as a reward for turning Evil, or what your GM considers to be Evil. It seems almost as if you're being encouraged to do Evil things. I am just wondering if there is some in game penalty or punishment involved for what your GM perceives as Evil actions on your part.

Now, as far as you being Evil, I don't agree at all. In the Evil entry it talks about an attitude of killing for fun or out of a lack of compassion/concern for life. You don't seem to be doing that. From your description you killed that NPC out of a sense of justice and anger at what he was doing to another innocent person. Additionally, there is nowhere in the Evil description that says killing bad guys before their trial is Evil. It might not be Lawful, depending on the laws of that particular society, but it is not Evil. The only killing that is specifically called out as Evil is the murdering of innocent people. You didn't murder and innocent man, you executed a rapist who was caught in the act. IMO, your GM could reasonably call that a Chaotic act, but I don't feel there are any grounds for calling it an Evil act.


Does this mean you can automatically tell if people are evil by looking at their blood red eyes, and maybe horns and claws?

That makes the good guys' job a lot easier. Courts, too.

Magistrate: "Did you steal from this man?"

Thief: "No!" *grows fangs and claws*


I think that sounded like pretty rediculus DM'ing


Morain wrote:
I think that sounded like pretty rediculus DM'ing

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the type of campaign the guy is building towards. A game of heroes who are branded as monsters and struggle to try to earn the people's trust sounds like fun to me. (Also, it's entirely possible said GM has plans that require the PC in question to have darkvision, thus while he's preparing to initiate the plot, he's also giving his PC's the abilities they'll need.)

It could be ridiculous DMing, or it could be brilliant DMing. There are too many things we don't know to be able to make that judgement at this point.


Maybe he's trying to play out Fable.


Well, knowing this DM, there will most definitely be a down side to this apparent perk. I can only imagine what it is at this point. I have already been shunned by townsfolk due to my gruesome appearance and I suspect this will become integral to the plot and something of a severe handicap.

That being said, it could very well be just temporary. We don't really know where we are. All we know is that we are in a strange land that is surrounded on all sides by a cursed mist. Whenever we try to leave it chokes us, we hallucinate, and nasty shadow things try to kill us. It may well be that we are in a strange place and there are strange repercussions to various actions.

And in my opinion, it is only bad DMing if you don't have fun. This isn't the case here I can assure you.


Krallek wrote:

Well, knowing this DM, there will most definitely be a down side to this apparent perk. I can only imagine what it is at this point. I have already been shunned by townsfolk due to my gruesome appearance and I suspect this will become integral to the plot and something of a severe handicap.

That being said, it could very well be just temporary. We don't really know where we are. All we know is that we are in a strange land that is surrounded on all sides by a cursed mist. Whenever we try to leave it chokes us, we hallucinate, and nasty shadow things try to kill us. It may well be that we are in a strange place and there are strange repercussions to various actions.

And in my opinion, it is only bad DMing if you don't have fun. This isn't the case here I can assure you.

I have to ask. How is it 'a strange and mysterious land?'

Did your characters just get magically transported there somehow? I would think that, logically speaking, unless the GM explained why it was so mysterious that the characters grew up there.......

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Dungeons and Dragons meets Haibane Renmei? Sweet! :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Makes me think of the Bhaalspawn.

If it was me, this would be leading up to a big plot tangle involving evil parentage, particularly if you're the only one being affected.

Are there similarly interesting consequences coming from performing good acts?


No we were wisked off to another continent. We signed on with some sailors ... which later turned out to be essentially pirates. And we proved to be more than just cargo as we aided them in a battle. In a second battle, the captain and most of the crew were killed leaving only us and a crazy gnome to man the ship.

I believe we went off course and eventually this mist set in and more or less forced us to land and well ... here we are. We cant get past the mist and it has surrounded us on all sides. We don't know the inhabitants but as we recently saved their bacon we have come to find out that we are not the only ones who are stranded here.


Krallek wrote:

No we were wisked off to another continent. We signed on with some sailors ... which later turned out to be essentially pirates. And we proved to be more than just cargo as we aided them in a battle. In a second battle, the captain and most of the crew were killed leaving only us and a crazy gnome to man the ship.

I believe we went off course and eventually this mist set in and more or less forced us to land and well ... here we are. We cant get past the mist and it has surrounded us on all sides. We don't know the inhabitants but as we recently saved their bacon we have come to find out that we are not the only ones who are stranded here.

Okay . . . mists . . . I get it. I'm not sure I'd to it to my PCs without cluing them in however . . .


Krallek wrote:

Ok, we just finished a module with a temporary DM last night and I wanted to get the community's opinion on something. I play a barbarian and my character generally does the right thing but occasionally succumbs to his more irrational side and commits what one might call an evil act.

Example: we encountered a rapist in the act so we more or less set about playing the part of the good guys and stopped the heinous act. Near the end of the short fight the rapist gave up. I then lopped off his head since I felt that my character wouldn't show mercy for such an act.

That is a chaotic act, not an evil one. Your character is taking justice into his own hands rather than trusting the justice system to mete out an appropriate punishment.

Quote:


The DM felt differently and there was a lightening flash and my eyes turned blood red (I gained 30' of darkvision). Two other similar acts were commited throughout the course of the adventure and I gained another 30' darkvision (60 total) and a bite attack and now my eyes no longer show white (or even black for that matter). They are now blood red.

someone's DM has been playing fable?

Quote:
I personally thought the DM handled it well and I suspect if I continue on this path, I will become even more gruesome looking and even more shunned.

And probably wind up loosing the character to the darkside. Dm's never give away free food without a hook inside.

Quote:
What say you all?

its a tarp!


Welcome to Ravenloft :D

Enjoy your stay in hell :P


Well, I suppose that is the crux of the adventure. We need to find our way back. We do have a lead but it involves soliciting the help of a swamp witch whom we previously (and unknowingly) killed her 3 creepy kids.

When we last caught up with her we noticed that her 3 kids were now very much alive and mommy wasn't too happy with us.

I am just the dumb @$$ barbarian but I don't think mommy is going to help us willingly. LOL


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Krallek wrote:


I personally thought the DM handled it well and I suspect if I continue on this path, I will become even more gruesome looking and even more shunned.

And probably wind up loosing the character to the darkside. Dm's never give away free food without a hook inside.

What say you all?

I say as long as the player is allowed to keep control of his character, and is ok with the alignment shift (and it happens gradually) that it's fun for the character to 'fall to the darkside.'


Krallek wrote:

Ok, we just finished a module with a temporary DM last night and I wanted to get the community's opinion on something. I play a barbarian and my character generally does the right thing but occasionally succumbs to his more irrational side and commits what one might call an evil act.

Example: we encountered a rapist in the act so we more or less set about playing the part of the good guys and stopped the heinous act. Near the end of the short fight the rapist gave up. I then lopped off his head since I felt that my character wouldn't show mercy for such an act. The DM felt differently and there was a lightening flash and my eyes turned blood red (I gained 30' of darkvision). Two other similar acts were commited throughout the course of the adventure and I gained another 30' darkvision (60 total) and a bite attack and now my eyes no longer show white (or even black for that matter). They are now blood red.

I personally thought the DM handled it well and I suspect if I continue on this path, I will become even more gruesome looking and even more shunned.

What say you all?

Unless every NPC also suffers for evil acts he should not do anything to your character. If he has a real-life issue with you being bloodthirsty, which seems strange in a game with rape he should just say so.

PS:If background story has some kind of connection to a deity(or other background stuff), and the eye thing was story appropriate then never mind.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd wonder why the PC is having these effects if the rapist wasn't.


Without giving too much away, everyone concerned about the GM, its part of the setting. The PCs are singled out and certain thing will happen, but its not just GM fiat operating.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'd wonder why the PC is having these effects if the rapist wasn't.

The rapist hadn't finished his evil deed yet.

(Then again, maybe the rapist didn't realize he was raping. Someone starts saying 'stop' and 'no' and the order can get blurred pretty quickly.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:


The rapist hadn't finished his evil deed yet.

I'm going to start beating you. I don't know when I'll stop.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:


The rapist hadn't finished his evil deed yet.

I'm going to start beating you. I don't know when I'll stop.

Don't threaten me with a good time ;)


Krallek, don't read the following, but you should probably know your character didn't gain those benefits for just performing a morally questionable act.

Spoiler:
The setting in question, which I'm almost 100% certain is Ravenloft, is a sentient place, and malevolent. It draws in "heroes" and corrupts them when they commit acts that are in the grey area to attempt to get them to fall, as the place itself loves tragic villains.

If you don't gain the attention of the setting itself, the Dark Powers, you just live your miserable life in the setting. If you are just run of the mill evil, the setting doesn't care about you. Its only if you are heroic and can be made to fall, or if you are already some larger than life tragic villain that the setting has any use for you, specifically, and grants you any "dark gifts."

So the rapist is a sleazy evil bastard, but not, say Mister Hyde, so the Dark Powers could care less about him. But the PCs are, by default, heroes, so the setting wants to make them fall, and fall hard, and tempts them to do so.

Contributor

I've played in Ravenloft before. It had the feeling of being trapped in a Calvinist morality fable. I think the last act of my character was denouncing the Dark Powers with "They say you're unknowable, unthinkable, incomprehensible, but I have seen your true faces! You're nothing more than a bunch of sadistic old pinch-faced nuns looking for something to smack with a ruler!"

There are also some problems such as, if you follow the percentage rolls too strictly, you can shoplift your way to becoming a Dark Lord.

There's also some trouble with some of the domains being a little too PG for horror or suspension of disbelief. For example the one where the Dark Lord is the woman who poisoned her boyfriend and then felt vaguely bad about it. If that's the most evil person in the entire kingdom, I want to move there next week.

That all said, many folk love the setting and really enjoy campaigns set there, so it all depends on how you run it.


Krallek wrote:
I have already been shunned by townsfolk due to my gruesome appearance and I suspect this will become integral to the plot and something of a severe handicap.

This is more or less the type of drawbacks I was referring too. It should probably have some RP repercussions as well as possibly some mechanical disadvantages, such as -2 to social interactions or the like. But so far what you're describing sounds appropriate for the fact that you have red eyes.

Quote:
That being said, it could very well be just temporary.

Even if it's not temporary you might be able to counteract the effects by maintaining a good alignment or an Atonement spell. A few other things to keep in mind is that you may be able to hide the ill effects with a Hat of Disguise or the like. If the outward effects can't be hidden by magic some of them should be concealable with a Disguise check. Although I don't know that there is much you could do via mundane means to hide your eyes.

....

KnightErrantJR wrote:
Krallek, don't read the following, but you should probably know your character didn't gain those benefits for just performing a morally questionable act.

I see, this sounds like it could be fun. However, I would not agree with the GMs ruling that executing a corrupt individual after preventing him from raping a woman would be an Evil act. Not even really morally questionable. It is probably not Lawful, but that doesn't make it Evil. The rules don't say that executing an enemy who has surrendered is Evil, it says killing innocent people is Evil. So, unless the setting has different mechanics for what constitutes Good vs. Evil, what is morally questionable, and what can lead you down the dark path to becoming Evil, I don't think the OP should be suffering these effects.


Isn't their a video game where your looks vary depending on your alignment. Good acts give you a halo and evil acts give you horns? DM must like that game.

Anyway, if there is a story reason for it (race for a cure or what not) then by all means grow horns. However if the DM is just screwing with you then for shame on him. PC's murder all the time, usually monsters. If that's considered an evil act then your group may as well switch to Parcheesi.


You know, it just occured to me that at no point did the DM ever tell me these things were the consequence/punishment for doing an evil or chaotic act. That was MY take on it. All this talk of Ravenloft and various game settings may or may not be valid but it was me who percieved it as a potential punishment for misdoings.

Here is how it went down:

DM: Ok, after two rounds of combat the rapist throws his hands up and says "Enough! Please don't hurt me. I surrender!" Meanwhile, the woman is sobbing uncontrolably and clutching her tattered and torn dress to her bosom. Her face is badly beaten and swollen."

Ranger: Ok, look buddy, cough up your purse and give it to the lady as compensation.

Rapist: "No! She is a <insert defiant filthy language here>"

Ranger: "Seriously buddy? The barbarian is having an apopleptic seizure over there because he wants to tear your arms and legs off and give it to the girl for compensation and you are quibbling over a fistful of silver coins?"

Rapist: "No! She owes ME!"

Barbarian: "To heck with this! I plonk him on the top of his head with the hilt of my sword." *rolls 20* ... *rolls 18 to confirm crit*

DM: Um, well you sort of smashed his head like an over ripe pumpkin. As you do that you see a lightening flash overhead. *DM passes me a note saying I now have Darkvision 30'*

DM: The rest of you guys notice that the barbarians eyes are turning dark red.

Townsfolk: "Eep! Its a giant barbarian freak! Run Away!"

So there was actually no mention of it being an evil act I suppose. That was just my take on the situation I guess. Heck, for all I know the DM is encouraging this sort of behavior. Part of the backstory is that there are some corrupted fey creatures in the area wreaking havoc on the townsfolk ... one of which I just mushed up.


You know... it makes me wonder if maybe the guy was telling the truth. What if the woman 'prostituted' herself to him for some favor (but withheld the payment until said favor was complete), and then tried to withhold that payment when he'd done what she had asked him to? Maybe she really DID owe him.

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