Or unless you picked up 20 adamantine arrows, 20 cold iron arrows, and 20 silvered arrows to go with your +5 holy bow, while the melee warrior could only dream of three +5 holy longswords.
Anything with unbeatable DR (e.g. elementals) still had your number, though.
Also, adamantine arrows weren't available for purchase in any 3.5 game I played in, but I understand that's not everyone's game.
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Or unless you picked up 20 adamantine arrows, 20 cold iron arrows, and 20 silvered arrows to go with your +5 holy bow, while the melee warrior could only dream of three +5 holy longswords.Anything with unbeatable DR (e.g. elementals) still had your number, though.
Also, adamantine arrows weren't available for purchase in any 3.5 game I played in, but I understand that's not everyone's game.
Elementals were just killer though, in general.
Yes, the big advantage of archers was that they could get different ammunition types for different foes, and this fairly cheaply. How often were you going to need dragon-bane arrows? Not often, but five in your quiver would always cover your back, and you were not likely to need more.
The downside of this is that ammunition is expended, use once and then it's gone, so it gets expensive. All the same, even if you are left a +1 bonus behind the melee characters, versatility makes up for a lot.
A pathfinder archer is a lot better than a 3.5 archer. In 3.5 they sucked. Almost anything with DR laughed at you, unless you were allowed splat books.Or unless you picked up 20 adamantine arrows, 20 cold iron arrows, and 20 silvered arrows to go with your +5 holy bow, while the melee warrior could only dream of three +5 holy longswords.
Not every enemy will be evil.
I'd forgotten about the advantage of various types of ammo. A cheap way of making sure you can get past damage reduction. Used very effectively by the archer in my LoF campaign.
Adam, an archer should be increasing Dexterity and only getting a Strength increase if they find or choose to purchase a belt that increases both Dex and Str. The key to the archer is how easy it is for them to make full attacks and how many arrows they can get off with a full attack. An archer can get off 5 arrows at their highest attack bonus if they have Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Haste and Bow Spirit. Then they get their iterative attacks. With that many attacks, it's much more important to increase the chances of hitting and of confirming threats.
It's probably important to note that archers get the Greater Bracers of Archery for 25,000gp giving them a +2 competence bonus to attack and +1 competence to damage.
The archer expended 65% more wealth on his Bow than the melee user. Flexibility in ammunition might make up for this, but that too is costly. This disparity is probably much higher, as a L8 weapon probably has a +3 effective enhancement bonus, the L12 closer to the +5, L16 at +7 or +8, and a L20 at least a +8, if not +10.
This is true, but also bear in mind that as you don't actually want to get into melee that much, armour costs will be lower which help make up a little of the difference.
The archer expended 65% more wealth on his Bow than the melee user. Flexibility in ammunition might make up for this, but that too is costly. This disparity is probably much higher, as a L8 weapon probably has a +3 effective enhancement bonus, the L12 closer to the +5, L16 at +7 or +8, and a L20 at least a +8, if not +10.
Though it is true that you can't upgrade a weapon to a masterwork weapon, I see no rule anywhere stating you can't later increase the strength modifier of a composite bow. It would be as simple as adding another layer of laminate or tightening the pull of the string in some other fashion.
As such, I don't believe an archer has to spend any more than a few hundred gold than anyone else (and even then, that's only due to the strength modifier).
I think a lot of this talk about archers being overpowered is really sad. In 3.5, archers were considered a trap. You couldn't keep up for damage with melee characters by any stretch, and they require so many feats to remain effective while all warriors need is Power Attack. Even in Pathfinder I find myself building melee characters and wondering what to give them after Power Attack.
The one thing they did manage to do effectively was deal fairly continual damage, since they could almost always full attack. However the amount of feats, equipment, and specialization it took to match other characters in their damage was astounding.
A strength 18 fighter has a +5 to hit, and 2d6+6 damage (8-20 per hit).
A strength 16 / Dex 16 fighter has a +4 to hit with a bow and 1d8 damage (1-8) per hit, unless he purchases a 400 gp bow, which allows him to hit 1d8+3 (4-11) damage. Now the first fighter can drop his accuracy to +4 and add +3 damage with Power Attack (bringing his damage to 11-23) which is enough to kill almost anything within the CR 3 or less range in short order.
The archer on the other hand can use point blank within 30ft (meaning you're dangerously near the kill-zone) to get your +1/+1 bringing you to +5/5-12, but to remain competitive you need to use Rapid Shot to get an extra attack, dropping your hit to +3/+3 which have about a 55% miss chance against an AC 15 opponent, but assuming both hit manage to your your damage to 10-24 which matches the melee fighters IF you land both hits.
However, if you now encounter an opponent who has Damage Reduction, you're screwed. Let's say a skeleton since you can run into them any ol' time. The skeleton has DR 5/bludgeoning, so both fighters will have trouble with them. The archer's average damage drops per hit, so assuming both hits land he has a 0-12 damage potential (yes 0* to 12), while the fighter's damage per hit remains 6-17.
You also need Precise Shot to fire into melee, leaving you with a -4 penalty to hit (dropping your accuracy to -1/-1 with rapid shot), which is a 3rd feat. To keep your damage up, you'll manyshot as well, and Deadly Aim.
The 2 handed fighter needs Power Attack, which he has. If he just wants to spend feats on his favorite fighting style, he could just invest in Weapon Focus, Cleave (get an extra hit in), and so forth. But really he just needs a Strength and Power Attack.
A 20th level fighter beginning with a 15 strength can easily pull a 30 strength by 20th level (+5 level, +6 item, +4 wish or manual), giving a +10 hit/+15 damage. His weapon training gives him +5 hit / +5 damage. Greater Weapon Specialization gives him +2 hit / +4 damage, Power Attack gives him -6 hit / +18 damage. A +5 weapon gives him +5 hit / +5 damage.
The fighter's attack routine is: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 at 2d6+47 damage per strike, or a minimum of 245 damage if all the attacks hit. The assumes a +5 weapon and a haste spell for an extra attack. He can be under the effect of the 1st level spell enlarge person to push his damage AND reach even further without a loss of accuracy. He also has plenty of feats left for stuff like critical feats.
The archer cannot match that. It's just not possible within the rules as they are written, because you can never get that much static damage on your arrow, nor can you focus on a single ability score for attack and damage, and you need to invest more in feats: At least 3 more feats (Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim) more than the Greatsword wielder to remain competent.
Archers are not overpowered in the least.
The archer expended 65% more wealth on his Bow than the melee user. Flexibility in ammunition might make up for this, but that too is costly. This disparity is probably much higher, as a L8 weapon probably has a +3 effective enhancement bonus, the L12 closer to the +5, L16 at +7 or +8, and a L20 at least a +8, if not +10.Though it is true that you can't upgrade a weapon to a masterwork weapon, I see no rule anywhere stating you can't later increase the strength modifier of a composite bow. It would be as simple as adding another layer of laminate or tightening the pull of the string in some other fashion.
As such, I don't believe an archer has to spend any more than a few hundred gold than anyone else (and even then, that's only due to the strength modifier).
Not to sound like a douche, but there's no rule that says you can either. The trait of a composite longbow, not an enhancement. The craft rules even show the DC to craft a composite longbow is DC 15 + 2 for every +1 strength bonus you want it to support; so yes, I believe it's just like masterwork weapons.
You gotta buy 'em separately.
The archer expended 65% more wealth on his Bow than the melee user. Flexibility in ammunition might make up for this, but that too is costly. This disparity is probably much higher, as a L8 weapon probably has a +3 effective enhancement bonus, the L12 closer to the +5, L16 at +7 or +8, and a L20 at least a +8, if not +10.Though it is true that you can't upgrade a weapon to a masterwork weapon, I see no rule anywhere stating you can't later increase the strength modifier of a composite bow. It would be as simple as adding another layer of laminate or tightening the pull of the string in some other fashion.
As such, I don't believe an archer has to spend any more than a few hundred gold than anyone else (and even then, that's only due to the strength modifier).
"All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating.."
I think that shows the intent of you take it as it is. There is also the issue of people who are not strong enough to meet the strength mod for the bow taking penalties. If you could make the bow(pull of the bow) stronger, then it makes sense that you could make it weaker. There was also a bow in the MIC that adjusted to your strength. If you could do this without cost there would be no reason for that bow. By RAW there is no rule against it, but there are signs to show it is designed stay a certain way.
In my last 3.5 game our Scout archer started with a 14 Str. After a couple levels she invested in a Masterwork Darkwood Mighty (+2) Composite Bow. She used that bow all the way up to 20th level (yes we played all the way from 1 to 20). At the end it was a +5 Holy Evil Outsider Bane Icy Burst Darkwood Mighty (+2) Composite Bow.
She did get a Str enhancing item as she leveled (found, not bought), but never bothered to spend thousands of GP just to squeeze a few more points of damage out of her bow. The extra Str did help a few times when she was hit with some Str drain.
Against our primary opponents at the time (demons) she was an absolute terror.
A 20th level fighter beginning with a 15 strength can easily pull a 30 strength by 20th level (+5 level, +6 item, +4 wish or manual), giving a +10 hit/+15 damage. His weapon training gives him +5 hit / +5 damage. Greater Weapon Specialization gives him +2 hit / +4 damage, Power Attack gives him -6 hit / +18 damage. A +5 weapon gives him +5 hit / +5 damage.
The fighter's attack routine is: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 at 2d6+47 damage per strike, or a minimum of 245 damage if all the attacks hit. The assumes a +5 weapon and a haste spell for an extra attack. He can be under the effect of the 1st level spell enlarge person to push his damage AND reach even further without a loss of accuracy. He also has plenty of feats left for stuff like critical feats.
The archer cannot match that.
20th level Ranger: +39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (1d8+31/19-20 x3) = 284 if all shots hit. Note that the first attack shoots 2 arrows.
And the Ranger will almost always get in a full attack where the fighter often has to move.
Admittedly, that includes a +10 to hit and +10 damage that applies to only 7 targets per day.
Not included: twice per day the ranger can full attack with an additional +4 to hit on each attack then take a move action and hide.
...
Could you please go into detail?
There is no penalty for using a bow with a higher strength rating than you can currently draw, and hence no reason not to have your custom bow made stronger than you can achieve when you first invest in it. What, after all, is an extra 500gp when you are splashing out thousands? Once that is spent, you are good for a strength of up to 20.
There is no penalty for using a bow with a higher strength rating than you can currently draw, and hence no reason not to have your custom bow made stronger than you can achieve when you first invest in it. What, after all, is an extra 500gp when you are splashing out thousands? Once that is spent, you are good for a strength of up to 20.
Sorry Dabbler, you are wrong there. See the bold line below.
Longbow, Composite
Description: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.
For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
...Could you please go into detail?
As mentioned previously, Manyshot and Rapid Shot for feats plus Haste and Bow Spirit for spells.
To Hit:
+20 BAB
+5 Dex 20
+3 Belt of +6 Str and +6 Dex
+2 Wishes for +4 Dex
+5 Weapon
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Bracers Archery Greater
+1 Haste
+1 Point Blank Shot
+10 Ranger's Focus
-2 Rapid Shot
-6 Deadly Aim
---
+42
Damage:
+3 Str 16
+3 Belt of +6 Str and +6 Dex
+5 Weapon
+1 Bracers Archery, Greater
+1 Point Blank Shot
+10 Ranger's Focus
+12 Deadly Aim
---
+35
Hmm... original numbers were a bit off.
Pardon me, but what do you mean by Ranger's Focus?
The ranger's favored enemy thing?
I don't know all the ins and outs to Pathfinder, maybe I missed that?
It's from the APG and replaces the ranger's favored enemy ability.
If you are playing an adventure path, it's probably better to pick favored enemy as you will have a good idea what enemies are good to pick. In a general campaign where you don't know what you are going to face, Ranger's Focus is probably better.
Pardon me, but what do you mean by Ranger's Focus?
The ranger's favored enemy thing?
I don't know all the ins and outs to Pathfinder, maybe I missed that?
It's from the APG and replaces the ranger's favored enemy ability.
If you are playing an adventure path, it's probably better to pick favored enemy as you will have a good idea what enemies are good to pick. In a general campaign where you don't know what you are going to face, Ranger's Focus is probably better.
Holy Magikarp Batman! lol
Ranger Focus is SICK. XD
...
Holy Carp Batman!
Ranger Focus is SICK! XD
...Holy Carp Batman!
Ranger Focus is SICK! XD
Wait until you combine Guide with Skirmisher ... a thing of beauty it is. *sniffles*
...Holy Carp Batman!
Ranger Focus is SICK! XD
1/day, +2 to to hit and damage against a single target.
Every third level adds and additional target per day. At 5 and every fifth level, additional +2 to hit and damage.
Good at higher levels, weak at lower levels. And weaker in APs. When module 2 has a bunch of gnolls or module 4 has a bunch of giants or there are a bunch of drow or humans throughout the AP, a ranger with a normal racial enemy will do better.
...Holy Carp Batman!
Ranger Focus is SICK! XD
1/day, +2 to to hit and damage against a single target.
Every third level adds and additional target per day. At 5 and every fifth level, additional +2 to hit and damage.
Good at higher levels, weak at lower levels. And weaker in APs. When module 2 has a bunch of gnolls or module 4 has a bunch of giants or there are a bunch of drow or humans throughout the AP, a ranger with a normal racial enemy will do better.
Ohhhh...so it's only x/day? Pfft, lame. =P
You should have commented on Paladin Archers then, since "EVIL" is a pretty common enemy alignment, and smite evil can completely thrash them no matter what you're using (but archery paladins actually are really mean), but it's not because archery is really mean - it's because archery paladins are mean. ;)
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Windwall, why is this even up for debate still :P
Sure if everyone talks about "Well -if- this happens then.."
Sure we can argue in circles about if it does or doesn't have disadvantages or advantages, but most of the "damage dealing" is comparable, the classes that do it are normally varied in background/intent/etc.
This. There are many things that shove it to archers in 3.5 (and in typical fashion, a longer list that shoves it to them in PF). DR isn't one of them. Of course if DR bothers you at all you have worse problems, but it's there.A pathfinder archer is a lot better than a 3.5 archer. In 3.5 they sucked. Almost anything with DR laughed at you, unless you were allowed splat books.Or unless you picked up 20 adamantine arrows, 20 cold iron arrows, and 20 silvered arrows to go with your +5 holy bow, while the melee warrior could only dream of three +5 holy longswords.
Of course ranged weaponry sticks it to melee weaponry in real life as well -- please note this is why ranged weaponry (and better ranged weaponry) was invented -- to stick someone else while they can't stick you back.
Melee is for chums*.
(*theoritically speaking)
i never play just an archer. I get some gloves of storing and/or Quick Draw, Weapon Finess and a rapier. (as well as all the PBS feat tree) a fighter gets LOTS of feats, so you can load up on ranged and melee combat (for when they get close) and get a magic item that lets you fly 2 or 3 times a day.
when you are faced with an obstical the answer will Awalys be
Over,
Under,
Around,
or Through.
(when im an archer i prefer over)