Orange prism ioun stones stack with one another?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Do multiple orange prism ioun stones stack? Why or why not?

Silver Crusade

IIRC, any stackable ioun stones should have that feature explicitly noted in their description, as stackability isn't a standard feature for them.

Then again I could be remembering ioun stones wrong. Explicit noting of stacking was what they did in Seeker of Secrets at least.

edit-glancing through the PF SRD, that's looking to be the case. Unless it calls out that it can be stacked in the description, it probably shouldn't.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.
core rules pg.208 wrote:

Bonuses without a type

always stack, unless they are from the same source.

the only way i see that this can make sense is if they would not stack.

are there any single items that give bonuses multiple times? so i think its meant that an orange prism ioun stone is the same source as an orange prism ioun stone. even if they are specifically different. thats how i read it. ill check in to see if someone has a more official answer though, im curious myself now.


Typeless bonuses from the same source never stack unless explicitly noted. So, no, orange ioun stones don't stack. And it would be clearly extremely broken if they did, though not as bad as back in 3.5.


By RAW, yes they stack as they're an untyped bonus to caster level. Only typed bonuses don't stack with other (same) typed bonuses.

btw, they're the same as 3.5, which is also an untyped bonus.

Note, that for the other stones it says 'an enhancement bonus to ..., an insight bonus to ..., a competence bonus to ...'

This is omitted (intentionally?) with orange ioun stone.

Liberty's Edge

Tanis wrote:

By RAW, yes they stack as they're an untyped bonus to caster level. Only typed bonuses don't stack with other (same) typed bonuses.

btw, they're the same as 3.5, which is also an untyped bonus.

Note, that for the other stones it says 'an enhancement bonus to ..., an insight bonus to ..., a competence bonus to ...'

This is omitted (intentionally?) with orange ioun stone.

Yeah, I'm going to stick with the "same source doesn't stack" theory. Relying solely on typed bonuses would lead to way too much brokenness and doesn't make much sense. If there's ever a case for "same source" I'd say multiple of the exact same item is it.


That's a valid interpretation as well.

Having thought about it some more, i'll probably do the same.

But this is the Rules forum, so y'know, had to state the RAW.

Liberty's Edge

Tanis wrote:

That's a valid interpretation as well.

Having thought about it some more, i'll probably do the same.

But this is the Rules forum, so y'know, had to state the RAW.

You might want to look at the quote in the third post.


Yeah, i saw that. This is different.

This is two different ioun stones that happen to both grant a caster level.

Not the same spell or effect cast or used twice.

It's a subtle distinction, but important.

Liberty's Edge

Tanis wrote:

Yeah, i saw that. This is different.

This is two different ioun stones that happen to both grant a caster level.

Not the same spell or effect cast or used twice.

It's a subtle distinction, but important.

Yeah, except that that's not a subtle distinction, that's trying to call it a different source because it doesn't happen to be the exact same item (in other words, the same point in space-time). I don't see how two instances of the same exact enchantment wouldn't count as the same source, seeing as how that's the only possible definition of the term "same source" (it's not like you'll have one item grant "+1 caster level" and "+1 caster level" as two separate effects).

In other words, I'm saying it *is* the same effect twice. It may not be cast, but it is still the same effect twice.


yep, thats the same as developing a, say, level 1 spell that gives you a flat +1 to attack and +3 damage for 1 attack. untyped and not scaling.

And then saying the casting stacks if they are from different casters(sources). So you get every wizard and UMD-guy to cast it on you to get a +100 to attack and +300 to damage for your first attack.

Na, even if it's different loun stones, the "source" is the same. the bonus is from a orange loun stone. Even if the stones are 2 different ones, they provide the same kind of buff, from the same kind of power, thus being the same source.


Actually, on the same page under spells, it specifically rules that out.


Tanis wrote:
Actually, on the same page under spells, it specifically rules that out.

yep, but then, it's also ruled out for items.

Or could you give me a more fitting examples for "untyped bonuses from the same source" that are not supposed to stack?

The intent seems to me that untyped should stack with everything else(morale, insight, profane, ...). Even with itself from DIFFERENT items/sources.
Thus ruling out, by raw, stacking from the same source(such as 2 times the same loun stone...if you want to see it that way, the loun stone channels the energy into you, but they both draw upon the same "source".)


MordredofFairy wrote:
Or could you give me a more fitting examples for "untyped bonuses from the same source" that are not supposed to stack?

Casting Keen Weapon twice?

This seems to be where RAW and RAI collide, and i doubt we'll find common ground.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't know that I buy the "they are from the same source" and "stacking them would be broken" comments.

They are two distinctly seperate items. Sounds like two different sources. This usually isn't a problem with other items since other items either have (1) typed bonuses or (2) use up limited body slots.

What's more, they're just so damn expensive for what usually amounts to +1d6 damage or a little extra range or duration.

If you were to assume they stacked and bought five of the buggers, you would most assuredly suffer in other areas due to lack of gear.

If you want to play a wizard with +5 caster level, but no bracers of armor, cloak of resistance, or belt of mighty constitution, be my guest. Hope you make it through the week.


Not to forget the +1 to pierce SR and to concentration checks and caster level/power checks


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Pavlovian wrote:
Not to forget the +1 to pierce SR and to concentration checks and caster level/power checks

Still not broken.

Sovereign Court

*Sniff Sniff*...


Tanis wrote:
MordredofFairy wrote:
Or could you give me a more fitting examples for "untyped bonuses from the same source" that are not supposed to stack?

Casting Keen Weapon twice?

This seems to be where RAW and RAI collide, and i doubt we'll find common ground.

i thought we already ruled spells out based on your findings? We are only talking items here, AFAIK.

also, yes, they are costly.

the main problem comes into play if you use creation rules to copy that. Make that +1/+3 spell into a pebble that does not take up a body slot and works continually. Sure it'll be expensive, but once you get about 10 of them, things get nasty, problem courtesy not of having an item allowing you to get miniscule bonuses, but those bonuses being stackable.

As for the orange Ioun stone, yes, its pricey, i actually think too pricey for such an effect. That does not necessarily mean it was designed to offset stackability.

The Exchange

Yes they do indeed stack. Due to their shape you can stack them upon one another quite easily.... oh you mean do the effects stack? Hell no, you can't cast the same spell over and over to gain stacking bonuses, so why would you be able to buy multiples of the same item to stack bonuses. Common sense should have a place at the game table without the developers having to hold our hands every moment we play.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
core rules pg.208 wrote:

"Spells and Magical effects"

...
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
...
(or from effects other than spells)

no stack.


Ravingdork wrote:
I don't know that I buy the "they are from the same source" and "stacking them would be broken" comments.

If two different instances of the same spell are the same source, why would one assume that the opposite is true of two instances of the same magic item?

As for the second,

Quote:
If you want to play a wizard with +5 caster level, but no bracers of armor, cloak of resistance, or belt of mighty constitution, be my guest. Hope you make it through the week.

Did you post this in honest good faith? I would think it blindingly obvious that there comes a level when you can afford five orange ioun stones as well as all the rest of that gear.

The Exchange

"Follow the yellow brick road, follow the yellow brick road...."

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:

I don't know that I buy the "they are from the same source" and "stacking them would be broken" comments.

They are two distinctly seperate items. Sounds like two different sources. This usually isn't a problem with other items since other items either have (1) typed bonuses or (2) use up limited body slots.

What's more, they're just so damn expensive for what usually amounts to +1d6 damage or a little extra range or duration.

If you were to assume they stacked and bought five of the buggers, you would most assuredly suffer in other areas due to lack of gear.

If you want to play a wizard with +5 caster level, but no bracers of armor, cloak of resistance, or belt of mighty constitution, be my guest. Hope you make it through the week.

This is not about cost or anything like that. The distinction that you are drawing is the wrong conclusion though. "Different Source" is incorrect using your standards though. When a magic item is call "item A" and there is another "item A" magic item of the same name. type and everything, then it does NOT stack because they are the same. Just because you have two "Item A's" does not make it two distinct items.

So using the Ioun Stones, they would have to be different colors in order for them to stack.

This is conclusion I come up with and seems to be RAW from what I can tell.


So, the "correct" way to say it is that each untyped bonus technically has a "type" which is the same as the source.
So, we can say the type is an "Orange Prism Ioun Stone" bonus, which stacks with anything other than another Orange Prism Ioun Stone.

Reminds me of something that an evil DM tried to do once. Gave one of his BBEG's a sack full of luck stones, thinking all of them would stack together to make the guy unkillable. To be fair, he was used to 2nd edition and hadn't gotten up to speed with 3rd edition rules at the time, and hadn't noticed the stacking rules yet, since all of that would have had to be in the item description in 2nd ed.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Coriat wrote:
Did you post this in honest good faith? I would think it blindingly obvious that there comes a level when you can afford five orange ioun stones as well as all the rest of that gear.

Absolutely yes.

The rest of that gear scales and becomes much, much more expensive if you hope to keep ahead of the curve. I suppose you could get 5+ stones and all that stuff at, oh I dunno, 20th-level, but then you would be out 150,000gp that probably could have been better spent elsewhere.

Dark Archive

Not that it helps with the issue of stacking but in one of the older editions (2nd or 3.0) you were only allowed to have 3 active ioun stones anyway. If the stone was designed to stack that would limit its overpowering effect. +3 max to castor level. Not weak but not unlimited either. Using that rule I believe it was meant to stack.
just my 2cp


Ravingdork wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Did you post this in honest good faith? I would think it blindingly obvious that there comes a level when you can afford five orange ioun stones as well as all the rest of that gear.

Absolutely yes.

The rest of that gear scales and becomes much, much more expensive if you hope to keep ahead of the curve. I suppose you could get 5+ stones and all that stuff at, oh I dunno, 20th-level, but then you would be out 150,000gp that probably could have been better spent elsewhere.

I don't let them stack, but my players have never even asked about that honestly---probably because they know what my answer would be. The class that really has spells that are super nasty based on your caster level though is the priest (holy word, blasphemy, etc). A high caster level there can be mean. The people that have the most interest in my experience though in the orange ion stone are the gishes and the mystic theurges.


This looks completely ambiguous to me as far as RAW goes, since "source" isn't defined. Seems like you could treat a "source" to be the class of all item X's, or an instance of item X.

My opinion is that a "source" is a single instance of an item in this case, and I'd allow it to stack because the bonus is untyped.

Asking a variant of the question, out of curiosity, could one stack:

orange prism (+1 caster)
flawed orange prism (+1 caster, -2 primary ability score)
sepia ellipsoid (combines effects of iridescent spindle, pearly white spindle, and orange prism)

The latter two are from the "Seeker of Secrets" book.

This seems more cut and dried, although one could argue that the source is an Ioun Stone in this case (color, shape, and quality are irrelevant), and disallow stacking too.

I don't think either ruling is wrong by RAW at this point.


FarmerBob wrote:
This looks completely ambiguous to me as far as RAW goes, since "source" isn't defined. Seems like you could treat a "source" to be the class of all item X's, or an instance of item X.

When in doubt, the old 3.5 FAQ provides some insight.

Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?

Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source.

So, multiple orange prisms count as the same source, or at least they did in 3.5. I stand corrected!

Given that, I'd probably close the loophole and call the source an "Ioun Stone", and not just an "Orange Prism Ioun Stone".


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
FarmerBob wrote:
FarmerBob wrote:
This looks completely ambiguous to me as far as RAW goes, since "source" isn't defined. Seems like you could treat a "source" to be the class of all item X's, or an instance of item X.

When in doubt, the old 3.5 FAQ provides some insight.

Can a character benefit from multiple nightsticks (Libris Mortis 78) or multiple orange prism ioun stones (DMG 260)?

Neither of these items provides extra bonuses in multiples. The rules for stacking (Rules Compendium 21) do not allow untyped bonuses to stack if they come from the same source.

So, multiple orange prisms count as the same source, or at least they did in 3.5. I stand corrected!

Given that, I'd probably close the loophole and call the source an "Ioun Stone", and not just an "Orange Prism Ioun Stone".

Though I am loath to look towards v3.5 for Pathfinder rulings, it was the v3.5 designers who designed the item, and knowing what their intent was when they made it is enough to satisfy me.

Thanks!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Orange prism ioun stones stack with one another? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions