Applying multiple metamagic feats spontaneously increases casting time multiple times?


Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In another thread Cold Napalm claimed that, according to RAW, a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer) who applied multiple metamagic feats to a single spell (such as an empowered maximized fireball) would add multiple full round actions to the casting time, one for each metamagic feat applied (or two full round actions for the above example).

Because it was off topic in the other thread, and my interest has been piqued, I am starting this thread in the hopes that the community (and perhaps a game designer if we're lucky) can help prove whether or not Mr. Napalm's interpretation is the correct one.

I personally disagree with his interpretation of RAW and think that a standard action spell being spontaneously cast with metamagic will always be a single full round action, regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied to it.

What say you?

Grand Lodge

Core Rulebook p113..."Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."

Since it specifically states that the level change is cumulative, but says nothing about increasing the casting time, I would say it remains a full-round cast-nothing more.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TwilightKnight wrote:

Core Rulebook p113..."Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."

Since it specifically states that the level change is cumulative, but says nothing about increasing the casting time, I would say it remains a full-round cast-nothing more.

You and I think alike it seems.


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Ravingdork wrote:


I personally disagree with his interpretation of RAW and think that a standard action spell being spontaneously cast with metamagic will always be a single full round action, regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied to it.

What say you?

It's a reading that's occurred many times since 3e first came out. It's not correct but still persists.

That said I think that the 'rule' for extending the casting time on spontaneous metamagic'd spells should be removed. When a wizard applies a metamagic feat to a prepared spell via a rod it doesn't increase the casting time so I really don't see why it should for a sorcerer.

When 3e first came out sorcerers and their spontaneous casting were viewed as overly strong and as such these things were to 'balance' them back down...

-James


james maissen wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:


I personally disagree with his interpretation of RAW and think that a standard action spell being spontaneously cast with metamagic will always be a single full round action, regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied to it.

What say you?

It's a reading that's occurred many times since 3e first came out. It's not correct but still persists.

That said I think that the 'rule' for extending the casting time on spontaneous metamagic'd spells should be removed. When a wizard applies a metamagic feat to a prepared spell via a rod it doesn't increase the casting time so I really don't see why it should for a sorcerer.

When 3e first came out sorcerers and their spontaneous casting were viewed as overly strong and as such these things were to 'balance' them back down...

-James

I houseruled the longer time out of my games a long time ago.

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:

When a wizard applies a metamagic feat to a prepared spell via a rod it doesn't increase the casting time so I really don't see why it should for a sorcerer.

-James

Especially since bards and clerics/druids spontaneously casting cure/summon spells aren't called out in the metamagic rod rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
james maissen wrote:

When a wizard applies a metamagic feat to a prepared spell via a rod it doesn't increase the casting time so I really don't see why it should for a sorcerer.

-James

Especially since bards and clerics/druids spontaneously casting cure/summon spells aren't called out in the metamagic rod rules.

But they are called out in the metamagic/spontaneous casting rules, which is enough to screw them over when it comes to rods.


I'm gonna thread necro this one.

We had this situation last night, specifically metamagic rod maxmize, feat empower on a sorcerer casting a fireball.

Is there anyone who does think that the casting time should stack? That was how I initially ruled it, but if the community consensus is otherwise then my player might have a good case.


PhineasGage wrote:
Is there anyone who does think that the casting time should stack?

Nope, only people that hate spontaneous casters.

Personally, I think the Full Round Action thing should be removed--we're already a level behind in spell progression--throw us a bone on the metamagic, please.


mplindustries wrote:
Personally, I think the Full Round Action thing should be removed--we're already a level behind in spell progression--throw us a bone on the metamagic, please.

Hear, hear.


Ravingdork wrote:
TwilightKnight wrote:

Core Rulebook p113..."Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell."

Since it specifically states that the level change is cumulative, but says nothing about increasing the casting time, I would say it remains a full-round cast-nothing more.

You and I think alike it seems.

+1. You're already paying your sin tax with a feat and a level slot increase, lets not try to put additional penalties on an already heavily taxed spell system.


The idea of the higher casting time is the fact that barring using rods, a spontaneous caster can slap a metamagic feat onto a spell whenever he feels like, as long as he can cast it and has the full-round to do so. Clerics and druids spontaneously casting their cures/inflicts/summons operate the same way. It's also supposed to represent the effort necessary to use metamagic feats on a spell on the fly. Prepared casters have all their spells ready in advance and are much less flexible in that regard without items.

Back to the cumulative casting time thing: No. Longer than a full-round action more or less means that it's worthless for combat.

If things like this bother you, see if your GM will allow the Rapid Metamagic feat from 3.5.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's still screwy that metamagic rods also increase the casting time for spontaneous casters, though...


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ravingdork wrote:

In another thread Cold Napalm claimed that, according to RAW, a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer) who applied multiple metamagic feats to a single spell (such as an empowered maximized fireball) would add multiple full round actions to the casting time, one for each metamagic feat applied (or two full round actions for the above example).

Because it was off topic in the other thread, and my interest has been piqued, I am starting this thread in the hopes that the community (and perhaps a game designer if we're lucky) can help prove whether or not Mr. Napalm's interpretation is the correct one.

I personally disagree with his interpretation of RAW and think that a standard action spell being spontaneously cast with metamagic will always be a single full round action, regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied to it.

What say you?

Was there ever an official response to this issue?

Every forum thread I have found and read reached the conclusion that any spell with an original casting time of a standard action has a max casting time of a full round action regardless of how many metamagic feats are applied to it, but did Paizo ever reveal the official verdict on the matter?


Multiple metamagic feats do not increase the casting time.

See here:
FAQ

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