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I would like to see this thread broken out by level - if someone feels like creating a bunch of new ones... I can just see this getting very cumbersome as replies start adding up...
I would start with 1st through 3rd level "spells" and then expand from there.
Plus, I think the meat of adventuring mostly takes place sub level 10 in general.
You guys are underestimating word burning by about spell level a decent amount of the time.
For example:
Mass (2)
Corrosive Bolt (5)
Frost Fingers (7)
Shock Arc (5)
19 Points - 6th level spell (or 5th with word burning...)
Add intensify spell metamagic 6th or 7th level20d4 + 10 d6 + 10d4 next turn + possible staggered. To multiple targets. Decent but not overpowered for a 6th or 7th level spell. Breaks the damage cap pretty strongly though.
That spell, which is pretty vicious, can be squeezed into a 3rd level slot by a 7th level caster word burning. Which downs the damage to 14d4+7d6+7d4 thanks to the CL dependent nature of the damage but still... avg 77 damage each to 7 targets and staggered for a round if they miss the save. That'll either kill outright or more usually reduce a CR7 monster to being 1 hit by your companions. And no risk of hitting friendly targets. Its still a Reflex save though, so Evasion mitigates this a bit.
Hmm, further reading means you need to make a ranged touch attack against all the targets. Not a huge drawback, but interesting.
No, you couldn't squeeze this into a 3ed level slot - there is a metamagic feat intensify (to get more than 5 dice per effect) in there... Also, no touch attack - the mass target word doesn't need touch attacks.
Finally, I think you are misreading the word burning feat. "You can split these points up among any number of other spell slots, but none of the spell slots can have a level equal to or higher than the expended spell slot." To generate a spell slot that can support 19 points of words, you need to sacrifice a spell slot of greater than or equal to 19 pts. The lowest level spell slot to do that is a 6th level slot (20 pts). The feat allows you to sacrifice, for example, a 6th level slot (20 pts), to make up to 5 5th level slots (16 pts each) act as up to 20 pt slots (16+4). It won't let you sacrifice a 3ed level slot (10 pts) to increase another...
1. It would require a ranged touch attack because corrosive bolt says it does. Other Mass spells would not, but that one does.
2. You and I have a very different reading on word burning than I do. I read it as a 6th level spell being sacrificed to allow a 5th level spell to get up to 36 points, or 2 5th levels hitting 16. Nothing in the feat limmits how many points can be added to a given spell. The spell's level cannot exceed that of the spell sacrificed, so you cannot add points to annother 6th level slot. Since none of these powers need more than 3rd level, this could be fit into a 3rd level spell slot before being metamagiced.
You guys are underestimating word burning by about spell level a decent amount of the time.
For example:
Mass (2)
Corrosive Bolt (5)
Frost Fingers (7)
Shock Arc (5)
19 Points - 6th level spell (or 5th with word burning...)
Add intensify spell metamagic 6th or 7th level20d4 + 10 d6 + 10d4 next turn + possible staggered. To multiple targets. Decent but not overpowered for a 6th or 7th level spell. Breaks the damage cap pretty strongly though.
That spell, which is pretty vicious, can be squeezed into a 3rd level slot by a 7th level caster word burning. Which downs the damage to 14d4+7d6+7d4 thanks to the CL dependent nature of the damage but still... avg 77 damage each to 7 targets and staggered for a round if they miss the save. That'll either kill outright or more usually reduce a CR7 monster to being 1 hit by your companions. And no risk of hitting friendly targets. Its still a Reflex save though, so Evasion mitigates this a bit.
Hmm, further reading means you need to make a ranged touch attack against all the targets. Not a huge drawback, but interesting.
No, you couldn't squeeze this into a 3ed level slot - there is a metamagic feat intensify (to get more than 5 dice per effect) in there... Also, no touch attack - the mass target word doesn't need touch attacks.
Finally, I think you are misreading the word burning feat. "You can split these points up among any number of other spell slots, but none of the spell slots can have a level equal to or higher than the expended spell slot." To generate a spell slot that can support 19 points of words, you need to sacrifice a spell slot of greater than or equal to 19 pts. The lowest level spell slot to do that is a 6th level slot (20 pts). The feat allows you to sacrifice, for example, a 6th level slot (20 pts), to make up to 5 5th level slots (16 pts each) act as up to 20 pt slots (16+4). It won't let you sacrifice a 3ed level slot (10 pts) to increase another...
The intensify metamagic feat sounds scary with words of power, this might be a problem.
I think you could still do this at level 7. Word burn a level 4 slot. Put the points into a level 3 slot to create the word of power spell. Then add Intensify on top, which keeps it a 3rd level spell, but makes it fill a second 4th level slot, assuming you have one. And then I think leaves you with a normal, unfilled 3rd level slot in its place? (I mean, thats how normal metamagic works. It seems counterintuitive to me for some reason that the wordburned slot gets moved up and 'replaced', but thats how normal metamagic works so...)
Word Burning and Metamagic Feats have some strange interactions. I think, from looking at it and doing some quick and dirty math, that its balanced, its just a bit hard to get your head around.
I wanted to see what I could do with a real character, with limitations, so I made Galanost. I've decided to post some of my ideas here, as it seems an appropriate place.
Power Words Known (Level Limits = 3, 5, 7, 10, 13, 16)
6th (0/day) – enhance form (body, 14/16)*
5th (4/day) – force blast (force, 12/15), large burst (target, 8), large cone (target, 8)
4th (7/day) – ice barrier (barrier, 7), terror (fear, 9/12)
3rd (8/day) – fire blast (fire, 6/8), force armor (armor (7/9), fortify (body, 7/8)*, large line (target, 5), medium burst (target, 5), medium cone (target, 5), torture (pain, 6/8)
2nd (8/day) – burning flash (fire, 5/7)*, corrosive bolt (acid, 5/7), distant (meta, 4), enhance form (body, 5/7), force bolt (force, 4/8), medium line (target, 3)
1st (8/day) – burning flash (fire, 3/5), force shield (armor, 4/5), fortify (body, 4/5), mass (target, 2), small burst (target, 3), small cone (target, 2), small line (target, 2), spook (fear, 4), wrack (pain, 3/4)
0 (at will) – acid burn (acid, 3), cold snap (cold, 2), cramp (pain, 2/3), echo (illusion, 2), flame jet (fire, 2), force block (armor, 2 or 4 with boost), personal (target, 0), sense magic (sense, 1), single (target, 0), spark (electricity, 3); +1 power word
* Boosted effect.
School conjuration [acid]; Level Sor/Wiz 2
Components V, S, M (a black dragon’s tear)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target 1 target/level
Duration 2 rounds
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
With a snap of your fingers you conjure a floating bow made of darkwood. As you direct it towards your foes, it launches a sizzling green acid bolt at each one.
Acrid bow deals 1d4 points of acid damage per level of the caster (maximum 5d4) to each target. On the following round, the targets take this damage again. Hitting a target with this spell requires a ranged touch attack. The conjured bow is strictly a magical effect that floats by your side and, as such, does not benefit from things that effect bows (such as magic weapon or weapon focus), however it can benefit from things that effect all ranged attacks (such as point blank shot). The bow cannot be targeted or harmed while it exists.
Power Words mass, acid bolt; Cost 7
School evocation (force); Level Sor/Wiz 5
Components V, S, M (a large clear marble)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range varies (see text)
Area varies or none (see text)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
You crush the marble, simply point your open palm towards your enemies, and blast them with magical force.
Destructive blast deals 1d6 points of force damage per caster level (max 10d6), to each target in the area. Targets are allowed a Reflex save for half damage. You may choose the size and shape of the spell’s area upon preparing the spell (if a wizard) or upon casting (if a sorcerer) from the following list: a 10-ft. cone-shaped burst, a 10-ft. radius burst out to close range, or a 30- or 60-ft. line. Alternatively you can simply target a number of creatures equal to your caster level within medium range, provided they are all within 30 feet of one another, rather than targeting an area.
Power Words force blast, small burst or small cone or mass or medium line or small; Cost 13, 14, or 15
School evocation (fire); Level Sor/Wiz 3
Components V, S, M (a foggy red marble)
You crush the marble, simply point your open palm towards your enemies, and blast them with magical flame.
As destructive force, but this spell deals fire damage rather than force damage to each target, and as above.
Power Words fire blast, small burst or small cone or mass or medium line or small line; Cost 8 or 9
School evocation/necromancy [electricity]; Level Sor/Wiz 3
Components V, S, M (1-ft. metal rod washed in gore)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target 1 target/level
Duration instantaneous plus 1 round/level (see text)
Saving Throw Fortitude or Reflex partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
As you envision torturing your enemies, the spell’s magic causes your desire to manifest as a sickening, green bolt of lightning that leaps from your outstretched rod and into each target causing them nauseating pain.
Electrocute deals 1d4 points of electricity damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4 points of damage, to each target, none of which can be more than 30 feet from one another (though the electrical sparks linger for the spell’s duration, the damage is instantaneous and occurs only once). Additionally, the targets become sickened for 1 round per caster level. The caster may choose to force either a Fortitude save or a Reflex save, decided upon when the spell is prepared (if a wizard) or cast (if a sorcerer). All targets must make the same type of save. Any target that that succeeds at its saving throw takes half damage and is not sickened.
Power Words mass, shock arc, wrack; Cost 10
Electrocute, Greater
School evocation/necromancy [electricity]; Level Sor/Wiz 4
Components V, S, M (2-ft. metal rod washed in gore)
Duration instantaneous plus 1 round/level (see text)
Saving Throw Fortitude partial; Spell Resistance yes
As you envision torturing your enemies, the spell’s magic causes your desire to manifest as a sickening, green bolt of lightning that leaps from your outstretched rod and into each target causing them nauseating pain.
As electrocute except that the targets become nauseated for 1 round per caster level, rather than sickened, and as above. A target that that succeeds at its Fortitude save takes half damage and is not nauseated. Targets get a new save to prematurely negate the nausea at the end of each their turns.
Power Words mass, shock arc, torture; Cost 13
Electrocute, Lesser
School evocation/necromancy [electricity]; Level Sor/Wiz 2
Components V, S, M (1-ft. metal rod)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous plus 1 round (see text)
Saving Throw Reflex partial; Spell Resistance yes
The magic of your spell manifests as a bolt of green electricity. The bolt leaps from your rod towards your target causing them to go weak in the knees from pain.
If you hit with the ray, you deal 1d4 points of electricity damage per caster level (max 5d4) to the target. Additionally, the target’s speed is reduced by half (to a minimum of 10 feet) for 1 round. A target that that succeeds at its saving throw takes half damage and is not reduced in speed.
Power Words cramp, shock arc, single; Cost 7
[spoiler=Mass Fortify]Fortify, Mass
School transmutation; Level Sor/Wiz 3
Components V, S, M (pig intestine)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target 1 target/level
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
You devour the pig’s gut, granting yourself a momentary boost of vitality, which you then channel into your allies.
Mass fortify grants each target a +1 resistance bonus on saving throws. In addition, the target receives a number of temporary hit points equal to its Hit Dice. The target need not be a creature
Power Words fortify (boosted), mass; Cost 9
School evocation/necromancy [fire]; Level Sor/Wiz 3
Components V, S, M (a bit of pickled young red dragon’s brain)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous plus 1d4 rounds (see text)
Saving Throw Will partial; Spell Resistance yes
As you cast the spell, the pickled dragon’s brain in your hand disappears in a flash of black fire that explodes outward from your outstretched fingers as a ray that engulfs the head of your agonizing foe.
If you hit with the ray you deal 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d6 points of damage, to the target. Additionally, the target becomes frightened for 1d4 rounds if they have less than 5 hit dice. A target that that succeeds at its saving throw takes half damage and is not frightened. Alternatively, you may choose to make a melee touch attack with no range instead (decided when you cast the spell). If you do so and miss the attack roll, you may hold the charge of the spell.
Power Words burning flash (boosted), single, spook; Cost 9
Mindfire, Mass
School evocation/necromancy [fire]; Level Sor/Wiz 5
Components V, S, M (a bit of pickled adult red dragon’s brain)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target 1 creature/level
Duration instantaneous plus 1 round/level (see text)
Saving Throw Will partial; Spell Resistance yes
As you cast the spell, pickled dragon’s brain in your hand disappears in a flash of black fire that explodes outward from your outstretched fingers to engulf the heads of your agonizing foes.
Mass mindfire deals 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4 points of damage, to each target, none of which can be more than 30 feet from one another (though the fire lingers for the spell’s duration, the damage is instantaneous and occurs only once). Additionally, the target becomes frightened for 1 round per caster level. A target that that succeeds at its saving throw takes half damage and is only shaken for 1 round. Mass mindfire can affect a creature of any hit dice.
Power Words burning flash, mass, terror; Cost 16
School transmutation; Level Sor/Wiz 4
Components V, S, M (bull’s horn)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target 1 target
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
As you snap the bull’s horn in two, you feel a sudden surge of raw power flow through you and into the target.
Strengthen grants the target a +4 enhancement bonus on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution in addition to a +4 armor bonus to AC. This armor is made of force and provides protection against the attacks of incorporeal creatures.
Power Words force shield, perfect form, single; Cost 13
Galonost shall share more of his spells at a later date as they come to him. Feel free to correct his mistakes or help him expand his repertoire!
Due to an unfortunate typo in my previous post, Mass Fortify got lumped into the wrong spoiler box. Here it is again for those of you who may have missed it.
School transmutation; Level Sor/Wiz 3
Components V, S, M (pig intestine)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target 1 target/level
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
You devour the pig’s gut, granting yourself a momentary boost of vitality, which you then channel into your allies.
Mass fortify grants each target a +1 resistance bonus on saving throws. In addition, the target receives a number of temporary hit points equal to its Hit Dice. The target need not be a creature.
Power Words fortify (boosted), mass; Cost 9
Just to prove word burning + metamagic feats = broken spells, I present to you Research's Lesser Hellball:
Word burning to add a 9th level's points to an 8th level spell slot. Take a 4th level spell and apply empower, intensify, Elemental spell (Fire) to it. 13+32 points of spell. Consider while casting this spell you can apply a rod of maximize or quicken or whatever else you want to do to it because for all intents and purposes it's a 4th level spell, and that's well within a spellcaster's reach.
So we now have an Empowered, Intensified, Elemental (Fire), Maximized 45 point spell with a level 4 word cap.
So let's make it a mass spell, because multiple targets with no chance of friendly fire is always fun. (For some reason mass costs less than small burst. I do not understand why. You can hit far more targets with it after level 10.)
So a Mass (2), Acid Wave (9), Ice Blast (12), Lightning Blast (9) costs a total of 32 word points. At level 15, this spell will do 45d6 reflex half when intensified. When empowered/maximized, this spell does 405 damage on a failed reflex save to 15 targets. And I can do this several more times per day. That's not even using the 13 points from my actual 4th level slot, so I could even go so far as to change this to a medium burst or medium cone and be 10 points under cap which I can freely distribute to my other spells. And I can hold drop my metamagic rod of maximize as a free, pull my quicken rod and do it again as a swift action to clean up the rest. At medium range.
This isn't even the scary part. 405 reflex half is somewhat terrifying, but you might have asked, why the elemental (fire) metamagic? Because Elemental Focus feats stack with respect to multi-descriptor spells, last I checked my APG. So if you decided to make an elementalist who wanted to was super specialized, you could easily spend 8 feats on greater elemental focus (everything) and only turn half this damage to fire and now have an acid/cold/lightning/fire spell at a +8 to its DC, making it DC 22+relevant casting modifier. A sorcerer need only pick up one bloodline feat of Empower spell to to be able to get these feats by 20th level, and a wizard can do it by 15th.
Additionally, if I really wanted to be a jerk to my DM, I could switch out Acid Wave for Terror, lower the damage output of the spell by 15d6, and make it a will negates at a -2 DC. (By the way terror should be Will Partial, as it still sticks a shaken on a failed save.) The problem being that part of the rules say that a save applies to the spell as a whole (Page 3, effect words), and another part says that saves apply to each word (Page 6, saving throw). I assume that page 6's wording being more thorough applies. So now we have again, a 32 point 4th level spell being word burned, it will deal 30d6 of empowered/maximized damage (roughly 270 damage) , and cause the frightened condition. Will partial (downgrading frightened to shaken), and will half for the damage. (135 damage, evasion what?) Oh, and the duration is now instantaneous so the frightened/shaken doesn't go away. (Or never occurs? Not sure.) And of course I can in fact drop my metamagic rod as a free action, pull my quicken rod as a standard, and quicken this spell to do it twice in a round and effectively destroy up to 17 of every single monster that comes directly to mind I've ever encountered.
Yes this takes a ridiculous amount of specialization on the wizard/sorcerer's part. However, the spellcasting DC system has never and will never encourage a spellcaster to do anything BUT specialize, because spell DCs never change except via ability score bonuses and feats. Which is of course the underlying mechanical problem with the entire DC system.
It is important to note that this interaction only occurs when word burning and metamagic spells mix together, and it's a real problem.
I think you could still do this at level 7. Word burn a level 4 slot. Put the points into a level 3 slot to create the word of power spell. Then add Intensify on top, which keeps it a 3rd level spell, but makes it fill a second 4th level slot, assuming you have one. And then I think leaves you with a normal, unfilled 3rd level slot in its place? (I mean, thats how normal metamagic works. It seems counterintuitive to me for some reason that the wordburned slot gets moved up and 'replaced', but thats how normal metamagic works so...)
Word Burning and Metamagic Feats have some strange interactions. I think, from looking at it and doing some quick and dirty math, that its balanced, its just a bit hard to get your head around.
I am fairly certain that you have to word burn to the slot the final, metamagiced spell will take up. IE if you're going to metamagic a 4th level spell up to 8th level, you can only word burn a 9th level spell and apply it to the 8th level slot, and then when the 4th level's metamagic'ed form gets there you can add the points from the 4th level slot and the 9th level slot together.
I am fairly certain that you have to word burn to the slot the final, metamagiced spell will take up. IE if you're going to metamagic a 4th level spell up to 8th level, you can only word burn a 9th level spell and apply it to the 8th level slot, and then when the 4th level's metamagic'ed form gets there you can add the points from the 4th level slot and the 9th level slot together.I think you could still do this at level 7. Word burn a level 4 slot. Put the points into a level 3 slot to create the word of power spell. Then add Intensify on top, which keeps it a 3rd level spell, but makes it fill a second 4th level slot, assuming you have one. And then I think leaves you with a normal, unfilled 3rd level slot in its place? (I mean, thats how normal metamagic works. It seems counterintuitive to me for some reason that the wordburned slot gets moved up and 'replaced', but thats how normal metamagic works so...)
Word Burning and Metamagic Feats have some strange interactions. I think, from looking at it and doing some quick and dirty math, that its balanced, its just a bit hard to get your head around.
That seems like a sensible way to fix the problem.
That seems like a sensible way to fix the problem.
It does fix many of them, but unfortunately Research's Lesser Hellball is built using that restriction. And in all honesty that spell utterly terrifies me.
That seems like a sensible way to fix the problem.It does fix many of them, but unfortunately Research's Lesser Hellball] is built using that restriction. And in all honesty that spell utterly terrifies me.
Considering the investment it requires, I'm not that scared of it.
Considering the investment it requires, I'm not that scared of it.That seems like a sensible way to fix the problem.It does fix many of them, but unfortunately Research's Lesser Hellball] is built using that restriction. And in all honesty that spell utterly terrifies me.
The thing is I'm pretty sure the caster can do that and still pull off several other spells. It's just the first ridiculously broken spell of many. Consider that instead of maximizing the spell he could instead go for a dazing rod and just stunlock an encounter down. Medium level +3 rods are nothing to a level 17+.
I'm working on some more ridiculous options at the moment, but that was just the first WTF-I-can't-believe-this-works spell I found.
Considering the investment it requires, I'm not that scared of it.That seems like a sensible way to fix the problem.It does fix many of them, but unfortunately Research's Lesser Hellball] is built using that restriction. And in all honesty that spell utterly terrifies me.The thing is I'm pretty sure the caster can do that and still pull off several other spells. It's just the first ridiculously broken spell of many. Consider that instead of maximizing the spell he could instead go for a dazing rod and just stunlock an encounter down. Medium level +3 rods are nothing to a level 17+.
I'm working on some more ridiculous options at the moment, but that was just the first WTF-I-can't-believe-this-works spell I found.
Well, hopefully this playtest will help the designers spot the real problematic areas without also giving this cause to neuter the new system beyond (fun) use.
Not meaning to post off topic too far but the official answer to Word Burning is at this post.
Should help answer your questions on spell design.
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Some spells I made during some free time.
Level: 1 Cost: 3
Range: 20ft
School: Evocation(Cold)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: yes
This spell inflicts 1d3 cold damage to all targets in a 20ft line.
Freeze Ray II (Small Line Frost Fingers)
Level: 2 Cost: 7
Range: 20ft
School: Evocation(Cold)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: yes
This spell inflicts 1d6 points cold damage per caster level(maximum 5d6) to all targets in a 20ft line. A target that fails its saving throw is also staggered for 1 round.
Freeze Ray II I (Small Line Frost Fingers Cold Snap)
Level: 3 Cost: 9
Range: 20ft
School: Evocation(Cold)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: yes
This spell inflicts 1d3 + 1d6 points cold damage per caster level(maximum 5d6) to all targets in a 20ft line. A target that fails its saving throw is also staggered for 1 round.
Freeze Ray IV (Small Line Ice Blast)
Level: 4 Cost: 11
Range: 20ft
School: Evocation(Cold)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: yes
This spell deals 1d6 points of cold damage per level of the caster (maximum 10d6) to all targets in a 20ft line. A target that fails its saving throw is entangled by the ice for 1d4 rounds. The entangled effect ends if the target takes an amount of fire damage equal to or greater than the caster level of this spell.
Since nobody else has started it, shall we use this thread to collate and discuss spells made out of words? I'm sure we won't get all the combinations, but at least we can take a look at a few and go over interesting things to do, their power and so forth.Single Cold Snap Cramp:
Cliche frost spell, deals 1d3 frost damage as a ranged touch attack, slowing the enemy. Fort negates. Level 1.
Lol. Automatically made the same spell myself as my first.