I missed the general window to comment on the playtest. This was partly due to being busy with other things, and also partly due to deliberately holding back: I'm the author of a sort-of competing product, and didn't want to let that bias my comments and suggestions (or conversely, since mine's not yet published and technically can still be revised, risk the temptation of stealing ideas). So, it took me a while to sort everything out. Oh well! Here goes. :)
What does the magus do, in or out of a fight? How does he aid the party? There's a whole big thread dedicated to this topic, and nobody can completely agree. That's because, in a nutshell, he tries to do too many things at once. This is a problem whether or not he's actually good at them: if he's not good at anything, he's just not good; but if he's really good at one thing and kind of good at others, he might wind up putting other classes out of business, which is also undesirable.
Narrow it down. Focus on a core behavioral concept. First and foremost, what does this guy want to achieve? As I see it, the intended flavor is that he is a reasonably competent spellcaster who happens to enjoy the visceral experience of combat, and spends meaningful time practicing that too. Now, the problem is that this is still not specific enough for the core concept. Before optional features are considered, is the default magus more likely to be a skirmisher, who hits hard but tries to avoid return attacks? Or is he a bruiser, who wades in and takes as much as he dishes?
To me, the magus looks like he wants to be a skirmisher. This is one of the places where I may be displaying some bias, because my Iron Mage is the bruiser by default and I'd rather see a wide-open niche than Paizo killing my class with an official replacement. ;) But there are mechanical facts which clearly support this idea: he has a d8 hit die, starts with light armor and cannot use a shield. Quite simply, he's not set up to take hits. This should be embraced, and in compensation he should be able to end fights with an opportune strike, or at least cripple opponents so they can't properly return the attack -- and indeed, the intent of Spell Combat and Spellstrike appears to be exactly that.
Sticking with the d8 HD + 3/4 BAB is fine, as is the 6-level progression, but I'm going to take the position that this class wants to be spontaneous. Again, there may be bias shown here: the Iron Mage is wizard-styled, with similar flavor about deliberately studying and merging the two styles. However, consider a few things.
1: The Magus will pretty obviously have a few favorite combat spells, with a handful of conditional second picks; spontaneous generally works better for this, giving you more versatility at any given moment even though you have fewer total spells in your repertoire.
2: The 6-level progression is built for spontaneous casters in the first place; the alchemist is the only precedent here, but he's an odd duck in several ways already, not least of which is the fact that he isn't actually casting spells. As a side-effect, the magus gets more spells per day than a generalist wizard despite supposedly learning them the same way, which isn't mechanically a problem since they're lower-level, but causes some cognitive dissonance regarding the flavor.
3: Also flavor-related: if the magus is learning spells like a wizard, why does he have a unique and limited spell list? That question might not be so urgent, except for the fact that said spell list includes spells from every school with the odd exception of Necromancy. Illusions, enchantments, divinations, he's got 'em. Yet he has no option for specialization... even though, to cast as many spells per day, a wizard must specialize. Make him spontaneous, and all these questions go away (except, perhaps, "where's chill touch").
A quick aside, to counterpoint my above self-caution about bias, the same thinking was done for the Iron Mage. That's why he's a full-BAB four-level spellbook-using prepared caster who just uses the wizard spell list but is required to specialize. The magus is currently the opposite in every way except for preparation, and to me that feels logically inconsistent.
Now, it could be argued that the traditional elf flavor is an argument for an Intelligence-based magus; I'd like to present the opposite argument: that elves contribute to the continued relevance of the Eldritch Knight (not to mention Arcane Archer, which was once elf-only). And on the flip side, sorcerers are generally considered a poor choice for EK since they get their spells a level later... so a pre-built fighter/sorcerer fills more gaps than a pre-built fighter/mage.
This is the real meat of the class, and it needs work as intended, and it should be gained at 1st level. Here's my proposal, and the wording is exact:
"As a full-round action, a magus may both perform the full attack action and cast a magus spell with a casting time of no more than 1 standard action. These actions may occur in either order, and the magus can take a 5-foot step between them. A spell cast in this way does not provoke attacks of opportunity from opponents the magus threatens. Spells with material and/or somatic components still require a free hand to cast."
No penalties to attack, because he's already taking them in the form of having a 3/4 BAB. No required concentration check (but only partial immunity to AOOs) because, dude, this is his thing. 1H+freehand is still the obvious style, but not explicitly mandated, allowing more creative builds. The synergy with Spellstrike is now fairly obvious at 1st level: it's not a weapon enhancement, it's extra chances to hit with a flubbed touch spell.
These are less important things, so I'll spend less time on them.
Fighter Training can safely be moved to 1st level. It doesn't actually do anything until 2nd, so that's fine too. It doesn't actually do anything until 8th, but future material could conceivably change that. But 10th is one level too late to pick up Weapon Specialization at 9th! (A possibility would be to also allow the magus to qualify for feats as if his BAB = his level, though then this really should be at 1st.)
Make the Concentrate arcanum a base ability at 2nd level (maybe 1st, but it's less necessary now and 1st is getting crowded), usable 3+Cha(/Int) times per day. Any arcanum which currently burns a spell, instead burns a Concentrate use. I can't remember who I stole this idea from, and Search isn't helping, so sorry for giving no credit. :)
As a result, arcana are no longer tied to spell level; I'd suggest changing that to level / 2 in all cases. (Shield needs the buff; it doesn't seem overpowered for the rest. Dispel would probably be fine with no level cap at all.) I'd also recommend adding the ability to get extra uses out of the metamagic arcana by burning Concentrates. Keep the base 1/day; extra uses cost as many Concentrates as they'd normally cost spell levels.
In the same spirit as removing the explicit one-hand-free stipulation on Spell Combat, Arcane Weapon shouldn't be limited to melee only. If arcana are merged with bonus feats and switched to every other level as some have suggested, move Arcane Weapon down to 3rd. (Level/3 is the requirement for weapon enhancements, so it doesn't really break anything.)
Medium armor proficiency should be optional, picked up through an arcanum. This arcanum should negate all spell failure chance. Training with heavy armor and shields is never provided as a class feature -- but if the character picks them up with feats or a Fighter dip, they're usable.
The idea of an Arcane Armor to match Arcane Weapon is interesting and seems class-appropriate. Might actually be too good, but worth considering. It would fit in at a higher level, to fill the gaps left by removed or obsolete abilities (e.g. armor proficiencies, improved/greater spell combat).
Counterstrike seems entirely random. Maybe make it an arcanum, unless you're going to add some additional anti-mage flavor to the core.
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I missed the general window to comment on the play test also and have a few Ideas and comments I’d like to air here too.
The role of the magus looks to me to be a melee combatant first and foremost. He needs to be up close and personal but fails on many levels in regards to this role due to some key aspects... AC, two weapon style, low hit points and poor BAB.
I'll discuss these in a moment but given the versatility of the rest of the class i can see where some of these restrictions/limitations stem from.
On to the core class ability, spell combat. As pointed out by the OP this is the defining ability of the class but it is also his Achilles Heel.
I don’t agree with the dropping penalties solution presented by the OP as it promotes multiclass min-maxing. I dont think moving spell combat to 1st is a good idea either as this too can cause 1 level dip min-max. Instead I would like to see more encouragement to remain a magus by increasing this abilities progression.
Spell Combat
Firstly let’s give this ability something unique. "A failed concentration check does not cause you to lose the spell if you fail." This prevents a series of bad rolls (and as pointed out the chance at low level is 55% or higher) to deplete the magus's resources for minimum or no benefit.
Secondly we need to address that failure rate. As mentioned in another post I agree that the magus should receive combat casting as a bonus feat at 1st level. I originally though about improving this as the characters progresses also by adding an additional +1 to the characters concentration check every 5 levels. This would net a +8 bonus by level 20. This bonus applies to the combat casting feat so would apply to any and all spells a magus can cast (multi-classed also) as well as protect him from being interrupted by blows when not using his spell combat ability. However I found this would trivialise the DC too much on lower level spells.
The progression of spell combat also needs a slight tweak OR the magus needs an improvement in his base attack. I am in favour of improving the magus BAB to 1/1 (fighter) while enhancing the two weapon fighting style benefits of spell combat. This way a magus can remain a pure fighter for most of his career alongside the ranger, paladin, and fighter, etc.
The penalties associated with spell combat don’t match those of a two weapon fighter with the two weapon fighting chain especially if you consider the improved spell progression mentioned below. So I recommend the following re-writes of the spell combat abilities.
Spell Combat “You suffer the penalties for two weapon fighting to concentration checks when wielding a spell in your offhand with this ability. You treat Cantrips, 1st level and 2nd level spells of the evocation school as light weapons (-2/-2), higher level evocation spells are considered one handed weapons (-4/-4).”
Improved Spell Combat “Your spell combat improves, you now consider 3rd level spells as light weapons and may attempt to recast a failed spell as a second attack with an additional -5 penalty to the concentration check.”
Greater Spell Combat “You now consider 4th level or lower evocation spells as light weapons.”
Thirdly, Spell strike doesn’t blend well with spell combat. I can’t see someone using spell strike unless he has previously cast a touch spell and is holding the charge until he enters combat.
e.g. round one he casts shocking grasp holding the charge, round two he attacks with spell combat casting magic missile on a foe and channelling the shocking grasp through his weapon at the same time.
My suggestion is to add improved spell strike that allows the magus to cast touch spells as a swift action at a higher level (say 12th?). Allowing spell strike to be used on consecutive rounds although this does encroach on critical strike arcana (perhaps make improved spell strike a magus arcana ability with the critical strike arcana as a pre-requisite.)
Spells
The spells are too specific and don’t make much sense in respect of the role of a magus. I'm in the belief that if the magus is supposed to be a book mage then he should not be limited to only certain spells. This has large implications on campaigns where players can create their own spells through research. You are saying that the magus can read and create spells much like a wizard but he cannot create a vampiric touch spell like a wizard?!? its very hard to swallow and even harder to explain for a GM to his players would ask why not! To fix this I suggest granting the Magus access to evocation spells only and increasing his spell progression to 9th level spells! This results in his study of offensive spells in exclusion of all others (but see Broad study below) while increasing his spell power at higher levels. The progression should match that of a wizard but delayed 1 level like that of a sorcerer (i.e. new spell levels are gained at 4th ,6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th)
Moving onto the Magus arcana abilities: arcane accuracy is fine, as is Concentrate, Dispelling strike, Empowered Magic, Familiar, Hasted Assault, Maximised Magic, Quickened Magic, Reflection, Silent Magic, Spell Shield, and Still Magic. However based on my comments so far the others need some adjustment...
Broad Study is too ambiguous and potentially game breaking; how it reads right now you can select ANY casting class even if you do not possess levels in that class and use their spells without hindrance. That would allow a magus to combine cleric heals with druid buffs, and many other spells unique to certain classes such as an alchemists formulas. The combinations are far to broad and could create some very powerful combinations. My solution is to rework this ability so that it only grants access to a new school of magic from the wizard/sorcerer list but remains restricted - Cannot be used in conjunction with magus arcana abilities like empowered magic, cannot be cast in armor without a successful arcane spell failure check etc.
Critical Strike needs to be all the time, I don’t think it deserves the 1/day restriction implied as critical hits are rare enough as it is let alone being restricted to level 12.
Maneuver Mastery is now obsolete if you go with the improved BAB and instead I recommend changing this ability to “sacrifice a spell to add a bonus to a combat maneuver equal to the level of the spell sacrificed.”
Arcane Weapon – This ability is fine as is.
Light, Medium and Heavy Armor abilities – These just need to specify they only apply to evocation spells.
Fighter Training – This ability only applies to 2 feats (of note) for the magus, Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon focus, the rest of the fighter only feats require a fighter level over 10th. This seems rather pointless as an ability at 10th level and strikes me as a poor “stocking filler” to remove an empty level.
Counterstrike is a nice idea but could be expanded on – perhaps move this ability to 10th to replace fighter training and add improved counterstrike which becomes an immediate action that can interrupt the casting of a spell.
True Magus As a capstone ability this one is lacking. I don’t agree with taking away the concentration check entirely, instead I think it should be made into a chance to keep the spell energy... “At 20th level, the magus becomes a master of spells and combat. Whenever he uses his spell combat ability, he can make a concentration check to cast the spell more than once. This ability follows the normal spell combat ability rules. A successful spell combat ability indicates that the spell is cast successfully but the spell energy is not expended and the magus may cast the spell a second time on the same target as an extra off-hand attack (similar to improved two weapon fighting). This attack requires another concentration check with a -10 penalty. A magus cannot use the Concentrate Magus Arcana ability to re-roll a failed check on this second attack.”
The ability to reduce spell resistance, increase DC or increase attack is a nice touch and should remain as an ability of the class but perhaps this would be better as its own ability, say at 10th level instead of fighter training, or in place of a bonus feat.
Lastly I’d like to comment on the other aspects of the class.
The class is in my opinion a Dex/Int build with agility being more prevalent over strength. For this perhaps a +0 fortitude +2 reflex and +2 will would be more fitting.
With the increased BAB, increased spell progression and still maintaining the ability to use heavy armor by 13th (although most probably won’t give the prevalence for a dexterity build) I would recommend keeping the hit points at d8 instead of raising them to d10 like all other 1/1 BAB classes.
Some maths for spell combat purposes
Concentration Check: DC = 15 + double spell level
2nd level (+2) Int 18 (+4) combat casting (+4) spell combat penalty (-2) 1st level spell DC 17 = 10 or better required
4th level (+4) Int 19 (+4) combat casting (+4) spell combat penalty (-2) 2nd level spell DC 19 = 9 or better required
6th level (+6) Int 21 with +2 item (+5) combat casting (+4) spell combat penalty (-4) 3rd level spell DC 21 = 10 or better required
8th level (+8) Int 22 with +2 item (+6) combat casting (+4) improved spell combat penalty (-4) 4th level spell DC 23 = 9 or better required
10th level (+10) Int 22 with +2 item (+6) combat casting (+4) improved spell combat penalty (-4) 5th level spell DC 25 = 9 or better required
12th level (+12) Int 25 with +4 item (+7) combat casting (+4) improved spell combat penalty (-4) 6th level spell DC 27 = 8 or better required
14th level (+14) Int 25 with +4 item (+7) combat casting (+4) greater spell combat penalty (-4) 7th level spell DC 29 = 8 or better required
16th level (+16) Int 28 with +6 item (+9) combat casting (+4) greater spell combat penalty (-4) 8th level spell DC 31 = 6 or better required
18th level (+18) Int 28 with +6 item (+9) combat casting (+4) greater spell combat penalty (-4) 9th level spell DC 33 = 6 or better required
20th level (+20) Int 29 with +6 item (+9) combat casting (+4) greater spell combat penalty (-4) 9th level spell DC 33 = 4 or better required (second casting DC 43 = 14 or better required)
I don’t agree with the dropping penalties solution presented by the OP as it promotes multiclass min-maxing. I dont think moving spell combat to 1st is a good idea either as this too can cause 1 level dip min-max.
I should point out that my version explicitly works with Magus spells and nothing else; multiclass cheese is not an issue.
IMO, Spellstrike works great with Spell Combat. Cast the touch spell first, using Spell Combat. Missed? No problem! Deliver it a subsequent weapon attack. It's a second chance, in the same round.
You missed something re: Fighter Training -- Disruptive and Spell Breaker. (Which go great with Counterstrike, by the way, though I'm still not sure why that's base and not an arcanum.)
Musing over it some more, I think Arcane Weapon should be played up... and Fighter Training should go away completely. Give him the option to take Disruptive and Spellbreaker as arcana or bonus feats, explicitly replacing the fighter level requirement with the same magus level. (Now Counterstrike really makes sense, as part of that option chain.)
Meanwhile, give greater magic weapon-equivalent enhancement to the bonded weapon automatically. (Leave it on the spell list, but it's for backup weapons or buffing others.) Keep the current mechanic for adding extra properties to the weapon, but no additional enhancement bonus. Yes, if you look at the resulting weapon in a vacuum, it's slightly overpowered compared to what a fighter can normally acquire... but the magus is decidedly not as good at using it. He needs the buff.
Now the magus doesn't get access to the Specialization chain at all: his swordplay is passable, but not exemplary. However, he makes up for this with arcane prowess. Mechanically, he's picked up an extra 3rd-level spell which would otherwise have been dedicated to GMW (or saved a bit of cash), which is nice but not huge... however, if the player is not optimization-minded, there's one less trap to gimp him.
I think that may cover all the bases. There might still be call for an arcanum which buffs attack and/or damage, I haven't run extensive numbers to be certain; but at the very least, I see good solutions for most tactical necessities.
Of course, the more reserved magus can be a reverse-skirmisher: just stand back and toss spells. Buff the party, cripple the enemy, all out of reach. If the enemy does come to him, he gets the first full-round and they'll likely regret the decision. Mind you, this is already the case. It was the aggressive player (who is more likely to choose this class over a pure mage!) that I thought might be getting shafted before. So...
A forthright magus can deliver a solid initial salvo: load a touch spell into his supercharged arcane weapon long before combat, deliver it with a charge (and at higher levels, drop a quickened spell on top of it). Enough to make most enemies pause to think about what he can do with a full-round, and perhaps decide to pull back rather than risk him surviving their attacks: scaring them off is just as good as armor. With the change to arcana described above, he's got two to four quickens depending on how he prioritizes Intelligence and whether he uses other arcana, so this tactic can be used a few times each day. Better still, it works with Spring Attack.
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Yeah, i also feel strange making too many comments about the class, but I want to see it become the best that it can be so ...
I like the idea of playing up the arcane weapon ... sounds like another similar class in fact ... ;)
I also don't think the limited spell list fits. The class doesn't get all that many spells - why artificially limit which spells he can learn?
I like the idea of playing up the arcane weapon ... sounds like another similar class in fact ... ;)
Hehe... the mechanics are different enough, I think. ;)
I also don't think the limited spell list fits. The class doesn't get all that many spells - why artificially limit which spells he can learn?
The thing that a class-unique list is really good for, is allowing early access to certain spells, or access to spells that normally belong to other classes. I don't see nearly enough of this in the magus list, but since it was just a rough draft, I have faith there will be some exploitation of these possibilities.
But again, this makes more sense flavor-wise for a spontaneous caster than a prepared one (arcane, anyway). He can do things partly on instinct that can't be easily (or at all) reduced to formulae; if he studies spellbooks, the question will always loom: why can't he study all the same spells?
So basically, I see two options -- prepared with the Wizard list, or spontaneous with a class-specific list. I favor the latter based on reasons outlined above, but if Jason decides to stick with preparation, he should definitely go all the way with it.
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I should point out that my version explicitly works with Magus spells and nothing else; multiclass cheese is not an issue.
I agree as a multi-class its not much of an issue (until you look at broad study) but I was more concerned about the 1 level dip into magus like people often do with 1 level of rogue to get 1d6 sneak attack.
You missed something re: Fighter Training -- Disruptive and Spell Breaker. (Which go great with Counterstrike, by the way, though I'm still not sure why that's base and not an arcanum.)
Thanks for pointing those out - I only skimmed the list TBH and didnt think to check the advanced players guide either :).
I agree Fighter Training should be dumped completely and the magus arcana expanded on (perhaps increasing the amount the magus gets as he levels). The arcane weapon should be the magus signature weapon and it should be noted that this will almost exclusively be a one handed or light weapon, the damage will therefore be limited while a pure fighter can increase his damage with two handed weapon choices. The pure damage of a magus should come from his spells and granting him the ability to cast high level evocation spells solidifies his role as a combatant without impeeding on the role of a true wizard.
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I really don't get the hate for multiclassing many people have.
James
It’s not really a hate issue - more of a balance one. In 3.5 the first level rogue became almost the norm for many characters regardless of overall theme. It was just too good to turn down an extra 1d6 damage and 8 skill points (x4) by putting key abilities of classes at level 2 you negate the 1 dip min-max rule while maintaining viability as a multiclass.
One of my old gamers loved the Alternate advancement system from Unearthed Arcana and to some extent I liked it too - however the rules are put in as a whole for DMs to use and adjust to their campaigns. This is not the case for many DMs who simply say I'll allow the use of books X Y and Z at which point min-maxers rejoice and begin building characters that surpass anything the PHB has to offer. Just look at the 3.5 character optimization threads on the wizards forums (if they still exist) and you'll understand what I mean.
Paizo so far has released a core rulebook, an advanced players guide, and a game mastery guide. The rules presented in the advanced players guide has some new rules for the GM only but also presents new options for the players. So far these have been rigorously tested by the players in open playtests (the best source for ironing out broken rules IMHO) unlike many wizards’ products.
I can say with hand on my heart that I could hand any player my Pathfinder books and say make me a character without having to scrutinize the rules beforehand for possible loopholes. The same cannot be said for 3.5 (especially after having to deal with a 32 strength half-dragon half-ogre barbarian with over 100 hit points at level 6!)
I would like to continue this with future pathfinder books, and if that ever becomes a problem I will simply stop buying them to maintain game balance. If I can help that with the open playtest then that’s what I'll do.
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For the record the barbarian wasnt a game I was running but a game I was playing in. From what I recall the LA was applied correctly (it was questioned at least twice a session) he just used flaws and LA reduction. he was effectively only a level 2 barbarian compared to my 6th level halfing rogue but he outclassed the entire party in combat. The end result was a TPK as the GM tried to find challenges for this monster that squished the rest of the party in less than a few rounds!... It was not a fun experience for the group overall (except the barbarian) but after the 3rd session ending with a TPK the GM abandoned the campaign.
However, Despite the fact that the rules may not have been applied correctly, or that the dip doesnt suit every single class make up is besides the point.
The point I was trying to make is that Pazio have given us the opportunity to find such flaws and iron them out BEFORE the documents go to print.
For me personally, Bad/mis-interperted rules, min-maxing and general disagreements over optional rules has been the main cause of games collapsing in both games I've run and games I've played in. In fact my first pathfinder game is the only game I have successfully run to its conclusion.
45HP at level 2 while raging is pretty much the absolute maximum currently.
I assume that includes a potion of bull's strength? I'm not seeing more than 41 using core races and at-level abilities. Mind you, I'm not encyclopedic with the APG yet... really need to get that in hard-copy. 100 at 6th is perfectly reasonable, though. Also, this is veering off-topic. :)
Honestly if someone wants to 'dip' into a character class for goodies, let them.. most of the time they will have bought themselves a bill of goods. The other times its almost always decently planned out, which imho makes it valid.
This is pretty much where I'm coming from. If spell combat could be used with another class's spells, it would be a better class than fighter for a wizard going toward Eldritch Knight, and I wanted to avoid that; any other situation with a full caster is just one lost level of your primary progression, definitely not worth the trade-off if you're trying to optimize.
Meanwhile, what does a melee class get out of it? Chances are your Int isn't 20, but 12 is reasonable so we'll assume you get two 1st-level spells plus cantrips. All day long, you can add one cantrip to your full attack... DC 11 saves aren't particularly reliable at any level, and ranged touch attacks still provoke even though the spell doesn't, so there's really nothing good here. Possibly a 1d3 0-level touch spell will be introduced, but 1d3 damage doesn't even make up for the lost base attack.
Twice a day you can add a 1st-level spell... this could be magic missile, for a free 1d4+1. Twice a day. Woo? There's a trait which gives +2 CL, which would allow a whopping 3d6 from shocking grasp and that's about the only thing I can think of that's actually worth the level dip on offense... assuming you can find a way to cast it while wielding a two-hander. Defensively, shield is an admittedly interesting option, though see above re: somatic component. You could color spray, but frankly if you're going to do that just dip universalist wizard instead and get the ability to throw your weapon, plus either an extra set of actions each round (familiar) or an extra 1st-level spell (bonded item).
Bottom line, I'd rather dip barbarian... and that's with my penalty-free upgrade of spell combat, never mind the original. Move it to 1st level.
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Your forgetting the Half-Orge Racial HD - The character was a lvl 2 barbarian in a lvl 6 game - I believe he would have been level 3 when the rest of us hit level 9 due to LA costs but we just couldnt keep the game going that long. One aspect of the character I wasnt sure of involved rules taken from Races of the Dragon book because I don't own that book.
And yes he broke 100 hps while raging. I would post the character but I don't see the guy anymore (he joined our group while in town at uni but has finished uni now).
I blame the DM for allowing such a class/race combo as it destroyed all roleplaying in the campaign (which was an evil campaign BTW).