What's with the damn Spontaneous casting?


Round 1: Magus


What the frell is wrong with you people??

At least half the forum seems to be getting themselves a damn hard-on when they start ranting about the Magus being a spontaneous caster. When the APG hit the real world (europe) and I got my hands on it, I was rather pleased to find that the Alchemist and Witch was indeed NOT spontaneous casters, but had something like a spellbook to choose from each day. Then again, it was something like a kick in the nads to find that the Summoner was spontaneous, since it seems rather wierd that the guy who specializes in summonings does all his workings based purely on memory, and playing it by ear.

And now people wank about the Magus needing to be a spontaneous caster. What's with that? You talk about a class that is a mix if WIZARD and Fighter, and not only do you want it to be a miserable Fighter because you're frelling scared of balance issues, you also want to severely limit it's access to spell options, and turn it into a bad Sorcerer.

I think that we have seen enough threads whine about balance issues, and how the Magus should be a wet rag to be balanced against the other classes. But face it people; Druid, Wizard, Cleric and Witch are awesome compared to the relative uselessness of the Magus. Wizard has all their cool touch spells that offset their lack of BAB, Cleric has access to a million buffs that makes them awesome melee combatants rather early in the game (and with the "new" channel energy they are truely buff-bots) and the Druid can do just about everything. And the best part? They are ALL memorizers. They can adapt to every situation with a days preperation, and they can truely shine in every situation.

Now a Sorcerer is another matter. He's usually a boring master blaster, who has no impact when the campaign changes from the dungeon crawl, to a city. His utility is somewhat invisible compared to that of the wizard, and compared to the cleric he's not even very interesting where battlefield control is concerned.

Is this really what you want for your Magus? I know most of his spells are battle oriented, but I plan to correct that if I am ever to GM for one so that's not an issue. But really; limit him even further, to what? Make him the laughing stock of the arcane classes? Beat him over the head with the N00b stick? Get a grip people. This is not about your wanking, this is about the feel of a class and we already have enough damn spontaneous casters in the Bard, Sorcerer, Inquisitor, Oracle And Summoner. If you want spontaneous casting, pick one of them instead of trying to close the zipper on the Magus' gimp suit.

And before you start hammering your poor keyboard: It's fine that the Inquisitor is a spontaneous caster, he's already a one-man band, so he didn't need the extra spells. The Oracle is somewhat limited, but I suppose that every system must have a spontaneous divine caster and his mysteries make up for it if you pick the right ones. The Summoner is just ... wierd, and I shall correct for that, but that's another matter entirely.

Now stop being so damn impressed with the stupid spontaneous wag, it's not interesting, it's not awesome, and it's no damn good for the already lame Magus!

Grand Lodge

Frell? Somebody watch Ella Enchanted lately? I love that movie, but my friends won't watch it because they say the begining is just too depressing...go figure.

But yeah I too am glad that the magus is a prepared caster.


Cold Napalm wrote:

Frell? Somebody watch Ella Enchanted lately? I love that movie, but my friends won't watch it because they say the begining is just too depressing...go figure.

But yeah I too am glad that the magus is a prepared caster.

Too much Farscape actually ;)

Glad I'm not the only one who likes the idea of spellbooks. Besides, they look better than having an overly large head... :)

Grand Lodge

Rocket Surgeon wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

Frell? Somebody watch Ella Enchanted lately? I love that movie, but my friends won't watch it because they say the begining is just too depressing...go figure.

But yeah I too am glad that the magus is a prepared caster.

Too much Farscape actually ;)

Ah farscape...forgot they used that word in that series too. Quite...insane that series.


Insane but fun, and put me down for liking and glad its a prepared caster.

Sovereign Court

All ages hobby, all ages website.

I wish you could be impassioned without being rude, most people can do it.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

GeraintElberion wrote:

All ages hobby, all ages website.

I wish you could be impassioned without being rude, most people can do it.

+1

... So other people have a different oppinion, that's no need to lose the plot.

Anyway, in reply to your rant i have no problem with the magus being a prepared caster mechanically, but i do dislike the flavour of it. The best of both worlds for me would be for the class to have a more spontaneous "feel" whilst retaining prepared mechanics.

- One way of doing this (which i mentioned in another post) would be for the Magus to develop their powers similar to the Sorcerer, but would have to "cast" the spells into their weapon of choice at the start of the day. Another nice flavour touch would be for the magus to inscribe spells onto their weapon instead of using a spellbook. - just my 2 cents.

Liberty's Edge

I think the OP could have made a more polite and substantive post as well, but I agree with his broad point. I'm quite happy with the magus as a prepared caster. I have my problems with Vancian casting in general, but from a design point of view, we really needed the next arcane class to be a spellbook-and-preparation caster. There are just too few classes that use the spellbook mechanic for it to carry much mechanical (or narrative) weight. I like the view of the magus as a learned arcanist and a trained warrior--everything he does is the result of deliberate study and discipline.

Now, I just wish the class had the mechanical consistency to back up that concept, and we'd be all good. ;)

Jeremy Puckett


hida_jiremi wrote:

I think the OP could have made a more polite and substantive post as well, but I agree with his broad point. I'm quite happy with the magus as a prepared caster. I have my problems with Vancian casting in general, but from a design point of view, we really needed the next arcane class to be a spellbook-and-preparation caster. There are just too few classes that use the spellbook mechanic for it to carry much mechanical (or narrative) weight. I like the view of the magus as a learned arcanist and a trained warrior--everything he does is the result of deliberate study and discipline.

Now, I just wish the class had the mechanical consistency to back up that concept, and we'd be all good. ;)

Jeremy Puckett

+1 to this (adding to the bolded part that playtest has this purpose)


Some people just prefer spontanious. We don't all love Vancian, after all, and for those of us who aren't so keen on it, whatever gets us away from that is a good thing.


A few answers to your rant good sir.

1) The class has a very limited spell list and isn't meant to prepare for massively varied situations, it is a focused class, so your point regarding the variedness of a prepared caster falls somewhat short.

2) Being a spontaneous caster gives him the ability to make more varied use of the spells he does know, since he is not limited to selecting spell slots, only spells known. Therefore, for all those days he doesn't actually decide to fight something, those 5 uses of shocking grasp he prepared as his only touch spell aren't wasted.

3) A spontaneous caster fits the flavor of this class more than the prepared caster does, because a Magus isn't just a stand back and thinker, he is a do-er, and needs spontaneity and improvisation in order to mix his martial and spellcasting.

4) You complain about some people being very high on spontaneous casters, and back up your ideas mostly with "prepared is better." in as complex a game system as Pathfinder, that is very debatable, especially if you take into account the variety of personalities who play the game. One of my players prefers the wizard, I the sorcerer, and we BOTH can create varied and interesting builds with them. With my more spells per day and a little ingenuity, my sorcerer is just as prepared as his wizard for any situation. Also, there are people who don't want to deal with the complexity of a spellbook, and therefore prefer the simplicity of spells known.

5) Making him prepared would not limit him, in fact, it would expand his spell slots, and therefore increase his versatility and longevity as written. With the Magus Arcana often requiring spell slots to power, as a prepared caster you have to choose a specific spell to give up. On the other hand, as a spontaneous caster you would not need to choose a specific spell, rather you would just lose a spell slot. There is a huge difference there.

So, I hope you can come off your spontaneous hating monologue long enough to really think through the issues here and figure out logically what is the better fit. I for one believe it is spontaneous. You may disagree, but a reasoned argument is better than a rant.


Beorn the Bear wrote:
A few answers to your rant good sir.

Haha! I've never been "Good sir"'ed before, nifty.

That aside, I don't hate spontaneous casting, everything has it's place in this game. My problem is that a lot of people seem to think that every casting class from now until forever should be like that. What I'm saying is: Get over it, it's not the best thing since fire ...

And about me being impolite ... well. It was far worse before I read it through, some of you people are way to prissy ;)

Shadow Lodge

If anything, this board seems to hate spontaneous casters, and think they are utterly worthless. And frankly, as a fan of spontaneous casters, I'm tired of hearing about it, because it's blatantly not true. Prepared spellcasters have less spells per day, and they have to pick them out ahead of time, giving them the amazing ability to be utterly frelling useless in any given situation, since they might have picked the wrong spells. Divination can help, but only until the party jumps off the tracks of the DM's railroad.

A wizard is god...until he doesn't have the right spell prepared, at which point he becomes a frailer commoner.

I don't really mind the magus being a prepared caster, it fits the concept. But I do think the witch definitely should have been spontaneous (as well as either Wisdom or Charisma powered).

Liberty's Edge

GeraintElberion wrote:

All ages hobby, all ages website.

I wish you could be impassioned without being rude, most people can do it.

You've been here too long to say that. C'mon now ;)


Hi Welcome


Beorn the Bear wrote:

A few answers to your rant good sir.

1) The class has a very limited spell list and isn't meant to prepare for massively varied situations, it is a focused class, so your point regarding the variedness of a prepared caster falls somewhat short.

You must have missed the official posts about this in other threads, but when Ultimate Magic is released there will be bunches of new spells in it, including a bunch of new touch attack spells for the Magus. So that limited spell list in the playtest will be expanded a lot in the final release.

Quote:
2) Being a spontaneous caster gives him the ability to make more varied use of the spells he does know, since he is not limited to selecting spell slots, only spells known. Therefore, for all those days he doesn't actually decide to fight something, those 5 uses of shocking grasp he prepared as his only touch spell aren't wasted.

You also need to remember that what the Magus has memorized many times will not be as important as which abilities he is powering by sacrificing those spell slots rather than casting them.

And on a side note to all the spontaneous versus prepared arguments, most of my past gaming groups have simply run all casters as spontaneous as far back as 1st Ed AD&D, as we felt that having to choose in advance every single day what spells you could or could not cast was ludicrous.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


You must have missed the official posts about this in other threads, but when Ultimate Magic is released there will be bunches of new spells in it, including a bunch of new touch attack spells for the Magus. So that limited spell list in the playtest will be expanded a lot in the final release.

Counter-point: Wave Oracle.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


You must have missed the official posts about this in other threads, but when Ultimate Magic is released there will be bunches of new spells in it, including a bunch of new touch attack spells for the Magus. So that limited spell list in the playtest will be expanded a lot in the final release.
Counter-point: Wave Oracle.

I don't quite understand your counterpoint. I'm playing one now in a PBP on here and I'm having a blast.... or a splash if you will.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

As I understand (just quoting from other posts on the forum), there is a mystery that adds to a specific type of spell, but only one printed spell of that type (Water tag or something). When it was pointed out, more spells were promised, but none were printed in the APG. Hopefully this problem will be fixed in UM.


+1 for prepared caster. Sponts are everywhere these days. They don't have to pour over books, research stuff, fear loosing their books, etc. Prepared caster is more versatile but takes tactics and planning. Spont does his stuff through practice and intuition. I could see the magus being either, but since there is already at least three spont "3/4 bab, 6 spell level" casters, I am glad the magus is prepared.

Liberty's Edge

There's already a spontaneous magus. He's called a summoner.


Kthulhu wrote:

If anything, this board seems to hate spontaneous casters, and think they are utterly worthless. And frankly, as a fan of spontaneous casters, I'm tired of hearing about it, because it's blatantly not true. Prepared spellcasters have less spells per day, and they have to pick them out ahead of time, giving them the amazing ability to be utterly frelling useless in any given situation, since they might have picked the wrong spells. Divination can help, but only until the party jumps off the tracks of the DM's railroad.

A wizard is god...until he doesn't have the right spell prepared, at which point he becomes a frailer commoner.

I don't really mind the magus being a prepared caster, it fits the concept. But I do think the witch definitely should have been spontaneous (as well as either Wisdom or Charisma powered).

+1

Couldn't agree with you more. Before the Sorceror came around in 3rd edition, I enjoyed playing the Wizard, but never liked having to pick spells in advance. Don't know how many times I would run into a situation where I wished I had 'x' spell, instead of the one I had memorized.

And when I played my first Sorceror, I knew I would never go back. Maybe part of it is being lazy, but I just much prefer the flexibility of being able to cast any of my known spells whenever I want to. I agree, your known spells are significantly less than what a Wizard would have, but I have never run into an issue yet where I wished I had 'x' spell at the time of casting during combat. If I did, I knew I would have the spell soon enough either through another level, or through a feat. And if I needed a non-combat spell, that is what scrolls are for.

I was happy with the Extra Spell feat in 3.5. But the Expanded Arcana even makes the Sorceror more viable, nevermind the bonus spells he receives from his Bloodline.

No, IMO, I feel spontanous casters are much better. And I have a lot more fun playing them.


Spontaneous casters tend have more spell slots they can cast in day in exchange for limited selection of spells. That's something the magus could really use.

Other than that I see no reason to make the Magus Spontaneous. As much as I hate prepared casters I can handle that for the Magus. If I want spontaneous I'll play and Arcane Duelist Bard.


Lyrax wrote:
There's already a spontaneous magus. He's called a summoner.

Or the Arcane Duelist. That version of bard even gets the equivalent of Arcane Weapon with Bladethirst performance and get the casting in armor ability.

Liberty's Edge

voska66 wrote:
Or the Arcane Duelist. That version of bard even gets the equivalent of Arcane Weapon with Bladethirst performance and get the casting in armor ability.

*nods* That, too. I was thinking about mentioning the bard, but of the two (bard and summoner) the summoner's description leans much closer to "beat stuff up and cast spells too". Bards can do that, but bards can do anything.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Considering all the things a magus can do with spell slots other than cast spells, spontaneous really makes more sense. What's the point of memorizing various spells, only to turn them into insight bonuses to attack and such?

Liberty's Edge

RJGrady wrote:
Considering all the things a magus can do with spell slots other than cast spells, spontaneous really makes more sense. What's the point of memorizing various spells, only to turn them into insight bonuses to attack and such?

Maybe you memorized the wrong spell for this encounter?

Dark Archive

RJGrady wrote:
Considering all the things a magus can do with spell slots other than cast spells, spontaneous really makes more sense. What's the point of memorizing various spells, only to turn them into insight bonuses to attack and such?

actually thats why i think they shouldnt be spontaneous. if they prep the wrong spells they can burn them on the fly for other buffs.


Name Violation wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Considering all the things a magus can do with spell slots other than cast spells, spontaneous really makes more sense. What's the point of memorizing various spells, only to turn them into insight bonuses to attack and such?
actually thats why i think they shouldnt be spontaneous. if they prep the wrong spells they can burn them on the fly for other buffs.

But if you cast spontaneously, you can't prepare the wrong spells.... hmmmm.......

Oh, and you also still have those spells available after the encounter when you need to do something else in the next encounter because you still have slots left and that spell you burned would be useful this time. It's all a balancing act, but for the magus who currently needs to burn spell slots, Spontaneous makes more sense from a mechanics viewpoint.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
As I understand (just quoting from other posts on the forum), there is a mystery that adds to a specific type of spell, but only one printed spell of that type (Water tag or something). When it was pointed out, more spells were promised, but none were printed in the APG. Hopefully this problem will be fixed in UM.

Yes... the spell type was Cold. Kind of a lack of cold spells on the Cleric list, but I think there's at least one metamagic feat that can fix that. Elemental Spell... it does so at a cost but at least it's something.

On the other hand there are other mysteries for a Wave Oracle to choose.

The Exchange

voska66 wrote:
Lyrax wrote:
There's already a spontaneous magus. He's called a summoner.
Or the Arcane Duelist. That version of bard even gets the equivalent of Arcane Weapon with Bladethirst performance and get the casting in armor ability.

Multiple versions of the Bard can mix it up in melee for that matter. There are options for spontaneous caster/melee characters. Prepared caster/melee characters can... what? How's that? Multiclass? Ooohhhhh, that's fun. Seriously folks, get over it. The Magus is a book studying class, and it's a good thing.


LazarX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
As I understand (just quoting from other posts on the forum), there is a mystery that adds to a specific type of spell, but only one printed spell of that type (Water tag or something). When it was pointed out, more spells were promised, but none were printed in the APG. Hopefully this problem will be fixed in UM.

Yes... the spell type was Cold. Kind of a lack of cold spells on the Cleric list, but I think there's at least one metamagic feat that can fix that. Elemental Spell... it does so at a cost but at least it's something.

On the other hand there are other mysteries for a Wave Oracle to choose.

Yes and no... the final mystery is completely tied to the cold (maybe water too?) discriptor for the wave oracle -- and he didn't even really get any spells to drop stuff on from his bonus spells either.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

[

Yes and no... the final mystery is completely tied to the cold (maybe water too?) discriptor for the wave oracle -- and he didn't even really get any spells to drop stuff on from his bonus spells either.

I agree that it's an issue, but given the microscopic likelihood of ever playing a 20th level oracle, it's not a big deal for me.


It's quite simple...why not make it both a Prepared AND a Spontaneous caster?

Did everyone forget about the Spirit Shaman from 3.5e Complete Divine?!

It had access to the Druid spell list. But, each day, it had to choose which spells it would "prepare" from the list. Thereafter, it can spontaneously cast those spells until they decide to change the spells around the next day.

So why not make the Magus do the same thing? Use a special Magus spellbook, prepare their spells, and the spells they prepare can be cast spontaneously, until they change their options the next time they prepare spells?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Razz wrote:

It's quite simple...why not make it both a Prepared AND a Spontaneous caster?

Did everyone forget about the Spirit Shaman from 3.5e Complete Divine?!

It had access to the Druid spell list. But, each day, it had to choose which spells it would "prepare" from the list. Thereafter, it can spontaneously cast those spells until they decide to change the spells around the next day.

So why not make the Magus do the same thing? Use a special Magus spellbook, prepare their spells, and the spells they prepare can be cast spontaneously, until they change their options the next time they prepare spells?

Spontaneous casting means you dont prepare from a book at all.

Sorcerers have spells known, and can cast any of them at any time.
A wizard has spells known, but must pick a set few to cast for the day.
I dunno how you'd do both?
Or did you mean get rid of spells know, open up the whole list and just have them prepare from that?

<---confused.

Shadow Lodge

I believe I understand. Let's say that a magus has 4 slots open for 3rd level spells. In his spellbook, he has the spells Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic, Tongues, and Fly. When he prepares his spells for the day, he prepares Fireball, Dispel Magic, Tongues, and Fly. When he casts spells, he's not limited to casting one each of those spells. He could cast them each once, or cast Fireball 4 times, or cast Fly twice and Tongues twice, etc. He could NOT cast Lighting Bolt, because he didn't prepare it.

It's a blending of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. Like a prepared spellcaster, he has a spellbook and must pick the spells he prepares for the day. But these spells basically become the equivalent of the sorcerer's spells known. He can cast them in whatever combination he desires.

It's a very good happy medium between spontaneous and prepared spellcasting, in my opinion.

Dark Archive

Razz wrote:

It's quite simple...why not make it both a Prepared AND a Spontaneous caster?

Did everyone forget about the Spirit Shaman from 3.5e Complete Divine?!

It had access to the Druid spell list. But, each day, it had to choose which spells it would "prepare" from the list. Thereafter, it can spontaneously cast those spells until they decide to change the spells around the next day.

So why not make the Magus do the same thing? Use a special Magus spellbook, prepare their spells, and the spells they prepare can be cast spontaneously, until they change their options the next time they prepare spells?

so effectively spontaneous casting with the option to change spells known every day?

i say give them more abilities akin to the Inquisitors judgments with the ability to spend spell slots to activate. they could use spells or use spell energy to power their martial skills (yes i know they can kinda do this already)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

I believe I understand. Let's say that a magus has 4 slots open for 3rd level spells. In his spellbook, he has the spells Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic, Tongues, and Fly. When he prepares his spells for the day, he prepares Fireball, Dispel Magic, Tongues, and Fly. When he casts spells, he's not limited to casting one each of those spells. He could cast them each once, or cast Fireball 4 times, or cast Fly twice and Tongues twice, etc. He could NOT cast Lighting Bolt, because he didn't prepare it.

It's a blending of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. Like a prepared spellcaster, he has a spellbook and must pick the spells he prepares for the day. But these spells basically become the equivalent of the sorcerer's spells known. He can cast them in whatever combination he desires.

It's a very good happy medium between spontaneous and prepared spellcasting, in my opinion.

OK that makes more sense :)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Kthulhu wrote:
It's a very good happy medium between spontaneous and prepared spellcasting, in my opinion.

It's also more powerful than both preapred and spontaneous, because it combines the advantages of both.

If the magus is to be both prepared and spontaneous, the most I would want him to get is something like:

"Spontaneous Spells: Whenever a magus prepares spells, he may choose one prepared magus spell of each spell level. Until he next prepares spells, the magus may cast any one of those chosen spells by losing another prepared magus spell of the same or higher spell level."

Anything more than that, and his spellcasting options are starting to get too good.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

I believe I understand. Let's say that a magus has 4 slots open for 3rd level spells. In his spellbook, he has the spells Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic, Tongues, and Fly. When he prepares his spells for the day, he prepares Fireball, Dispel Magic, Tongues, and Fly. When he casts spells, he's not limited to casting one each of those spells. He could cast them each once, or cast Fireball 4 times, or cast Fly twice and Tongues twice, etc. He could NOT cast Lighting Bolt, because he didn't prepare it.

It's a blending of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. Like a prepared spellcaster, he has a spellbook and must pick the spells he prepares for the day. But these spells basically become the equivalent of the sorcerer's spells known. He can cast them in whatever combination he desires.

It's a very good happy medium between spontaneous and prepared spellcasting, in my opinion.

In other words the system used for all spellcasters in Arcana Evolved?

Silver Crusade

How about an arcana that allows the magus to substitute a prepared spell for a selected "focussed spell". Something similar to how a cleric substitutes prepared spells for an inflict/cure. This allows the magus to have a pretty decent selection of multi purpose buff/support spells (assuming he has them) but can swap them out for a touch or combat spell he has as a focussed spell.

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