Oracle of Calistria - Passion Mystery


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When I picked up my Advanced Player's Guide, I was really looking forward to seeing all the new oracle mysteries they were going to include. Particularly, I wanted to see what they had for my favorite goddess, Calistria.

Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

I really wanted to play an oracle of Calistria, so I sat down and looked over the other mysteries. And, a few hours later, I'd pulled abilities from each of the other mysteries, refluffed them, and created myself a new mystery. I had a little trouble naming it (Love, Lust, Charm, Passion, Hot Sexyness) but eventually settled on Passion as the most generic possible. I posted it in the Errata thread when someone else mentioned a similar disapointement, and got a little feedback then, but now I'm back with a revised version to show here in the thread where this sort of thing is actually supposed to be posted. So, without further adu:

***

Passion

Deities: Calistria, Shelyn

Class Skills: An oracle with the passion mystery adds Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Perform to her list of class skills.

Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Touch of Idiocy (4th), Suggestion (6th), Charm Monster (8th), Telepathic Bond (10th), Symbol of Persuasion (12th), Mass Suggestion (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Sympathy (18).

Revelations: An oracle with the passion mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.

Beauty Smiles (Su): You channel the divine beauty of your goddess, moving the hearts of those who behold you. You receive a +1 bonus to the DC of all Charm spells (that is, spells with the Charm subtype). At 6th level, this bonus increases to +2, at 12th level, the bonus increases to +3, and at 18th level the bonus increases to +4. This ability overlaps (does not stack) with the effect of the Spell Focus feat.

Graceful Avoidance (Su): Your graceful movement grants you the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws.

Healing Touch (Su): You can heal wounds on a creature with a touch. This power heals 1d6 points of damage +1 point for every two oracle levels you possess. If used against an undead creature, it instead deals that amount of positive energy damage. At 7th level, you may expend two uses of this ability to heal a creature of 1 negative level or 1d4 points of ability damage. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Kiss of Life (Su): An Oracle with this mystery may kiss the lips of a recently slain creature, restoring it to life. This ability functions like the Breath of Life spell, except that it will function on creatures slain up to 1 round per 2 oracle levels ago and, in addition to 5d8 + caster level healing, this mystery also restores 1 point of ability damage and 1 negative level, allowing creatures slain by negative levels and having an ability reduced to 0 can also be brought back in this fashion. This ability can also be used to harm an undead creature (must succeed a grapple check, receive a will save, etc). Finally, you may discharge a use to make yourself immune to a succubus's Energy Drain for one round per oracle level. At 11th level you may use this ability once per day; you may use this ability one additional time per day per four levels (twice at 15, thrice at 19). You must be 11th level or higher before taking this revelation.

Love's Guidance (Su): You may add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom modifier on all Wisdom-base checks. You may also add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom when making a Will Save verses a spell or effect of the Charm sub-school.

Mantle of Love (Su): You envelop yourself in the divine love of your goddess, who protects you from harm. You gain a +4 armor bonus. At 7th level, and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 13th level, this armor grants you DR 5/Piercing. You can use this mantle for 10 minutes per day per oracle level. The duration does not need to be consecutive; it can instead be spent in 10-minute increments.

Pain and Pleasure (Su): Once per day, with a touch attack, you deal 1d6 points of damage per 2 oracle levels you possess (max 10d6) as the spell Vampiric Touch. You are healed for the amount dealt. Furthermore, the target must make a Fort save 10 + 1/2 Oracle level + Cha mod vs Nausea for 1 round. At 11th level, the Nausea lasts for 2 rounds. At 7th level, you may use this ability twice per day; at 14th level you may use this ability 3 times per day.

Terrible Beauty (Su): You channel the terrible, wonderful beauty of your goddess to harm those who look upon you. At 7th level, the target must make Fort save 10 + 1/2 Oracle level + Cha mod vs Blindness. At 14th level, vs Stun and Blind. At 20th level, this functions as a Phantasmal Killer spell; those that pass their saves are Blinded and those that fail the first save but pass the second save are Stunned and blinded. You must be 7th Level before taking this revelation.

Trust Me (Su): Once per day, you can reattempt a previously failed Bluff or Diplomacy check, even if a second attempt would normally not be allowed. If that check would normally receive a penalty for being tried again, you do not take that penalty.

Wrenching Heartache (Su): Once per day, as a standard action, you can inflict a terrible attack on the psyche of a creature within close range. The target creature suffers 1d4 damage per oracle level. The damage is untyped, and can be halved by a successful Will save, DC 10 +1/2 oracle level + Cha mod. Mindless creatures (creatures without an int score) are immune to this attack, but creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are not. Although the title implies it, the creature need not have a cardiovascular system to be affected, or even true emotions - this ability affects any creature with an intelligence score. You can use this ability one additional time per day at 5th level and every five levels beyond that.

Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, your connection to divine love allows you to take 20 on any Charisma based skill. You become immune to all spells of the Charm subschool, and receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your charisma modifier. Finally, the oracle gains the Timeless Body ability.

***

Most of these abilities are either direct copies or mild alterations on existing revelations, with a refluf. Those that aren't I tried to balance with existing revelations. I also tried to cover a broad interpretation, from pretty shiny Shelyn to darker harsher Calistria.

So, thoughts? Balance issues? Are any of these too weak to be worth taking? Are any way too good?

-- Zelgadas Greyward


This all looks pretty solid and balanced; I don't see any glaring imbalances or anything.
It'd be fun to see how it plays; Calistra is one of the more interesting deities in Pathfinder.


As is, some of it is a bit too cherry-picked and some of it not powerful enough. I'd suggest the following changes.

Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Rage (4th), Suggestion (6th), Heroism (8th), Charm Monster (10th), Symbol of Persuasion (12th), Insanity (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Sympathy (18).

Revelations: An oracle with the passion mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.

Beauty Smiles (Su): You channel the divine beauty of your goddess, moving the hearts of those who behold you. You receive a +1 bonus to the DC of all Enchantment spells. At 7th level, this bonus increases to +2, and at 14th level, the bonus increases to +3. This ability overlaps (does not stack) with the effect of the Spell Focus feat.

Graceful Avoidance (Su): unchanged

Healing Touch (Su): [Life Link or Combat Healer]

Kiss of Life (Su): unchanged

Overwhelming Passion [instead of Love's Guidance] (Su): You may also add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom when making a Will Save verses a spell or effect of the Charm sub-school. At 8th level, when you successfully counter a spell of the Charm sub-school, it returns back to the caster. At 14th level, if you successfully make your Will Save, the spell is considered to be successfully countered (thus returning it back to the caster).

Mantle of Love (Su): [you can’t have this AND graceful avoidance, which would be more class appropriate]

Pain and Pleasure (Su): [unchanged]

Terrible Beauty (Su): Once per day, you channel the terrible, wonderful beauty upon those who look upon you. This affects a number of targets you choose equal to your Charisma modifier and within 30 feet. At 1st level, the targets must make save 10+ ½ Oracle level + Cha vs. fortitude or be shaken for 1d4 round. At 7th level, the targets must save or be Shaken (for 2d4 rounds) and Stunned (for 1d4 rounds); on a successful save the targets are merely shaken for 1d4 rounds. At 14th level, vs Shaken (2d4 rounds), Stun (1d4 rounds) and Blind and within 60 feet; on a successful save the targets are shaken for 1d4 rounds. At 20th level, this functions as a Phantasmal Killer spell; those that pass their saves are shaken (2d4 rounds) and those that fail the first save but pass the second save are also Stunned (1d4 rounds) and blinded.

Trust Me (Su): [unchanged]

Wrenching Heartache (Su): [IMO too similar to Terrible Beauty, so I would remove it]

Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The Oracle retains a link to the target as if the Oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per Oracle level.

Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, your connection to divine love allows you to take 20 on any Charisma based skill. You become immune to all spells of the Charm subschool, and receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your charisma modifier. Finally, all age penalties are removed and the Oracle gains the Timeless Body ability.


TheDoctor wrote:

As is, some of it is a bit too cherry-picked and some of it not powerful enough. I'd suggest the following changes.

... I'm unfamiliar with the term "cherry-picked". Please clarify.

TheDoctor wrote:


Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Rage (4th), Suggestion (6th), Heroism (8th), Charm Monster (10th), Symbol of Persuasion (12th), Insanity (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Sympathy (18).

I was trying to move _away_ from the spell list from the Charm domain; you've moved the list back towards that. I sort of like Rage at 4th level, but my rational for touch of idiocy was "Love/Lust makes people stupid."

TheDoctor wrote:


Healing Touch (Su): [Life Link or Combat Healer]

Yup, that's what I was afraid of. An earlier version of Healing Touch was "Gain Lay on Hands as a Paladin of your level. At 7th Level and 14th Level, gain a merch from the 3rd level and 6th level Mercy lists respectively. But I was concerned about that version being too powerful, so I knocked it down.

I've already got an alternative called "Love Link" that works like Life Link, except that it has an additional requirement (some form of romantic relationship with the targets).

TheDoctor wrote:


Overwhelming Passion [instead of Love's Guidance] (Su): You may also add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom when making a Will Save verses a spell or effect of the Charm sub-school. At 8th level, when you successfully counter a spell of the Charm sub-school, it returns back to the caster. At 14th level, if you successfully make your Will Save, the spell is considered to be successfully countered (thus returning it back to the caster).

See, this one I don't get. This one was based on Guiding Star from the Heavens mystery. I removed the time/location restriction, but changed "add Wis to Cha" to "replace Wis with Cha" to weaken it, and replaced the free metamagic with the bonus to saves vs Charm.

Counterspelling is something my gaming group almost never uses, and as far as I'm aware isn't all that common (but YMMV) so this seems far weaker to me. Were you trying to make this one stronger, or tone it down?

TheDoctor wrote:


Mantle of Love (Su): [you can’t have this AND graceful avoidance, which would be more class appropriate]

Why not? One replaces (not stacks) Dex with Cha, which (yes) is great. This one, on the other hand, replaces Armor, which is an entirely different bonus, and only for one hour per day (which, yes, becomes irrelivent at higher levels when you can use it all day, but at low levels (where its most useful) its a small bonus for short periods of time).

Also, this one allows the oracle of a love/lust/passion goddess to walk around pretty, flowing dresses or robes (since she can't wear physical armor) and not get killed in the first encounter. Also, this means that the oracle can never use magical armor without giving up the use of this ability. I've playtested an oracle with both of these abilites (at 1st and 3rd level) and she had a comparable AC with the rest of the party.

TheDoctor wrote:


Terrible Beauty (Su): Once per day, you channel the terrible, wonderful beauty upon those who look upon you. This affects a number of targets you choose equal to your Charisma modifier and within 30 feet. At 1st level, the targets must make save 10+ ½ Oracle level + Cha vs. fortitude or be shaken for 1d4 round. At 7th level, the targets must save or be Shaken (for 2d4 rounds) and Stunned (for 1d4 rounds); on a successful save the targets are merely shaken for 1d4 rounds. At 14th level, vs Shaken (2d4 rounds), Stun (1d4 rounds) and Blind and within 60 feet; on a successful save the targets are shaken for 1d4 rounds. At 20th level, this functions as a Phantasmal Killer spell; those that pass their saves are shaken (2d4 rounds) and those that fail the first save but pass the second save are also Stunned (1d4 rounds) and blinded.

Wow. I like that. But that seems a bit powerful to me. Although, I suppose that the 7th level only ones ARE pretty powerful. Hmm. What does everyone else think? My less powerful version or the Doctor's more powerful version?

TheDoctor wrote:


Wrenching Heartache (Su): [IMO too similar to Terrible Beauty, so I would remove it]

Again, why? The Heavens mystery has Dweller in Darkness (Phantasmal Killer at 11th level), Interstellar Void (1d6 Ice per level to one target), and Spray of Shooting Stars (1d4 fire per oracle level, 5ft radius burst). Most of the others have at least two "attack" base revelations.

Wrenching Heartache (based on Lore's "Brain Drain" ability) is the ONLY direct damage ability I gave Passion, and Terrible Beauty is far less powerful than Dweller in Darkness (until 20th level anyway).

TheDoctor wrote:


Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The Oracle retains a link to the target as if the Oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per Oracle level.

Oh, I like that. Maybe use this to replace Healing Touch, since that one sucks as is?

TheDoctor wrote:


Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, your connection to divine love allows you to take 20 on any Charisma based skill. You become immune to all spells of the Charm subschool, and receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your charisma modifier. Finally, all age penalties are removed and the Oracle gains the Timeless Body ability.

Removing age penalties is nice. If no one else thinks that addition is overpowered, then I'm all for it.

I've been told that I should submit this to the Wayfinder 4 submission thread when it is posted, so I want to get plenty of feedback before that happens. I'd really like this to see publication in Wayfinder, since I think it's something that was glaringly absent from the APG. I'm sure lots of Calistria fans will appreciate it.


I REALLY like how this is coming together. Calistria is one of my favorites and its nice to see her getting some love (HA!).

Keep up the good work!


Spell List: First, IMO, rage works better with your theme of being an Oracle of Passion. After all there is the passion of anger, passion of love, passion of obsession/interest. Second, is the GM plug-and-play principle I try to follow, which is when creating a new something, generally copy. The reason being that it has already been play tested and, hopefully, balanced.

Overwhelming Passion [instead of Love's Guidance] (Su): My suggestion was based on the replacement title more than the current ability. If the character has passion spilling out of them, then it should be harder to dominate that passion. Yes, the middle ability is a counter-spell. However, that builds to the capstone ability of this revelation: basically a free counter-spell. It counter-spells for your character without them either having to 1) actually undertake a counter-spell action, or 2) spend a spell. It is essentially a limited spell-turning. In IMO, this actually makes the ability more powerful since as a PC I can't remember the last time we had to make a general wisdom check, which is also why I replaced "replace" with add.

Mantle of Love (Su): First, in the official Oracles, I do not remember an Oracle that receives both an 1) add ac revelation, and a 2) replace Dex for Cha revelation. However, I might be wrong. Second, a PC can have a pretty dress or dashing tunic that is really armor or grants an armor bonus. That is why I prefer the mechanics of "graceful avoidance" over that of "mantle of love".

Terrible Beauty (Su): I read this ability as originally written to affect multiple targets at unlimited range. If, as written, it affects only a single target within 30/60 feet, then I would just add an explanation to that effect and explicitly state that this follows gaze attack rules. [suddenly scenes from Zoolander fill my head: BLUE STEEL]

Wrenching Heartache (Su): That's just my opinion. I just don't care for untyped damage. However, if you insist, consider making the range 100 ft and making it a mind-affecting ability. And, adding that unless a creature makes the save it receives the following conditions for one round based on alignment: Lawful is dazed. Neutral (neither lawful nor chaotic) is confused. Chaotic enters a rage for 1 round and subsequently fatigued for 1 round (special barbarian class abilities may not be used for these 2 rounds).

Inspiring Heat (Su): I disagree with you that healing touch stinks. However, if you were to out-and-out eliminate it, then to this ability I would add the following as a 5th level kicker:

"A barbarian (or character under the effects of Rage) under the effect of this inspiration receives 2 additional rounds of rage. A bard (or character that makes magical performances) receives 2 additional rounds of performance."

Final Revelation - Passion Immortal: The "eternal youth" aspect can be nerfed if a character actually gets to play at 20th level and it found to be unbalancing. My only concern would be if a PF:Epic is released and people can start out at 20th level. The big reward of youth becomes a min/max mechanic. Then again, a 20th level starting Monk or Druid could exploit the same thing.

Sovereign Court

When you say 'wisdom based checks' can you clarify? Skill checks AND ability shecks?


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
When you say 'wisdom based checks' can you clarify? Skill checks AND ability shecks?

... whoops, typo. That should "wisdom based SKILL checks" There aren't any Wisdom based checks except for when the DM makes a player make a common sense check to avoid doing something stupid.

There's another one in Lore that changes Int to Cha for all Knowledge skills, so I combined the two.

The Doctor wrote:


Terrible Beauty (Su): I read this ability as originally written to affect multiple targets at unlimited range. If, as written, it affects only a single target within 30/60 feet, then I would just add an explanation to that effect and explicitly state that this follows gaze attack rules.

**rereads yours, and then mine** Oh. Crap, you're right, I didn't have the specifics in there. Nor durations, come to think of it. Yours is actually MUCH more balanced. See, I was assuming that the stun only lasted 1 rnd, but I never actually _said_ that. I was also assuming 30ft, as per the Nymph's stunning glance, so that's the same.

^^ This is why I wanted to do this - that would have been terribly broken without specific limitations.


Speaking of which, a question for anyone who can answer it:

In what section (Homebrew, Rules Questions, Conversions, etc) is the Wayfinder 4 submission thread likely to be posted?

I've been keeping an eye on the threads in Homebrew, but it occured to me that if it was posted elsewhere, I might miss it.

Anyway, thanks in advance to anyone who can let me know about this.

Liberty's Edge

This is just a suggestion, but I think a "Passion" mystery would do well to include Cayden Cailean as well. He presides over appropriate domains, and could easily be described as one of the most passionate deities.

Just my two cents.


You know I would suggest that some inspiration could be drawn from both the Nymph and the Succubus.

The Blinding Beauty ability and the unearthly grace both fit in general (maybe limit the Unearthly grace to a bonus = 2+ 1/4 class level?).

Maybe the following as well (a bit of inspiration from the succubus):

Eye of the Beholder: Once per day choose one target within 30 feet. They view you as if you are the most important person in their world. This functions basically as Charm monster with the added perk that if you are attacked the target of this revelation immidiately gains the benefits of both a rage and good hope spell and must make another will save or immediate attack the thing that attacked you. This ability can not be chosen before 7th level. At 14th level you gain another use of this ability per day.

*******

The wording is sloppy but the idea is there.


Orannis wrote:

This is just a suggestion, but I think a "Passion" mystery would do well to include Cayden Cailean as well. He presides over appropriate domains, and could easily be described as one of the most passionate deities.

Sure, he's into lusty wenches, so he fits the archtype.

But this does bring up an issue I am having. The Name.

Calistria is a goddess of Lust (amoung other things) so that's what I was trying to focus on. However, no Oracle mystery is that limited in scope, so I opened it up to the idea of Love and Lust, to include Shelyn, and that combination covers pretty much any fertility deity (Aphrodite, Eros, Isis, Hathor, et). That was the archtype I wanted.

But what do you call that? Love/Lust? Just Love makes it sound too "nice" for Calistria. Just Lust makes it sound too "nasty" for Shelyn. Charm? We already have a domain with that name, and so far no mystery and domain have the same name (which also technically negates Love and Lust). What word can describe sexual attraction and still mean either love or lust?

The only thing I could think of was Passion. Not "I feel passionately about politics" but "I feel like making passionate love to someone."

So, in addition to everything else, if anyone has a better idea for a name, please post it. Because I can't think of one, and I've been working on this since the APG was released.


Abraham spalding wrote:

You know I would suggest that some inspiration could be drawn from both the Nymph and the Succubus.

The Blinding Beauty ability and the unearthly grace both fit in general (maybe limit the Unearthly grace to a bonus = 2+ 1/4 class level?).

Well, the "Terrible Beauty" ability was supposed to emulate the Nymph's blinding beauty, except that it scaled by level.

Unearthly Grace is built into the Final Revelation (Cha to all saves) as I figured it was too powerful alone.

Abraham spalding wrote:


Maybe the following as well (a bit of inspiration from the succubus):

Eye of the Beholder: Once per day choose one target within 30 feet. They view you as if you are the most important person in their world. This functions basically as Charm monster with the added perk that if you are attacked the target of this revelation immidiately gains the benefits of both a rage and good hope spell and must make another will save or immediate attack the thing that attacked you. This ability can not be chosen before 7th level. At 14th level you gain another use of this ability per day.

This sounds pretty neat, but I don't know how well it balances with the others. It's a 7th level ability, so being fairly strong is okay, but it might be a little too strong. Also, I already have a 7th level power (Terrible Beauty).

Of course, if people think this one is balanced and better than Terrible Beauty, then I could always swap it out. Thoughts?


Zelgadas Greyward wrote:

So, in addition to everything else, if anyone has a better idea for a name, please post it. Because I can't think of one, and I've been working on this since the APG was released.

Longing ? Sensuality ? Agape ? Adulation ? Ardour ? Adoration ? Desire ?

BTW, I love the idea ;)


Loengrin wrote:

Longing ? Sensuality ? Agape ? Adulation ? Ardour ? Adoration ? Desire ?

BTW, I love the idea ;)

Mystery of Desire. Yeah. I like it. Although, it runs into the same problem of "I desire money," "I desire power," or "I desire a pizza"

Mystery of Ardour sounds nice, but I'm not sure how many people are familiar with that term.

Those are my two favorites. What does everyone else think? Desire or Ardour? Or something else?


Any chance you'd add this to the Pathfinder Database?


Pathfinder Database Pimp wrote:
Any chance you'd add this to the Pathfinder Database?

**looks at Pathfinder Database**

Huh. Didn't know that existed before. Very cool.

Anyway, sure, once it's done and assuming that there isn't some sort of conflict with me submitting it there and to Wayfinder 4.

Since you're interested, care to help rename it? Passion, Desire, or Ardour?


Zelgadas Greyward wrote:
Pathfinder Database Pimp wrote:
Any chance you'd add this to the Pathfinder Database?

**looks at Pathfinder Database**

Huh. Didn't know that existed before. Very cool.

Anyway, sure, once it's done and assuming that there isn't some sort of conflict with me submitting it there and to Wayfinder 4.

Since you're interested, care to help rename it? Passion, Desire, or Ardour?

My vote is for Ardour, since it was what I was thinking until I read the post where it was suggested. Gamers are pretty well read individuals. Most will understand it. If not..there is always the interweb :)

Greg


Ardour or Passion - both work well. Might I suggest that a linky be posted once this is finalized and made available in the PF Database?

Liberty's Edge

Thanks so much for this writeup! A tweaked version of it is currently in the hands of one of my players. She was unhappy as a cleric mechanically, but liked the character, so I let her convert over to an oracle instead. She's much happier now. ^_^

Jeremy Puckett

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's always refreshing to see great homebrew. This is really well written, and it honestly wouldn't have seemed odd if someone had told me this came straight from Paizo.

As for the name, I think you're worrying yourself a bit too much. I'd say Passion fits it perfectly.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
Zelgadas Greyward wrote:
Graceful Avoidance (Su): Your graceful movement grants you the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws.

This is more powerful then the natural oracles similar mystery. The nature oracle only receives Cha to Armor and not saves.

Liberty's Edge

Galnörag wrote:
Zelgadas Greyward wrote:
Graceful Avoidance (Su): Your graceful movement grants you the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws.
This is more powerful then the natural oracles similar mystery. The nature oracle only receives Cha to Armor and not saves.

But it's identical to the oracle of lore's sidestep secret. Given the disparity between the two, I'd rather bring the nature oracle's ability up to the level of the lore oracle's, than the other way around.

Jeremy Puckett


hida_jiremi wrote:
Galnörag wrote:


This is more powerful then the natural oracles similar mystery. The nature oracle only receives Cha to Armor and not saves.

But it's identical to the oracle of lore's sidestep secret. Given the disparity between the two, I'd rather bring the nature oracle's ability up to the level of the lore oracle's, than the other way around.

Jeremy Puckett

**nods to Jeremy** What he said.

And thanks everyone. It's great to hear that your player likes this, hida_jiremi. I'm currently playing the class myself in my wife's game. I'm glad it's working out for your players too.


I have been chewing on this thread for a while...

One note about the differences between Nature and Lore's 'swap CHA for DEX ability...

Lore:
Adds to AC and Saves
Capped by Max Dex (of Armor)
Not lost when you lose DEX bonus

Nature:
Adds to AC only
Not capped by Max Dex (of Armor)
Lost when you would lose DEX (flatfooted, etc)

I would go with Lore's version for the simple fact that the Oracle should be a very physical person-Showing their personal beauty for Shelyn, and "Flaunt it if you've got it" for Calistrians. And with that, the armor restriction 'feels' right (pardon the pun).

Is Lore's version more powerful? Because of the bump to Saves, yes. FOr purely AC discussion, it depends. A 22 CHA Oracle in a Breastplate gets a total of +9 to AC with Lore, where the same Oracle would get +12 to AC (between Armor and "Dex"), but loses it from being surprised, etc.

GNOME


Hi! Is anyone still interested to this? I like it very much and would restart the discussion and offer my two pence...

First: I'd substitute Adoration at 2nd-level, Joyful Rapture (or Stay the Hand) at 6th level and Overwhelming Presence as 9th-level mystery spell.
Second: Why is it said that the oracle can't wear armor? This interests me, but I can't find a rule stating that.
I have to think a bit about the revelations, but most of them are great for me- although there are 11 of them and a mystery has normally 10.


Who is working on the Nymphomania Curse?


I'm not, sorry^^ I would prefer a Helpless Curse (prohibiting armors) or a Pacifist Curse (prohibiting weapons). They would both be great for an oracle like this.

So this is the list of spells I'd propose (great things the Ultimate books^^)

Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Honeyed Tongue (4th), Suggestion (6th), Charm Monster (8th), Stay the Hand (10th), Joyful Rapture (12th), Insanity (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Overwhelming Presence (18).

As for revelations: I'd keep Healing Touch as it is and substitute Inspiring Heat to Wrenching Heartache, with the suggested modifications. Maybe I'd add:

A Wild Rager barbarian under the effect of this power can end immediately his confused state.

For Mantle of Love, I'd precise that the armor boost functions just when the oracle is not wearing any armor.
Terrible Beauty and Overwhelming Passion can stay as proposed by The Doctor.
All the rest works just fine.

And "Passion" is the right name for me.


Suggested bonus skills: Bluff, Handle Animals, Intimidate and Perform.


Bardess wrote:


Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Honeyed Tongue (4th), Suggestion (6th), Charm Monster (8th), Stay the Hand (10th), Joyful Rapture (12th), Insanity (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Overwhelming Presence (18).

Argh, the copy/paste...

Actually, it should be:

Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Honeyed Tongue (4th), Suggestion (6th), Charm Monster (8th), Stay the Hand (10th), Joyful Rapture (12th), Mass Suggestion (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Overwhelming Presence (18).


Zelgadas Greyward wrote:

An earlier version of Healing Touch was "Gain Lay on Hands as a Paladin of your level. At 7th Level and 14th Level, gain a merch from the 3rd level and 6th level Mercy lists respectively. But I was concerned about that version being too powerful, so I knocked it down.

I've already got an alternative called "Love Link" that works like Life Link, except that it has an additional requirement (some form of romantic relationship with the targets).

[...]

Oh, I like that. Maybe use this to replace Healing Touch, since that one sucks as is?

One last suggestion (great UM!)^^

Love Heals, Love Hurts (Su):You can channel positive or negative energy like a cleric, using the Variant Channeling energy of Beauty/Love/Lust. You can use your energy only on living beings (not undead), and can't gain channeling feats regarding undead. You can normally gain channeling feats that alter the heal/harm effects on living beings.
You use your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the effects of channeled energy. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.


What about unnatural lust (bard 1, witch/wizard 2) and waves of ecstasy (bard 6, cleric/wizard/witch 7)?


Those would be good for Calistria, but less for Shelyn, IMHO... the mystery should be fit for both. ^_^


It's too bad that her inquisitors can't officially get those spells, kind of like how clerics sometimes get access to spells not on the list for worshiping a specific god, though I'm pretty sure that her write-up came before the inquisitor came out. Ah well, I can always pester my GM :D.

Pfft, Sudden Sting Fo' Life, yo!


I guess I'll raise the uses of "Love Heals, Love Hurts" to 3 + Cha bonus per day, to make up for the loss of power against undead. I had thought to add some mercies to compensate (Kobold Quarterly 14 had some splendid alternate mercies), but that way it would be sort of a double of "Terrible Beauty".
Maybe I'll post soon the stats of my own love oracle character. She did really well in my game.


Have you been able to play test the build?


More or less... but I don't say I made it thoroughly.


Bardess wrote:
I guess I'll raise the uses of "Love Heals, Love Hurts" to 3 + Cha bonus per day, to make up for the loss of power against undead.

**reads all of your Love Heals, Love Hurts stuff**

That... is brilliant! I love it!


Shalafi2412 wrote:
Have you been able to play test the build?

I've play-tested two builds in games - one kind, healer build, and one mean, mind-screw build.

The healer build I tested from 1st through 16th level.

The mind-screw build I've tested from 1st through 8th - still playing that game.


Bardess wrote:
Suggested bonus skills: Bluff, Handle Animals, Intimidate and Perform.

Oh, and FYI - I had Escape Artist in there for rope-use. That way a Bondage themed Oracle of Calistria would be all set.

I'm not sure I want to know why you included Handle Animal. I mean, there's kinky, and then there's... well, animals. :p


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Anyway, thanks to all of you who helped me with this. I just submitted the Passion Mystery to the Pathfinder Database. The version I submitted is based on the comments in this thread. I didn't take all suggestions, but I took a lot of them. Here's the final version:

Passion Mystery

Deities: Calistria, Shelyn, Cayden Cailean

Class Skills: An oracle with the passion mystery adds Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Perform to her list of class skills.

Bonus Spells: Charm Person (2nd), Honeyed Tongue* (4th), Suggestion (6th), Charm Monster (8th), Stay the Hand* (10th), Joyful Rapture** (12th), Waves of Ecstasy** (14th), Mass Charm Monster (16th), Overwhelming Presence** (18).

* This spell is found in the Advanced Players Guide.
** This spell is found in Ultimate Magic.

Revelations: An oracle with the passion mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.

Beauty Smiles (Su): You channel the divine beauty of your goddess, moving the hearts of those who behold you. You receive a +1 bonus to the DC of all Charm spells (that is, spells with the Charm subtype). At 14th level, this bonus increases to +2. This ability stacks with the effect of the Spell Focus feat if applicable.

Graceful Avoidance (Su): Your graceful movement grants you the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws.

Kiss of Life (Su): An Oracle with this mystery may kiss the lips of a recently slain creature, restoring it to life. This ability functions like the Breath of Life spell, except that it will function on creatures slain up to 1 round per 2 oracle levels ago and, in addition to 5d8 + caster level healing, this mystery also restores 1 point of ability damage and 1 negative level, allowing creatures slain by negative levels and having an ability reduced to 0 can also be brought back in this fashion. This ability can also be used to harm an undead creature (must succeed a grapple check, receive a will save, etc). Finally, you may discharge a use to make yourself immune to a succubus's Energy Drain for one round per oracle level. At 11th level you may use this ability once per day; you may use this ability one additional time per day per four levels (twice at 15, thrice at 19). You must be 11th level or higher before taking this revelation.

Love's Guidance (Su): You may add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom modifier on all Wisdom-based skill checks. You may also add your Charisma modifier to your Wisdom when making a Will Save verses a spell or effect of the Charm sub-school.

Love Heals, Love Hurts (Su): You can channel positive or negative energy like a cleric, using the Variant Channeling energy of Beauty/Love/Lust. You can use your energy only on living beings (not undead), and can't gain the benefits of any channeling feats regarding undead. You can only make use of channeling feats that alter the heal/harm effects on living beings.
You use your oracle level as your effective cleric level when determining the effects of channeled energy. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Mantle of Love (Su): When you are wearing no armor, you can instead envelop yourself in the divine love of your goddess (or god), who protects you from harm. You gain a +4 armor bonus (this does not stack with any armor bonus granted by any other means). At 7th level, and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 13th level, this armor grants you DR 5/Piercing. You can use this mantle for 10 minutes per day per oracle level. The duration does not need to be consecutive; it can instead be spent in 10-minute increments.

Pain and Pleasure (Su): Once per day, with a touch attack, you deal 1d6 points of damage per 2 oracle levels you possess (max 10d6) as the spell Vampiric Touch. You are healed for the amount dealt. Furthermore, the target must make a Fort save 10 + 1/2 Oracle level + Cha mod vs Nausea for 1 round. At 11th level, the Nausea lasts for 2 rounds. At 7th level, you may use this ability twice per day; at 14th level you may use this ability 3 times per day.

Terrible Beauty (Su): Once per day, you channel the terrible, wonderful beauty upon those who look upon you. This affects a number of targets you choose equal to your Charisma modifier and within 30 feet. At 7th level, the targets must save or be Stunned (for 1d4 rounds); on a successful save the targets are merely shaken for 1d4 rounds. At 14th level, this ability affects targets within 60ft and the targets must save or be Stunned for 1d4 rounds and Blinded; on a successful save the targets are instead shaken for 1d4 rounds. At 20th level, this functions as a Phantasmal Killer spell; those that pass their saves are shaken (2d4 rounds) and those that fail the first save but pass the second save are also Stunned (1d4 rounds) and blinded. You must be 7th Level before taking this revelation.

Trust Me (Su): Once per day, you can reattempt a previously failed Bluff or Diplomacy check, even if a second attempt would normally not be allowed. If that check would normally receive a penalty for being tried again, you do not take that penalty.

Wrenching Heartache (Su): Once per day, as a standard action, you can inflict a terrible attack on the psyche of a creature within close range. The target creature suffers 1d4 damage per oracle level. The damage is untyped, and can be halved by a successful Will save, DC 10 +1/2 oracle level + Cha mod. Mindless creatures (creatures without an int score) are immune to this attack, but creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are not. Although the title implies it, the creature need not have a cardiovascular system to be affected, or even true emotions - this ability affects any creature with an intelligence score. You can use this ability one additional time per day at 5th level and every five levels beyond that.

Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, your connection to divine love allows you to take 20 on any Charisma based skill check. You become immune to all spells of the Charm subschool, and receive a bonus on all saving throws equal to your charisma modifier. Finally, the oracle gains the Timeless Body ability.


Uh!! Thanks for intaking my changes... I preferred Inspiring Heat to Wrenching Heartache, though ^-^
For Handle Animal: I didn't think to bestiality!!! I thought about a caring, loving maiden always followed by animals like Snow White :p


Bardess wrote:

Uh!! Thanks for intaking my changes... I preferred Inspiring Heat to Wrenching Heartache, though ^-^

For Handle Animal: I didn't think to bestiality!!! I thought about a caring, loving maiden always followed by animals like Snow White :p

Inspiring Heat... **looks over thread again** I can't find that one. Was that from a different thread? Or am I just skimming too fast?

Anyway, I've been considering adding in a few archetype modifications - like how the Seer Archetype in Ultimate Magic alters Time or Nature (or any other Mystery, but those are the thematically appropriate ones). I had some ideas like:

Sacred Prostitute (thematic for Passion, Life, or Time Mystery)

Love's Champion (thematic for Battle, Fire, or Heavens Mystery)

The Rake (thematic for Passion, Lore, and maybe Dark Tapestry Mystery)

I've not really done any work on these yet, other than concepts, but perhaps (since I've signed up for Pathfinder Database and submitted Passion Mystery) this would be a good time to start working these ideas out as well, and post them as a follow-up.


TheDoctor wrote:
Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The Oracle retains a link to the target as if the Oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per Oracle level.
The Doctor wrote:
A barbarian (or character under the effects of Rage) under the effect of this inspiration receives 2 additional rounds of rage. A bard (or character that makes magical performances) receives 2 additional rounds of performance."
Bardess wrote:
A Wild Rager barbarian under the effect of this power can end immediately his confused state.

This is the way I use it:

Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The oracle retains a link to the target as if the oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per oracle level. A barbarian (or character under the effects of Rage) under the effect of this inspiration receives 2 additional rounds of rage- except for a Wild Rager, who receives a +4 bonus on saves to end his confused state. A bard (or character that makes magical performances) receives 2 additional rounds of performance.

You said you liked it, at the time. If you prefer not to use it, maybe we could put it in an archetype (Shelyn's "Lovely Muse"?, since it's too good to discard for me.^^


Bardess wrote:

Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The oracle retains a link to the target as if the oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per oracle level. A barbarian (or character under the effects of Rage) under the effect of this inspiration receives 2 additional rounds of rage- except for a Wild Rager, who receives a +4 bonus on saves to end his confused state. A bard (or character that makes magical performances) receives 2 additional rounds of performance.

You said you liked it, at the time. If you prefer not to use it, maybe we could put it in an archetype (Shelyn's "Lovely Muse"?, since it's too good to discard for me.^^

Ah. The early posts between the Doctor and me got a little thick - I must have missed it when reviewing that section. It has been the better part of two years since I first started this thread.

As for the additional rounds per day - shouldn't we also include additional rounds of Bane per day for the Inquisitor? What about other usable-by-the-round abilities?

The Muse might be a more neutral term for my Sacred Prostitute concept - an oracle that helps others connect with the Goddess (or God) she (or he) represents. But yes, same basic idea. Now that I remember it, Inspiring Heat might be good for the "you have to take this at first level" Revelation for that Archetype.


Good!^^ I don't know if Judgment's a good idea (judging is not an act of passion, rather an act of the mind)... but let's do that...

Passionate Muse
A Passionate Muse encourages acts of creativity and passion in the followers of her god- and sometimes, acts of destruction too.

Class Skills: A passionate muse adds Perception, Perform and Use Magic Device to her list of class skills. These replace the additional class skills from her mystery.

Bonus Spells: These bonus spells replace the oracle’s mystery bonus spells at these levels: gallant inspiration (4th), mass suggestion (14th).

Revelations: A passionate muse must take the following revelation at 1st level.

Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The oracle retains a link to the target as if the oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per oracle level. A barbarian (or character under the effects of Rage) under the effect of this inspiration receives 2 additional rounds of rage- except for a Wild Rager, who receives a +4 bonus on saves to end his confused state. A bard (or character that makes magical performances) receives 2 additional rounds of performance.

Recommended Mysteries: Life, Lore, Passion.


Bardess wrote:

Good!^^ I don't know if Judgment's a good idea (judging is not an act of passion, rather an act of the mind)... but let's do that...

Passionate Muse
A Passionate Muse encourages acts of creativity and passion in the followers of her god- and sometimes, acts of destruction too.

Class Skills: A passionate muse adds Perception, Perform and Use Magic Device to her list of class skills. These replace the additional class skills from her mystery.

Bonus Spells: These bonus spells replace the oracle’s mystery bonus spells at these levels: gallant inspiration (4th), mass suggestion (14th).

Revelations: A passionate muse must take the following revelation at 1st level.

Inspiring Heat (Su): Once per day you may bestow a +4 bonus to a target's will saves, craft skill, and perform skill. The oracle retains a link to the target as if the oracle had cast status on the target. The target of the inspiration receives these benefits for 1 min per oracle level. A barbarian (or character under the effects of Rage) under the effect of this inspiration receives 2 additional rounds of rage- except for a Wild Rager, who receives a +4 bonus on saves to end his confused state. A bard (or character that makes magical performances) receives 2 additional rounds of performance.

Recommended Mysteries: Life, Lore, Passion.

Everything there looks great except... I'm not loving "Passionate Muse." "Sacred Muse?" Just "Muse?" Remember, these archetype variants are meant for use with any Mystery, not just Passion. A Lore Oracle with Inspiring Heat might inspire the mind rather than passion.

Also, a clarification - does Inspiring Heat restore 2 rounds already used, increase the total "Rounds per day" for the entire day thereafter, or does it create "virtual rounds" that the Bard or Barbarian can use immediately, but are then gone shortly thereafter? Or does it only effectively work when the Bard or Barbarian is already out of rounds for day, and thus it allows them two more rounds?

Also, should the uses per day increase with level? Maybe 2/day at 7th level and 3/day at 14th level?

And finally, I wasn't suggesting Judgement - that's like a Paladin Smite, so granting bonus uses of that would be WAY too powerful. I meant Bane, which is calculated in rounds per day rather than uses (much as Rage or Bardic Performance are). It was the only other rounds per day (rather than uses per day) ability that I could think of off the top of my head, aside from some Cleric domain powers... which might also be nice things to grant additional rounds of. Perhaps we could specify any class feature that is calculated in rounds per day rather than uses per day (such as Bardic Performance and Barbarian Rage)?


Okay, then "Inspiring Muse" or just "Muse" will do.
As for the changes to Inspiring Heat, I think it could go well as it is... rage and performance are, after all, "inspired" by definition. Maybe we could change the ability's name.
I have a feeling that it "creates virtual rounds"- that is to say, it must be used DURING a rage or performance to extend it by 2 rounds. More uses per day at high levels is good for me.
Maybe we could ask The Doctor what did he mean at the time directly. ;P


Plus: should it be a touch ability? (I kind of feel this way).


Bardess wrote:
Plus: should it be a touch ability? (I kind of feel this way).

Touch range sounds right.

As do the virtual rounds that only exist while the ability is active.

Also - when I previously read the ability, I misread the ability for Rounds per level rather than Minutes per level. That makes the virtual rounds thing MUCH more viable. I was concerned that at first level the ability would run out before the Bard or Barbarian could use both rounds, but upon re-reading, I see that they have at least a minute to use it, which makes far more sense.

IE, the Oracle could use this at the beginning of a combat. The Bard or Barbarian then uses Inspire or Rage and uses the bonus rounds first, to avoid wasting them.

When I previously misread it, I was worried that the Bard or Barbarian wouldn't be able to use two rounds of performance/rage within the space of one round (at first level).

My only excuse is that it was late and I was tired when I read it. :p

Anyway...

Any ideas about a first level Revelation for Rake (maybe that one up above that acts like Charm Monster?) or Champion of Love archetypes?

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