The question is then what details, and are they worth making a new class?One critical question to answer for something like a Detective is if the hypothetical consumer wants in-depth non-combat features or not. If the hypothetical person it's being designed for thinks that non-combat Detectiving should just be covered by skills, via such things as new codified uses and maybe some feats, they don't need a full new class. But if instead they need in-depth detection and analyzation abilities then they're probably going to want a class because it's the best way to cram all those mechanics into one shell.
Well you have to consider that if the Detective has unique non-combat skills ...
1) How do these effect non-combat play? would it be possible for the Detective to cake-walk what should be a challenging scene for a normal party?
2) What will the rest of the party be doing while this goes on? If it is too far beyond what other classes can participate in, the Detective (or other class) is effectively soloing the scene. Not always a bad thing but not a good recipe if it happens too often.
Sherlock Holmes didn’t overshadow Dr. Watson. In lots of the cases, Holmes found clues that Dr. Watson explained. In the orange pips one, Dr. Watson found the main clue by going to a funeral and having a medical opinion. By going over a crime scene, a detective can find things for an alchemist to analyze. The alchemist then gets bonuses from the detective to analyze the clue.
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None, tbh.I'm inclined to agree. There's alot of stuff from the 3.5 supplements I could actually see them having the potential of adding, but with the advent of Ultimate Magic with the Magus class, you can *almost* do anything you need with Archetypes.
To me, that is the end of the discussion. If fact the worst idea I've seen on these forums was someone suggesting that the RPG superstaer winner design a new class.
Sherlock Holmes didn’t overshadow Dr. Watson. In lots of the cases, Holmes found clues that Dr. Watson explained. In the orange pips one, Dr. Watson found the main clue by going to a funeral and having a medical opinion. By going over a crime scene, a detective can find things for an alchemist to analyze. The alchemist then gets bonuses from the detective to analyze the clue.
What did Holmes have? A superlative intellect (high Int) and Knowledge skills. You can represent that with an Expert.
In game terms, you have to avoid creating a new 'minigame' that only involves those with the necessary abilities.
Pathfinder versions of
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Would love to see a Temporal Adventure based of the bard class (Travel, divination, Time effects, Force effects, Cage/Stasis effects).
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Would love to see a Temporal Traveler based of the Ranger class (Travel & Divination oriented (loss the nature ability).
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Would love to see a Stone Builder class ... have "Stone Shape" at will, 1-4th level spells ability (Land, sky, water type spells), skills 4 or 6 points per level, Some spell based off gems (5th-7th) (gems would need to be prepared like scribe scroll feat first) (gems always cost Gold coins based on type and color) , and higher level spells (8th-9th) based off magic structures built (like Monoliths, obelisks, pyramids, or towers) were caster could use spells x times per day.
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Well i will keep dreaming :)
I would be very happy if detective got the same kind of upgrade Alchemist got in the APG. Alchemist used to be an NPC only class like Expert is now.
If a rogue swears off stealing forever they can substitute detective levels for their crook levels. It's much like how a paladin becomes an antipaladin or fighter. With all the detective hate this topic should be moved to general discussion.
If a rogue swears off stealing forever they can substitute detective levels for their crook levels. It's much like how a paladin becomes an antipaladin or fighter. With all the detective hate this topic should be moved to general discussion.The class had it's focus changed way back in 3.0. The Rogue class is no longer focused on stealing.
And another thing..the dirty cop is a classic trope in literature. Also, the detective who pick pockets items to gather clues is as well. A character wouldn't have to swear off stealing to be a detective.
Exactly. Hence the change to its title, from "Thief" to "Rogue".
Though interestingly enough, even if you put no percentage towards your Pick Pockets ability (let's say I found Climb Walls to be much more useful), you were still a thief. And there are people out there who think "roles" were a new concept. Pfff.
Oh and...
Now, can someone explain how a Rogue, Bard, Cleric, or Diviner can't make a good Detective?
Agreed, just about any class should be able to make a good detective if they put their spells and/or skills towards it. Seen a Blue Dragon Sorcerer and a Fighter both pull off a "detective" theme for their characters quite nicely, with the abilities to back it up.
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For the Favored Soul, I would suggest going with a Divine Sorcerer rather than Cleric. Just throw in Cleric (and Druid?) Spell list, change the flavor, and add some armor and you are mostly good to go. I would also hope that you fix that thrice bedamned dual spellcasting stats. Just go Wis, or if you must Cha.
If a rogue swears off stealing forever they can substitute detective levels for their crook levels. It's much like how a paladin becomes an antipaladin or fighter. With all the detective hate this topic should be moved to general discussion.
Who said rogues had to steal? 'Rogue' is a character class with moderate combat ability and an emphasis on skills and (when needed) sticking the knife in.
For a detective, swap Trapfinding for Social Networking or Cluefinding. If you want Sherlock Holme's martial arts expertise, swap sneak attack for a monk's unarmed progression. Add all knowledge skills in - voilà, detective.
For the Favored Soul, I would suggest going with a Divine Sorcerer rather than Cleric.
I would suggest using an Oracle. Spontaneous, Cha based divine caster ... yep, got it all there.
I think just about any idea would work for a base class so long as it is balanced and has unique abilities that no other class has. sure you can make just about any character concept with what exists but that doesn't automatically rule out the creation of a new class.
just look at the classes in the APG, you could have made any of those classes with the existing classes but they made them anyway and gave them abilities that no other class had.
I think there is plenty of room for more classes and i want to see more original class ides from Paizo.
For the Favored Soul, I would suggest going with a Divine Sorcerer rather than Cleric. Just throw in Cleric (and Druid?) Spell list, change the flavor, and add some armor and you are mostly good to go. I would also hope that you fix that thrice bedamned dual spellcasting stats. Just go Wis, or if you must Cha.
Battle Sorcerer perhaps?
i just really want to see some more origanl base class ideas from paizo, i want to see what they come up with and as far as i am concerned there must be a new base class in the ultimate combat book sense there is the magus in the ultimate magic book.
I would like to see a rogue/wizard-type base class now that there's a fighter/wizard. Something like an Int-based Bard without the singing or maybe with a different support mechanic.
Put me in the little to no new base classes camp, now the the APG has introduced archetypes I want those to be the primary means of expanding on the base classes, with new classes added only if there is absolutely no way to fill the planned role using archetypes. I especially don't want to see a new base class for wu jen, samurai, ninjas, or any other oriental flavored class, as those classes can be easily simulated as is with the wizard, fighter, or rogue, and at most an archetype could be created for those classes and easily cover them.
I would like to see a rogue/wizard-type base class now that there's a fighter/wizard. Something like an Int-based Bard without the singing or maybe with a different support mechanic.
I think this is what the hotly debated ninja class should be: a mystic that uses magical means to accomplish what the rogue does with skills and talents and sneak attacks.
Maybe use the warlock as inspiration.
I wouldn't call it a ninja - that name is loaded with too many preconceptions and real world baggage! But I do like the idea of a stealthy mystic.
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Well...
I agree with many posts about the Noble class. That said, those with a privelaged background in fantasy often become wizards or clerics. Martial types now have the Cavalier.
The scholar has also been much suggested, and could cover a variety of bases. The non-magical healer (still shouldn't touch the advantages posed by magical healing), the detective etc. There could be a strong Use Magic Device element or the possibility to copy scrolls to access spells, a bit like the Archivist in Heroes of Horror.
Elements I'd like to see but could be covered by archetypes are:
A better weapons adept. An increase in weapons base damage, scaling like the monks unarmed strike damage? After all, most damage doesn't come from the die roll at higher levels, but it would depend what you were sacrificing.
A gladiator: I think there should be an element of Sneak Attack, perhaps substituting every other fighter bonus feat. I think of the scene in Spartacus where they daub him in red, yellow and blue paint for different killing zones...
A gunpowder fighter: Kobold quarterly 13 had the Arquebusier, but I feel this might sit better as an archetype like the Crossbowman.
The Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana was a good cleric variant. Why would priests of non-martial deities have armour and a reasonable base attack? Switching those options out for a greater skill pool and another domain (knowledge) seemed to make perfect sense to me.
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As for should there be more new classes, the other publishers have done a great job for those who want a number of other classes. One of the previous posts from Red Goblin Games? (sorry if thats wrong) are publishing a noble class...
That leaves Pathfinder core with a slowly expanding core base class collection, with a multitude of options from other publishers if it fits your campaign.
I think the situation people fear is the 3.5 problem, eventually there were something like 51 base classes and over 208 variations or Archetypes. Many of these had shifted the power base so much that Pathfinder felt the need to remake the base classes to balance them against this.
Each of the Archetypes is a great idea for a class, if thats the way you want to take your game.
The Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana was a good cleric variant. Why would priests of non-martial deities have armour and a reasonable base attack? Switching those options out for a greater skill pool and another domain (knowledge) seemed to make perfect sense to me.
Yes, I have to agree with this variant!
I think there is a way to have any type of character imaginable by using the advanced players guide more or less. One that isn't really given is a magic using mounted character. you can sort of multi-class a cavalier and a caster but it doesn't really work complimentary with one another. A caster that uses his mount like a Mongol horse archer only with magic that enhances his damage and his mount's effectiveness would be sort of interesting. perhaps the mount can cast a few augmenting spells of its own. maybe make it an alternate cavalier class feature set "the Witchrider"
I think there is a way to have any type of character imaginable by using the advanced players guide more or less. One that isn't really given is a magic using mounted character. you can sort of multi-class a cavalier and a caster but it doesn't really work complimentary with one another. A caster that uses his mount like a Mongol horse archer only with magic that enhances his damage and his mount's effectiveness would be sort of interesting. perhaps the mount can cast a few augmenting spells of its own. maybe make it an alternate cavalier class feature set "the Witchrider"
This sounds like an alternate version or PrC for the summoner, druid, ranger, paladin, wizard, witch (Improved Familiar Mount!), etc.
yeah a witch with an improved familiar mount would work with maybe some alternate hexes.
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The Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana was a good cleric variant. Why would priests of non-martial deities have armour and a reasonable base attack? Switching those options out for a greater skill pool and another domain (knowledge) seemed to make perfect sense to me.Yes, I have to agree with this variant!
I agree as well, though it was one of th only good ones for Cleric I have ever seen. I want more like it for different aspects of the class.
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For the Favored Soul, I would suggest going with a Divine Sorcerer rather than Cleric. Just throw in Cleric (and Druid?) Spell list, change the flavor, and add some armor and you are mostly good to go. I would also hope that you fix that thrice bedamned dual spellcasting stats. Just go Wis, or if you must Cha.Battle Sorcerer perhaps?
I took it for granted that the Favored Soul would retain its Skills, HP, BaB, and Saves, just using the Bloodlines and Spells from the Sorcerer. I should have been more clear with what I meant.
I took it for granted that the Favored Soul would retain its Skills, HP, BaB, and Saves, just using the Bloodlines and Spells from the Sorcerer. I should have been more clear with what I meant.For the Favored Soul, I would suggest going with a Divine Sorcerer rather than Cleric. Just throw in Cleric (and Druid?) Spell list, change the flavor, and add some armor and you are mostly good to go. I would also hope that you fix that thrice bedamned dual spellcasting stats. Just go Wis, or if you must Cha.Battle Sorcerer perhaps?
Maybe you didn't understand, I am talking about the battle sorcerer variant from Unearthed Arcana. This would get you Intermediate base attack, light armor casting, and spontaneous casting with the Cha stat. You could chose celestial or fiendish blood lines to fit your alignment. Otherwise, why not use the Inquisitor?
A legit 'Sage' caster class would be great, something with good knowledge that isn't just a bard or CHA/INT rogue in a fancy wrapper. An arcane skillmonkey?Loremaster?Or any wizard. Or an expert.
I think the problem with a full-blown sage base class is that it just doesn't offer enough to be viable. Plus, you can make plenty of other classes (bard, rogue, wizard, oracle of knowledge; expert for NPCs) do that job (and they have other skills as well).
I'd think that a mechanic that specializes in say "find weakness" or some such thing can be REALLY useful for them.
In fact, if such a class had something along the lines of say "rage powers" menu's to fuel just *how* they apply their knowledge, it would be very, very nice!
Maybe it even has less spell power or something overall, but can grant something akin to a "Knowledge bonus" to be added into the mix of the likes of "moral" bonus and such for allies, or lower enemy saves, or DC's, or SR, or ... etc. All of it fueled because of what they "know" would be really, REALLY cool!.
I'd think that a mechanic that specializes in say "find weakness" or some such thing can be REALLY useful for them.
In fact, if such a class had something along the lines of say "rage powers" menu's to fuel just *how* they apply their knowledge, it would be very, very nice!
Maybe it even has less spell power or something overall, but can grant something akin to a "Knowledge bonus" to be added into the mix of the likes of "moral" bonus and such for allies, or lower enemy saves, or DC's, or SR, or ... etc. All of it fueled because of what they "know" would be really, REALLY cool!.
You know I think that would make a really cool monk variant.
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I would be very happy if detective got the same kind of upgrade Alchemist got in the APG. Alchemist used to be an NPC only class like Expert is now.
A PC 'detective' defaults to a rogue. Some detectives can be other classes, for example Ms. Marple is probably an aristocrat, and some fantasy novels have wizard detectives.
Definately no need for another class.
I would be very happy if detective got the same kind of upgrade Alchemist got in the APG. Alchemist used to be an NPC only class like Expert is now.A PC 'detective' defaults to a rogue. Some detectives can be other classes, for example Ms. Marple is probably an aristocrat, and some fantasy novels have wizard detectives.
Definately no need for another class.
At most, a prestige class, I would agree, or a class variation (like allowing a rogue all knowledge skills as class skills in return for some other abilities).
base classes are really just a skeleton for class abilities.
BAB/HP are linked
Jockey around saves
Then spell casting is based upon BABHP breaks also
Full caster
6 level caster
4 level caster
Archetypes swap out class abilities. So if you wanted to make a fighter based unarmed fighter, strip the class abilities and rework the class abilities completely. Call it a Major Archetype.
I would be very happy if detective got the same kind of upgrade Alchemist got in the APG. Alchemist used to be an NPC only class like Expert is now.A PC 'detective' defaults to a rogue. Some detectives can be other classes, for example Ms. Marple is probably an aristocrat, and some fantasy novels have wizard detectives.
Definately no need for another class.
Harry Dresden, Wizard for hire.
A legit 'Sage' caster class would be great, something with good knowledge that isn't just a bard or CHA/INT rogue in a fancy wrapper. An arcane skillmonkey?Loremaster?Or any wizard. Or an expert.
I think the problem with a full-blown sage base class is that it just doesn't offer enough to be viable. Plus, you can make plenty of other classes (bard, rogue, wizard, oracle of knowledge; expert for NPCs) do that job (and they have other skills as well).
I'd think that a mechanic that specializes in say "find weakness" or some such thing can be REALLY useful for them.
In fact, if such a class had something along the lines of say "rage powers" menu's to fuel just *how* they apply their knowledge, it would be very, very nice!
Maybe it even has less spell power or something overall, but can grant something akin to a "Knowledge bonus" to be added into the mix of the likes of "moral" bonus and such for allies, or lower enemy saves, or DC's, or SR, or ... etc. All of it fueled because of what they "know" would be really, REALLY cool!.
Look at the Archivist Bard archetype...bard performance works almost exactly like that.
Maybe a Maester class, from the Song of Fire and Ice. Essentially a sage type, but with valuable specialties that would be useful for adventuring. It could combine non-magical healing and surgical techniques, alchemy, poisoning, Dark Knowledge-like buffing and de-buffing, maybe a non-magical familiar and/or animal companion, trapfinding and disabling, maybe MacGyverish-tinkering and quick non-magical item creation, etc. etc.
Maybe an alchemist archetype with +1/2 BAB, 1d6 HD, Good Will Saves, and 8 + Int mod Skill Ranks, with a whole mess of new discoveries.
I would like to see a rogue/wizard-type base class now that there's a fighter/wizard. Something like an Int-based Bard without the singing or maybe with a different support mechanic.I think this is what the hotly debated ninja class should be: a mystic that uses magical means to accomplish what the rogue does with skills and talents and sneak attacks.
Maybe use the warlock as inspiration.
I'd say the Temple Raider of Olidammara would be a better inspiration.
I'd like more racial base classes; like the giant that was put out by the 3rd party publisher. Just seems a solid concept; a build-your-own-dragon race class would be awesome :).
I *hate* the idea of races as classes. They require exceptions to the rules. Classes are supposed to be 20 levels, not 2 or 5 or 10, unless it's a racial class. Racial hit dice don't get maximized at first level, unless you turn it into a class, in which case they do. There are others, I don't remember all of them just now.
What I would be ok with, and I wish they'd do something like this, is racial modifications. That is, adjustments to the base race that are generic enough to apply to any race (like taking away special senses and replacing them, or removing non cultural traits, etc). Then on top of that, adjusting the class levels, fixing the hit die and bab for the first N levels of any classes taken, delay one class ability (character's choice) by one level each level, for the first N levels, etc.
I'd say the Temple Raider of Olidammara would be a better inspiration.I would like to see a rogue/wizard-type base class now that there's a fighter/wizard. Something like an Int-based Bard without the singing or maybe with a different support mechanic.I think this is what the hotly debated ninja class should be: a mystic that uses magical means to accomplish what the rogue does with skills and talents and sneak attacks.
Maybe use the warlock as inspiration.
I think it would be cool if it were more like an arcane version of Inquisitor--some cool flavor and mechanics rather than just spells+sneak attack.
i think my big opinion is that i would like to see more non magic based classes. honestly more combat classes but just all in all more non casters
I'd like a variant of the wizard that allowed for a spell pool and stuff. Can't remember what they were called in 3.5 but they were cool.
I think those were called Psions :)
I think Psionic classes are the only actual base classes I want to see at the moment, and that everything else can be covered by archetypes. Of course, I didn't think I wanted a Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, or Witch before the APG playtest, so there may be a couple more ideas that absolutely require base classes.
I'd like a variant of the wizard that allowed for a spell pool and stuff. Can't remember what they were called in 3.5 but they were cool.I think those were called Psions :)
I think Psionic classes are the only actual base classes I want to see at the moment, and that everything else can be covered by archetypes. Of course, I didn't think I wanted a Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, or Witch before the APG playtest, so there may be a couple more ideas that absolutely require base classes.
Dreamscarred got you covered, mate!