Hello.
So, per both the Core Rulebook and the following link:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cat-s-grace
It appears Cat's Grace is not for Clerics.
Is this intentional?
I'm mostly curious as to the reason the ability to increase one's dexterity is only in the domain of Bards, Druids, Rangers and Sorc/Wizards.
Cheers.
Hello.
So, per both the Core Rulebook and the following link:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cat-s-grace
It appears Cat's Grace is not for Clerics.
Is this intentional?
I'm mostly curious as to the reason the ability to increase one's dexterity is only in the domain of Bards, Druids, Rangers and Sorc/Wizards.
Cheers.
Its been around for a while, so i'm going to conclude firmly that its deliberate.
I'm going to tentatively conclude its so that clerics can't buff over their one weakness: a crappy reflex save.
I've wondered about this myself. The +2 bonus that the spell gives on Dex-based rolls won't completely boost the cleric's poor Reflex save, nor boost their AC into the stratosphere. The modifier on ranged attack rolls is nice, as is the initiative boost, but that's about it IMO.
Well, first, they gave the spells all Clerics will need --- Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom, Eagle's Splendor --- Str, Con, Wis, Cha.
Dex and Int are common dump stats.
Also, it makes sense to leave spells out the general list to give something unique to the Domains. That's half the fun of Cleric Domains, accessing spells the general Cleric doesn't get.
Appreciate the thoughts and responses.
It does make sense, though, that's somewhat sad a reason, if it were in fact, just due to "dump stats" or to sex up the Domain powers.
Heh.
Cheers.
I have no particular problem with this ruling, though some might say it makes no sense with regards to the gods. For example if you follow a god of thievery or agility, cat's grace seems like a perfect spell. The same goes for a god of knowledge or science being able to boost his clerics' intelligence.
In my new campaign world I will be allowing certain clerics to replace bull's strength with cat's grace and eagles splendor with fox's cunning depending on their god. Bear's endurance and owl's wisdom will be non-negotiable.
I have no particular problem with this ruling, though some might say it makes no sense with regards to the gods. For example if you follow a god of thievery or agility, cat's grace seems like a perfect spell. The same goes for a god of knowledge or science being able to boost his clerics' intelligence.
In my new campaign world I will be allowing certain clerics to replace bull's strength with cat's grace and eagles splendor with fox's cunning depending on their god. Bear's endurance and owl's wisdom will be non-negotiable.
Wouldn't that tie into "domain" spells? A general spell list is what is being given to everyone regardless of god. A specific god would have access to domains and could grant additional spells according to that theme. Swapping out spells is a house rule for the sake of having the rule even though there is a mechanic in place to do the same thing. Not saying it is wrong, just saying it is doing something that has already been accounted for.
I would agree with you if there were domains to cover everything and if we weren't talking about a narrow selection of spells. What I'm doing is nothing new and is actually what Paizo did when they released their Gods and Magic book. Each god gave his or her followers an additional selection of spells to choose from or altered the level of exisitng spells they could access.
I would agree with you if there were domains to cover everything and if we weren't talking about a narrow selection of spells. What I'm doing is nothing new and is actually what Paizo did when they released their Gods and Magic book. Each god gave his or her followers an additional selection of spells to choose from or altered the level of exisitng spells they could access.
True, but they didn't subtract from their spell list while doing so. I'd say add those in for the deity in question, but don't replace BS/ES.
Probably because clerics were expected to pretty much always be wearing full plate in 3.5, which is where the PF spell lists are almost entirely copied from, and so it would have been of little use to them and not in the flavor of the heavily armored caster-tank.
PF toned down the cleric's role as the heavy armored caster tank (by taking away heavy armor prof), but generally little details like adjusting the availability of a seocnd level spell to reflect that wouldn't have been on anyone's list to update. Much like nobody bothered to update a candle of invocation to line up with Gate's new material cost, or a Deck of Many Things' reward cards to reflect PF's total revamp of experience progression. :)
Even if the devs had noticed such a small thing they may not have thought it should be changed, but really I doubt tiny things like this usually get noticed anyway in the mess of a whole core books rewrite.
I would agree with you if there were domains to cover everything and if we weren't talking about a narrow selection of spells. What I'm doing is nothing new and is actually what Paizo did when they released their Gods and Magic book. Each god gave his or her followers an additional selection of spells to choose from or altered the level of exisitng spells they could access.True, but they didn't subtract from their spell list while doing so. I'd say add those in for the deity in question, but don't replace BS/ES.
My intention is not to replicate Gods and Magic but to use a similar principle. I have no problem with what you are saying, but my way prevents one cleric from whinging that they don't get cat's grace when some other cleric does. At least when it's a trade off it actually makes the choice more of a flavor choice than a power choice.
|
It wasn't really Reflex or AC I was worried about when I played my RotRL character, full plate and the works, but touch attacks. Oh boy, touch attacks can really mess up a cleric. Wisdom draining attacks anyone?
Anyway, I support this omission of fox's cunning and cat's grace on the grounds of making the cleric and bard spell lists more unique. So there.
CAT'S GRACE -- NOT FOR CLERICS. WHY?
I have no idea. Might have been done original for game balance, (ya, do not want to hear it, just saying).
Here is a breakdown of who has what for easy referenceing
Wizard/Sor get (6): Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagles Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom.
Bards get (3): Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning.
Cleric get (4): Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom,
Druids get (4): Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Does this mean that a cleric is only supposed to use these buffs on themselves? Surely they should be boosting team mates, in which case Dex and Int seem perfectly reasonable.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dex is a dump stat?!? Really?!?
I don't ever recall thinking of Dex as a dump stat when creating ANY character, regardless of class. As Muser pointed out, there are touch attacks.
And here's another point I would have made if it hadn't been made already: As spaceLem just pointed out, buffs can be used on other characters.
(It's not that I terribly mind missing a spell; there are plenty of them to choose from anyway.)
Dex is not a dump stat for an agile, stealthy character (who of course does not wear armor). But I would disagree it is not a dump stat for ANY class. For character who wear medium to heavy armor, which Clerics fall under, it is considered a dump stat. I would pretty much pick any of the other attributes for a cleric first, even Int, for the added skill points.
The heavier armor limits how high their Dex can go and being able to apply it to touch attacks is not enough to balance that out.
Dex is not a dump stat for an agile, stealthy character (who of course does not wear armor). But I would disagree it is not a dump stat for ANY class. For character who wear medium to heavy armor, which Clerics fall under, it is considered a dump stat. I would pretty much pick any of the other attributes for a cleric first, even Int, for the added skill points.
The heavier armor limits how high their Dex can go and being able to apply it to touch attacks is not enough to balance that out.
Remember that clerics are no longer proficient in heavy armor. They are at best in medium armor unless you pay for that extra feat. And the last cleric I played I kept her in light armor because I considered mobility very important--if the guy needing healing was 30 feet away, I wanted to be able to get to him that round, not the round after.
As has already been pointed out, clerics have a lot of touch attack-based abilities, which are reliant on Dexterity. And Clerics have low reflex saves too. I am sure there are times they would like to boost their own Reflex saves if not that of others. Fighting dragons comes to mind.
I am NOT going to say that playing a cleric with low Dex is "wrong"--nor is playing one with high dex. I am saying, there is a good reason clerics may want to raise their own Dexterity from time to time--if not others'; a major cleric role is buffing, after all.
And come to think of it, if you're playing a Cleric item crafter, being able to make your own Belt of Dexterity would be nice.
I've not understood why all the stat boost spells aren't available to all the casters that have such spells, and have considered house ruling that in. I don't see it breaking anything--especially since characters are still restricted by how many spells they can prepare/cast a day. Forcing a cleric to choose between Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace isn't going to unbalance much, IMO.
Dex is not a dump stat for an agile, stealthy character (who of course does not wear armor). But I would disagree it is not a dump stat for ANY class. For character who wear medium to heavy armor, which Clerics fall under, it is considered a dump stat. I would pretty much pick any of the other attributes for a cleric first, even Int, for the added skill points.
The heavier armor limits how high their Dex can go and being able to apply it to touch attacks is not enough to balance that out.
Remember that clerics are no longer proficient in heavy armor. They are at best in medium armor unless you pay for that extra feat. And the last cleric I played I kept her in light armor because I considered mobility very important--if the guy needing healing was 30 feet away, I wanted to be able to get to him that round, not the round after.
As has already been pointed out, clerics have a lot of touch attack-based abilities, which are reliant on Dexterity. And Clerics have low reflex saves too. I am sure there are times they would like to boost their own Reflex saves if not that of others. Fighting dragons comes to mind.
I am NOT going to say that playing a cleric with low Dex is "wrong"--nor is playing one with high dex. I am saying, there is a good reason clerics may want to raise their own Dexterity from time to time--if not others'; a major cleric role is buffing, after all.
First of all, yes I am aware that Clerics do not receive the Heavy Armor Proficency any longer. Although, your typical cleric is most likely going to still going to take it due to having good HP’s and the ability to tassle in melee combat more than other most caster classes (when needed). Also, I did make sure to specify ‘medium’, along with heavy armor in my post, which also does limit your Dex.
That being said, I don’t think anyone should feel they should go down one route for any class. I am not saying having a high Dex for a cleric will not benefit them. If they want to play a cleric who has light, or even no armor, I say good for them and they probably can make just as good of a cleric. But my point is for those people who still going to make clerics that have heavy, or at least medium armor (which is most), Dex is very much a ‘dump’ stat.
CAT'S GRACE -- NOT FOR CLERICS. WHY?
I have no idea. Might have been done original for game balance, (ya, do not want to hear it, just saying).
Here is a breakdown of who has what for easy referenceing
Wizard/Sor get (6): Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagles Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom.
Bards get (3): Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning.
Cleric get (4): Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom,
Druids get (4): Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Notice that, except for Fox's Cunning, Each Type is spread across 3 of the 4 class
I could swear that back when D&D 3.0 was first release, that they said on, "Wizard of the Coast", message board(back before Hasbro bought them) that this was done for game balance, to insure that each class was providing something different ((except wizard, due to them wanting them to have the ability to be a low level buffer class)).
|
I could swear that back when D&D 3.0 was first release, that they said on, "Wizard of the Coast", message board(back before Hasbro bought them) that this was done for game balance, to insure that each class was providing something different ((except wizard, due to them wanting them to have the ability to be a low level buffer class)).
...in addition to being THE MOST AMAZING ALL-AROUND CLASS IN THE GAME.
Just saying, if that was why they did it, it was a silly reason.
We've houseruled that Clerics and Druids get all of the 6 2nd level stat buffs ever since 3.0, and it's never been an issue.
Creative Director
|
Dex is a dump stat?!? Really?!?
I don't ever recall thinking of Dex as a dump stat when creating ANY character, regardless of class. As Muser pointed out, there are touch attacks.
And here's another point I would have made if it hadn't been made already: As spaceLem just pointed out, buffs can be used on other characters.
(It's not that I terribly mind missing a spell; there are plenty of them to choose from anyway.)
I've played a LOT of clerics in my day, and I've used Dex as a dump stat quite often.
That said, my current cleric in Rob McCreary's game is a two weapon starknifer, and Dex is one of her best stats.
So it's not ALWAYS the best case, but clerics, as a general rule, need Dex less than other spellcasters.
Honestly... if the stats are doing their job, then determining the "dump stat" should ALWAYS be a hard choice.
I could swear that back when D&D 3.0 was first release, that they said on, "Wizard of the Coast", message board(back before Hasbro bought them) that this was done for game balance, to insure that each class was providing something different ((except wizard, due to them wanting them to have the ability to be a low level buffer class))....in addition to being THE MOST AMAZING ALL-AROUND CLASS IN THE GAME.
Just saying, if that was why they did it, it was a silly reason.
Well, keep in mind these people also massively jacked up the power of the druid from 3.0 to 3.5 because for some reason they didn't think the 3.0 druid already rocked the house.
(I love the 3.5 wizard in terms of being fun to play as well as being tough, but I think it's not hard to make a case that the 3.5 druid gives it a run for its money.)
We've houseruled that Clerics and Druids get all of the 6 2nd level stat buffs ever since 3.0, and it's never been an issue.
(since this tread was moved to general Discussion)
Ya sounds cool to me
|
|
Don't forget the sliver casters!
Paladins get: Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom
Rangers get: Bear's Endurance, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom
Which makes Fox's Cunning the most rare, and Owl's Wisdom quite common. Which makes sense, since only one arcane caster is limited in this regard (of 3) and the divine casters don't care about intelligence as much as wisdom.
That said, my current cleric in Rob McCreary's game is a two weapon starknifer, and Dex is one of her best stats.
It must be hard to cast your spells while fighting with 2 weapons. I hope you have the quick draw feat or something, because you need a free hand to cast spells with somatic components. :P
Greetings, fellow travellers.
My view so far has the bard be primary buffer/debuffer, so I always wondered why that class only got the stat boosting spells which affect combat the least.
Ruyan.
Yup; Dexterity and Intelligence are pretty much the two least useful stats for a cleric, and so ever since 3rd edition came around (which is where these spells first showed up) they decided to not give out these two to clerics.
That makes sense. Thanks James.
Wouldn't it make sense to give them the spells so they could buff their teammates as well? Seems like just giving the clerics spells to buff themselves with seems very egocentric, aye?|
Creative Director
|
Yup; Dexterity and Intelligence are pretty much the two least useful stats for a cleric, and so ever since 3rd edition came around (which is where these spells first showed up) they decided to not give out these two to clerics.That makes sense. Thanks James.
Wouldn't it make sense to give them the spells so they could buff their teammates as well? Seems like just giving the clerics spells to buff themselves with seems very egocentric, aye?
Perhaps.
But just as you can define something by giving it something, you can define something by NOT giving it something. Clerics not getting all six of the ability score buff spells is part of what makes being a cleric a cleric, honestly. When you get right down to it, who gets what spells is arbitrary, even down to "clerics get healing and wizards don't." Those choices, arbitrary as they may be, help to give the classes their flavor.
Dex is a dump stat?!? Really?!?
I don't ever recall thinking of Dex as a dump stat when creating ANY character, regardless of class. As Muser pointed out, there are touch attacks.
And here's another point I would have made if it hadn't been made already: As spaceLem just pointed out, buffs can be used on other characters.
(It's not that I terribly mind missing a spell; there are plenty of them to choose from anyway.)
I've played a LOT of clerics in my day, and I've used Dex as a dump stat quite often.
That said, my current cleric in Rob McCreary's game is a two weapon starknifer, and Dex is one of her best stats.
So it's not ALWAYS the best case, but clerics, as a general rule, need Dex less than other spellcasters.
Honestly... if the stats are doing their job, then determining the "dump stat" should ALWAYS be a hard choice.
When Clerics could take Heavy Armor, they didn't need Dex so much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Clerics can still take heavy armor. They just either:
A) Suck at fighting in it.
OR
B) Need to take a feat for it.
Which means "Clerics don't get Heavy Armor."
what about Sarenrae's Cleric Dervishes? they would defenitely love to have haste and cat's grace.
When Clerics could take Heavy Armor, they didn't need Dex so much.This, still?
Doesn't change a thing, though, about my points in this thread.
Was there a point besides the "lol, Clerics get healing and Wizards don't" cop out?
|
Creative Director
|
Was there a point besides the "lol, Clerics get healing and Wizards don't" cop out?
When Clerics could take Heavy Armor, they didn't need Dex so much.This, still?
Doesn't change a thing, though, about my points in this thread.
Yes, the point is me trying to explain the philosophical reasons why we didn't give clerics all of the ability score buff spells. If you're more interested in being snarky, I've got plenty of other things to keep me busy other than taking part in this thread.
You know, people could make other threads like this one, asking the reason why spell X or spell Y is not in character Z spells list. Cat's Grace is only one example. Sometimes you just have to make a choice based on flavor or gameplay mechanics, or both. If you don't like it, ask to your GM if he can give you access to Cat's Grace as a cleric spell (I, as a GM, could accept such a thing, like in the case of a elf or halfling cleric). After all, he's the one who can have the last word on anything.
|
|
Even with medium armor, it's not exactly a prime stat. And Heavy is only a feat away.
When Clerics could take Heavy Armor, they didn't need Dex so much.
Actually, I can see plenty of good reason and flavor for a Cleric to have Cat's Grace. Imagine a chaplin-like priest "blessing" an archer unit before battle for their arrows to fly straight and the Powers That Be guiding the archers aim. Or the many faiths that might prize agility, grace, acrobatics, trickery, sneakiness, or deception over brute strengh/toughness or whatever. Or a cloistered (D&D) monk-like order that focuses on mastering bodily and spiritual perfection, almost like a religious "psionic" philosophy.
It actually makes more sense for priests to have it than it does for arcanists, in my opinion.
Personally, I kind of wish that all the stat buffs where just one spell, like Resist Energy, and you just picked the one you wanted at the time.
Imagine a chaplin-like priest "blessing" an archer unit before battle for their arrows to fly straight and the Powers That Be guiding the archers aim.
Well he could just cast ''Bless'' or ''Aid'' on the archer. :P
I know what you meant, but I just don't think that not having Cat's Grace on his spells list is a big deal for the Cleric.
|
|
Imagine a chaplin-like priest "blessing" an archer unit before battle for their arrows to fly straight and the Powers That Be guiding the archers aim.Well he could just cast ''Bless'' or ''Aid'' on the archer. :P
I know what you meant, but I just don't think that not having Cat's Grace on his spells list is a big deal for the Cleric.
True, but I was thinking more along the lines of Mass Cat's Grace in this case.
Greetings.
This may be backpedaling a bit, but why would one even bother with medium armor as a cleric? At this point a dexterity based build seems like the way to go, in my eyes. A chain shirt provides a +4 to armor class right out of the gate, and allows for a +4 dexterity bonus, not to mention it's armor check penalty can be completely removed by the combination of a masterwork chain shirt and a trait that I can't quite remember the name of right now (I wanna say it's called Armor expert? Or Armor conditioning, somethin' like that.) Take this +4, coupled with a healthy dexterity of 16, and one of those nifty buckler shields, and you've got an Ac of 18 at first level. In a handful of levels you can pick up an agile weapon if you're a melee junkie, or you could just...grab a bow, and be a caster.
With all of this said, the lack of cat's grace kinda invalidates it...though a one level dip in urban barbarian could prove for an interesting build.
