I had prepared a 17th level Magus (human, now augmented with the graveknight template from Pathfinder AP #26) to fight against my 17th level group tonight.
Initiative is what decides the winner at this stage.
The Players had higher initiatives. The 17th level ranger has undead as one of his favored enemies and a holy longbow, plus he augmented himself with the spell gravity bow from the APG. He was doing good damage against the graveknight magus. I did give the magus an ally, a crag linnorm, and augmented by the wyrmskull template (from Pathfinder AP #22 I think). The ftr5/rog4/duelist 8 went after "her". The druid was next and cast reverse gravity against the graveknight magus, no save and no SR, more of a nuisance than anything else. (And by that I mean, he only fell "up" 20 feet and fell prone on the ceiling). The "wyrmskull" used its supernatural ability Speiro and created 6 advanced skeletal champions (of course they didn't arise until next round). Now, the magus stood up from prone twenty feet in the air on the ceiling (move action), cast a quickened mirror image and then contagious flame (from the APG)... but only hit the ranger and the wizard, who were close enough together to target with the spell. I rolled okay damage, not great, but the ranger didn't have any fire protection/resistance. (In round two, the magus cast a quickened interposing hand to provide cover for himself against the ranger and a displacement, also mainly to help against the ranger's attacks). The group's wizard cast greater dispel magic and wiped out all of my protections. (Now, here is one thing I had forgotten, I chose the reflection magus arcana, and had one 6th level spell slot to "burn" through... but I'm not even sure it would have worked against greater dispel magic. If it would have, the encounter might have gone in my favor afterward). I never got to melee with the magus, I'm not sure how that would have gone. I think it would have been worse if the ftr/rog/duelist had decided to attack the magus, instead of the wyrmskull... although at least I would have been able to melee for a round, maybe.
All in all, I like the idea of the Magus class, and I think it's not bad as it is, but a high level magus against an appropriate leveled group of PCs... initiative WILL decide the combat.
*And I'm willing to admit a better understanding of the Magus class might have helped me, perhaps some additional preparation, and different tactics... but I was pretty pleased with what I had worked out. Contagious Flame is a neat spell.
I don't know how much help this will be, if any, and it could be that my tactics needed more work, and if that reflection magus arcana would have worked against the greater dispel magic... I only have myself to blame for not recalling that ability.
Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm
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It works on Greater Dispel magic if the Dispel was targeting the Magus and wasn't cast as an Area Dispel. Then it gets tricky depending on GM call since its reflecting the spell back at its original caster it won't require a caster check on buffs cast by the wizard, but it will require a caster check on any of the buffs cast by other party members on him. It all depends if you rule it as being "cast" by the Magus or cast by the original Caster.
Course at level 17, one has to wonder why the wizard tossed a greater dispel vs disjunction to REALLY gimp the magus....
Or he could have cast time stop, prismatic wall and THEN reverse gravity...add more prismatic wall if the time stop allows. It's a classic.
I've got the fever.
The fever for MORE PRISMATIC WALL!
*clang clang clang*
It works on Greater Dispel magic if the Dispel was targeting the Magus and wasn't cast as an Area Dispel. Then it gets tricky depending on GM call since its reflecting the spell back at its original caster it won't require a caster check on buffs cast by the wizard, but it will require a caster check on any of the buffs cast by other party members on him. It all depends if you rule it as being "cast" by the Magus or cast by the original Caster.
Hey there Decorus,
Yes... the party wizard had cast it at the magus, not as an area dispel.
I did a little reading up on it after I posted originally, and it could have been an interesting set of circumstances, depending on how I would have (might have) ruled the affect.
Heh heh... anyway, it's moot. But thanks for chiming in.
Dean
Course at level 17, one has to wonder why the wizard tossed a greater dispel vs disjunction to REALLY gimp the magus....
Or he could have cast time stop, prismatic wall and THEN reverse gravity...add more prismatic wall if the time stop allows. It's a classic.
I've got the fever.
The fever for MORE PRISMATIC WALL!
*clang clang clang*
So... SmiloDan... are you sayin' the Magus needs more... cowbell? :)
All in all, I like the idea of the Magus class, and I think it's not bad as it is, but a high level magus against an appropriate leveled group of PCs... initiative WILL decide the combat.In all fairness that pretty much holds for any lone caster against a group of ready PCs, especially at high levels.
Gish type casters are not God style wizards as Treantmonk would put it, they really are focused as one on one types of battle casters.
Hi LazarX,
I didn't mean to imply that initiative in this case would only hamper a magus in combat... like you said, it holds true for pretty much any lone caster (or heck lone opponent) at any level (more or less).
I was just trying to illustrate my playtest as best I could, heh heh and even now (a mere night's sleep later) I find that lots of little details are either slipping away, OR I'm remembering something else I forgot. :P
Dean
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So... SmiloDan... are you sayin' the Magus needs more... cowbell? :)Course at level 17, one has to wonder why the wizard tossed a greater dispel vs disjunction to REALLY gimp the magus....
Or he could have cast time stop, prismatic wall and THEN reverse gravity...add more prismatic wall if the time stop allows. It's a classic.
I've got the fever.
The fever for MORE PRISMATIC WALL!
*clang clang clang*
*breaks out the prismatic cowbell*
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I had prepared a 17th level Magus (human, now augmented with the graveknight template from Pathfinder AP #26) to fight against my 17th level group tonight.
Initiative is what decides the winner at this stage.
I'm sorry, but I feel it's worth pointing out that from about 16th level onwards combat becomes VERY much about who wins initiative. Especially with spell casters.
Or he could have cast time stop, prismatic wall and THEN reverse gravity...add more prismatic wall if the time stop allows. It's a classic.
Pity that's not a workable tactic.
Prismatic Wall
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall - a shimmering multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack.
Note my emphasis on vertical, there. You can't cast a horizontal wall above an opponent and them force them to reverse-gravity-fall into it.
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Or he could have cast time stop, prismatic wall and THEN reverse gravity...add more prismatic wall if the time stop allows. It's a classic.Pity that's not a workable tactic.
Note my emphasis on vertical, there. You can't cast a horizontal wall above an opponent and them force them to reverse-gravity-fall into it.Prismatic Wall
Prismatic wall creates a vertical, opaque wall - a shimmering multicolored plane of light that protects you from all forms of attack.
If you lie down (free action), then the horizontal to the enemy wall is a vertical to you wall. Yeah I know, rules lawyering...but it works (until a DM says no).
If you lie down (free action), then the horizontal to the enemy wall is a vertical to you wall. Yeah I know, rules lawyering...but it works (until a DM says no).
*grin* OK, points for inventive thinking, but as a GM myself I would laugh myself silly if someone tried that logic in one of my games.
Getting back towards the original topic (and I apologize for the momentary derailing), I have to wonder how a 17th-level magus (even with a CR14 minion) was meant to be a serious challenge for a well-organized 17th-level party. The action economy heavily favors the four-person party.
It seems likely that the high-level magus, if meant to be a serious challenger, needs something to help balance that action economy. Without summon spells, perhaps something that gives a parallel of that (or adjacent-enemy damaging effects) while maintaining the image of weapons-mage might do -- things like spiritual weapon or blade barrier from PF, or spells like cloud of knives (PHB2), ring of blades or whirling blade (Spell Compendium).
Additionally, teleportation-trick spells that could help the magus position himself on the battlefield and put opponents at a disadvantage (spells like benign transposition, baleful transposition, and the various dimension tango moves from PHB2) seem like a must. (And blink should so be on the list!)
Honestly, I think that the various hand spells are a waste for the magus. I mean, seriously, the interposing hand staying between the magus and only one opponent, providing +4 AC cover for a 5th level spell? Meh.