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To 20th level again?
I am asking because the average AP right now only takes us to 14-15th level on average. Is it possible to do a longer AP or one where it will take us to the higher levels once again like the first AP's did back when we had the Shackled City and Age of Worms?
Do you all think that we should get one occasionally? Or am I just blowing smoke and having wishful dreams? :)
Well I don't think ya will. For one they didn't sell well past level 15 or 16 we have been told and another they are locked into a 6 issues AP vs the old 12 issue ones. It be much harder I think to pile 20 levels into 6 issues. I find the 14-15 levels hard enough to believe myself for 6 adventures.
I just don't see it happening.
For what it's worth (and I could be wrong because I haven't been able to go all the way thru an AP yet due to moving), I'll bet plenty of plots crop up on the side as a byproduct of that much play. So you might find that your own homegrown stuff might do a bit more 'writing itself' at that point, and it won't be as much of a chore to fill in those last levels yourself.
Not that that answers your question, but just as words of encouragement!
Creative Director
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To 20th level again?
I am asking because the average AP right now only takes us to 14-15th level on average. Is it possible to do a longer AP or one where it will take us to the higher levels once again like the first AP's did back when we had the Shackled City and Age of Worms?
Do you all think that we should get one occasionally? Or am I just blowing smoke and having wishful dreams? :)
Someday, yes. We'll do a 20th level AP now and then, rarely. Not sure how we'll do it yet, but I'd love to do one again.
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In the AP's that I have it really does not give advice on prewritten modules other then ideas on what can be done. Ideas while they are nice and all I just do not have the physical time to run a weekly game and write and flesh out furthering a campaign with out having pre-written modules to fall back on.
James I really appreciate your coming in here and replying to my original posting. In an AP is there any way that we can get advice on what modules could follow the AP's or maybe even write modules with the AP in mind? That could be one way of advancing the AP without actually releasing them all at once like you have been doing?? This making sense at all? Hope so! :)
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I think the cap for an AP at around lvl~17 is fine, because the way XP are handed out differs greatly.
I, e. g. will incorporate stuff from "Realm of the Fellnight Queen" in my current Kingmaker campaign and I started the whole AP with an introduction by running "Falcon Hollow" stuff.
The reason why there is a lvl20 is manyfold, two reasons, which come to my mind:
-that's the way it's (always) been in "the world's oldest rpg" and PF is also compatible with D&D
-you can always run your own campaign in a homebrew world/Golarion, where there are no limits on XP and lvl reachable
-it's a nice round number
-Paizo plans to do epic rules! (which again points to #1)
Hm, more than two reasons, but anyways.
Ruyan.
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well, i am confused. I'll first say that I am totally new to any RPG so... If Paizo doesn't want to make adventure paths up to level 20, why is there a level 20?
It's not that they don't want to, it's that it's difficult to squeeze it into the space they have for an AP
Another reason it's nice to have the space is to allow the generation of challenging opponents, without relying on monsters for the base.
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Creative Director
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well, i am confused. I'll first say that I am totally new to any RPG so... If Paizo doesn't want to make adventure paths up to level 20, why is there a level 20?
Some day we WILL make an AP that goes to level 20.
But even if we don't—even if we never make an AP that goes beyond 17th level or thereabouts (and that IS how far most of our APs go; we've only done one that tops out at 14th or 15th level)—levels 18–20 are still useful to us in building bad guys to threaten 16th to 17th level characters. Even if no player EVER gets to go above 17th level, we still need to be able to build a bad guy who can threaten a group of PCs, and that basically means we need to be able to create a bad guy of a few levels higher than the average party level.
Now obviously we DON'T want to think of the game in that regard—it's fun for PCs to get to 20th level, and that's why every AP provides advice to the GM on how to continue the game beyond the end of an AP.
But again... some day we WILL make an AP that goes to level 20.
There was a 1st ed. AD&D module, "The Throne of Bloodstone", that was for characters of level 18-100
Greetings, fellow travellers.
The box sets of the 80's went to level 36.
//humble voice//
...then forgive my ignorancy - I only started roleplaying in the mid-90s.Ruyan.
well, i am confused. I'll first say that I am totally new to any RPG so... If Paizo doesn't want to make adventure paths up to level 20, why is there a level 20?Some day we WILL make an AP that goes to level 20.
But even if we don't—even if we never make an AP that goes beyond 17th level or thereabouts (and that IS how far most of our APs go; we've only done one that tops out at 14th or 15th level)—levels 18–20 are still useful to us in building bad guys to threaten 16th to 17th level characters. Even if no player EVER gets to go above 17th level, we still need to be able to build a bad guy who can threaten a group of PCs, and that basically means we need to be able to create a bad guy of a few levels higher than the average party level.
Now obviously we DON'T want to think of the game in that regard—it's fun for PCs to get to 20th level, and that's why every AP provides advice to the GM on how to continue the game beyond the end of an AP.
But again... some day we WILL make an AP that goes to level 20.
I could easily see a short article at the tail end of such an AP giving advice & guidelines for play beyond 20th. Indeed, it might be a requirement given the reticence towards publishing a book on Epic-level play.
well, i am confused. I'll first say that I am totally new to any RPG so... If Paizo doesn't want to make adventure paths up to level 20, why is there a level 20?
Not everyone uses the Adventure Paths or uses them exclusively. Even if Paizo doesn't ever make Adventure Paths that go to 20th level, that doesn't mean that no one else has campaigns that go that high. You can write your own story line tha brings you up to 20th level. That's why there is a level 20.
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Creative Director
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I could easily see a short article at the tail end of such an AP giving advice & guidelines for play beyond 20th. Indeed, it might be a requirement given the reticence towards publishing a book on Epic-level play.
In fact, we provided just that type of article at the end of Kingmaker, and will be doing so for every adventure path thereafter.
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Besides continuing the practice of putting "where to go from here" comments in the final book of each AP, I would like to see stand-alone module for levels 16 to 20, that reference some of the NPC's and plot points from the various AP's.
It is an understatement that it would be difficult to put plot hooks that could continue from any of the AP's, but I think having a single high-level module would be preferable to expanding APs to seven books and the implicit slow down in the production schedule that it would entail.
BTW I have not seen The Whitchwar Legacy . Would it serve well as a "capstone module" for an AP?
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Creative Director
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Besides continuing the practice of putting "where to go from here" comments in the final book of each AP, I would like to see stand-alone module for levels 16 to 20, that reference some of the NPC's and plot points from the various AP's.
It is an understatement that it would be difficult to put plot hooks that could continue from any of the AP's, but I think having a single high-level module would be preferable to expanding APs to seven books and the implicit slow down in the production schedule that it would entail.
BTW I have not seen The Whitchwar Legacy . Would it serve well as a "capstone module" for an AP?
The Witchwar Legacy is set at 17th level precisely so it CAN work for a group who has completed an Adventure Path. We'll certainly be watching the reviews and the sales for this adventure; if it's well received we'll certainly print more.
As for actual sequel adventures... we're a bit nervous about those because the more you present an adventure as a sequel, the better chance there is folks won't buy it because they haven't yet played the original. That said, next year we'll be doing a bit of cross AP/module experimentation; we'll see how that works.
It was not always that way. The box sets of the 80's went to level 36. The companion box set was 15 through 25 I believe. Master's box went to 36, then immortals had no level... I think.
-that's the way it's (always) been in "the world's oldest rpg" and PF is also compatible with D&D
While that is true, Pathfinder and 3.X evolved from the Advanced D&D line, which has always had 1-20 as the base. Original D&D and the boxes that followed had a much slower progression after a certain point. Usually around 9th level you stopped getting full HD and just got +1 hp per level after that. Of course the XP per level was more linear, so you'd go up in levels faster after that. The difference between a level 15 and a level 36 in BECMI is much closer to the difference between level 15 and level 18 in AD&D.
The problem is, most games don't actually last to 20th level. And many of those don't use pre-written modules. So if you really want Paizo to make more of them, go buy the high level modules they already have produced (Blood of the Dragonscar for level 15, and now Witchwar Legacy at 17). They get a lot of sales figures from the Module line, which has a lot more variable purchases. Less people subscribe to the whole line, picking up only modules they are interested in. If adventures from 1-5 sell 6x that of 16-20, and adventures from 6-10 sell 4x that of 16-20, and adventures of 11-15 sell 2x that of 16-20, it is hard to convince Paizo to invest in the higher level range. (All numbers are made up to illustrate the point, but are reflective of things I've seen discussed other places.)
This is compounded by the fact that fewer groups finish and AP than start it. Sales of the later volumes are always lower than the first installment. Many people may check out a path and then decide it isn't to their tastes. So while some of us may collect all of them because we are insane, enough people drop off to make a dent in the numbers. This is certainly less so in the AP line than the old magazine, primarily because the AP is billed as an Adventure Path first. The Dungeon APs may have had a popular following, but more people picked up Dungeon for filler 1-shot adventures.
I'm sure they will do high level stuff every once in a while, but you have to vote with your wallet when they do!
I think what I'd rather see is an AP that takes you from 15-25 or so. So once you have these awesome characters you're very proud of at 15th level you don't have to just abandon them. A venue to continue adventuring with them published in an AP. Preferably with Epic rules :)
In fact, we provided just that type of article at the end of Kingmaker, and will be doing so for every adventure path thereafter.
Despite being a player who doesn't enjoy the high level play as much (I would still enjoy an AP that goes up to 20 if the story supports it like in STAP), I was really happy to see this type of article in the final issue of an AP. There is a lot of clamoring for this type of thing, but I don't know if enough of the buyer base would support the higher level modules.
Anyway, it was a really good addition. It would be interesting to hear how many people finishing Kingmaker actually found it useful.
Sean Mahoney
I think what I'd rather see is an AP that takes you from 15-25 or so. So once you have these awesome characters you're very proud of at 15th level you don't have to just abandon them. A venue to continue adventuring with them published in an AP. Preferably with Epic rules :)
This is something I'm not really that interested in, and I doubt it would be financially feasible for Paizo. As they've said, the 17-20 lvl AP mods don't sell as well as the lower level ones.
My feelings on this:
1) As a GM (and the one who buys the mods we play) I'm not as fond of running the higher level adventures. By that point, magic makes a lot of the more interesting role playing encounters too "easy" or at least not as interactive. And the monsters are just too much for the most part.
2) If you want to run an adventure at that level, there are lots of options already available in PF. Look at the APs:
And so on.
And some adventures allow for more side quests as well. For my ROTR campaign, we used Into the Haunted Woods as the first adventure (placing it near Wolf's Ear) with the heroes all coming from Riddlesport and Cairwynvian. Then we did Burnt Offerings, followed by a side quest back to Wolf's Ear
[spoiler=Movie plot spoiler] They were already on their way there to follow up on the backstory of one of the NPCs in the party when Classic Monsters Revisited came out, giving me the stat block for one of the villains in town...[spoiler]
And then we did Skinsaw Murders. The next adventure will be Armageddon Echo, with Shelelu (who is in both APs...) coming back to recruit the heroes to help against the dangers in Celwynvian. (If you wnat to know the secret of Celwynvian, play that module...)..
Then we'll do Hook Mountain...
If you want more adventures, look at the APs, there ARE lots of great ideas there for high level stuff. If elf-threatening greater demons, spawn of Rovagug, and lovecraftian horrors don't get your players going, there are also lots of high level adventures sprinkled throughout the supplements as well. The red dragon that tyrranizes Darkmoon Vale comes to mind...
While that is true, Pathfinder and 3.X evolved from the Advanced D&D line, which has always had 1-20 as the base.
(Except for monks. And bards. And druids. And assassins.) ;-)
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Besides continuing the practice of putting "where to go from here" comments in the final book of each AP, I would like to see stand-alone module for levels 16 to 20, that reference some of the NPC's and plot points from the various AP's.
It is an understatement that it would be difficult to put plot hooks that could continue from any of the AP's, but I think having a single high-level module would be preferable to expanding APs to seven books and the implicit slow down in the production schedule that it would entail.
BTW I have not seen The Whitchwar Legacy . Would it serve well as a "capstone module" for an AP?
The Witchwar Legacy is set at 17th level precisely so it CAN work for a group who has completed an Adventure Path. We'll certainly be watching the reviews and the sales for this adventure; if it's well received we'll certainly print more.
As for actual sequel adventures... we're a bit nervous about those because the more you present an adventure as a sequel, the better chance there is folks won't buy it because they haven't yet played the original. That said, next year we'll be doing a bit of cross AP/module experimentation; we'll see how that works.
You don't have to necessarily have to advertise it as a capstone or a sequel to an adventure path as such. You can just do it as a stand alone and then in the AP in question show that it was done as a sequel and how to connect the dots so to speak in the AP itself? This way it can be sold as both a sequel a stand a lone? That make sense?
While that is true, Pathfinder and 3.X evolved from the Advanced D&D line, which has always had 1-20 as the base.(Except for monks. And bards. And druids. And assassins.) ;-)
(And clerics. And illusionists. And magic-users. Those spell progression lists kept improving after 20th level in the 1st Ed AD&D PHB; IIRC, they went to 29th level for clerics and magic users and 27th level for illusionists. Also, IIRC the thief skill tables also kept improving; I don't remember exactly when they maxed out, but I do remember the thief-acrobat skills maxed out at 23rd.)
The 20 level base was something that was instituted in 2nd Ed AD&D. Even then, it was more of a guideline, with various supplements (Complete Wizard's Handbook, specific setting material, etc.) quickly expanding beyond that.
You don't have to necessarily have to advertise it as a capstone or a sequel to an adventure path as such. You can just do it as a stand alone and then in the AP in question show that it was done as a sequel and how to connect the dots so to speak in the AP itself? This way it can be sold as both a sequel a stand alone? That make sense?Besides continuing the practice of putting "where to go from here" comments in the final book of each AP, I would like to see stand-alone module for levels 16 to 20, that reference some of the NPC's and plot points from the various AP's.
It is an understatement that it would be difficult to put plot hooks that could continue from any of the AP's, but I think having a single high-level module would be preferable to expanding APs to seven books and the implicit slow down in the production schedule that it would entail.
BTW I have not seen The Whitchwar Legacy . Would it serve well as a "capstone module" for an AP?
The Witchwar Legacy is set at 17th level precisely so it CAN work for a group who has completed an Adventure Path. We'll certainly be watching the reviews and the sales for this adventure; if it's well received we'll certainly print more.
As for actual sequel adventures... we're a bit nervous about those because the more you present an adventure as a sequel, the better chance there is folks won't buy it because they haven't yet played the original. That said, next year we'll be doing a bit of cross AP/module experimentation; we'll see how that works.
Or mention one or more APs in the plot hooks of the module so that DMs know how best to tie them in. Even if the suggestions include replacing character X with character Y from adventure path Z, it's better than nothing.
As for actual sequel adventures... we're a bit nervous about those because the more you present an adventure as a sequel, the better chance there is folks won't buy it because they haven't yet played the original. That said, next year we'll be doing a bit of cross AP/module experimentation; we'll see how that works.
Cross AP/module experimentation ? Sounds good ! Count me in for that kind of content... I just don't have time to lovingly build worlds and nicely threaded campaigns ( running them is time consuming enough ), so if theres a gap - I tend to do without. Having the option of slotting modules easily into an AP setting ( at their conclusion or otherwise ) is fantastic for me, I can run it as part of a continuation of the campaign, or just as easily run it as a one off elsewhere. Whilst I understand the complications of the set piece additions that were curtailed in the AP series ( from a publishing POV ), I still *really* liked them for the modularity / non linear bit of adventuring they could provide, sticking them in where I/ the players chose. To my mind modules with optional hooks for an AP are just this kind of set piece thinking writ large ( without the management headaches of publishing deadlines yada ). Which is a thumbs up from me.
That said, next year we'll be doing a bit of cross AP/module experimentation; we'll see how that works.
Awesome.
While that is true, Pathfinder and 3.X evolved from the Advanced D&D line, which has always had 1-20 as the base.(Except for monks. And bards. And druids. And assassins.) ;-)(And clerics. And illusionists. And magic-users. Those spell progression lists kept improving after 20th level in the 1st Ed AD&D PHB; IIRC, they went to 29th level for clerics and magic users and 27th level for illusionists. Also, IIRC the thief skill tables also kept improving; I don't remember exactly when they maxed out, but I do remember the thief-acrobat skills maxed out at 23rd.)
The 20 level base was something that was instituted in 2nd Ed AD&D. Even then, it was more of a guideline, with various supplements (Complete Wizard's Handbook, specific setting material, etc.) quickly expanding beyond that.
I'll blame my failing memory, I haven't actually played AD&D in at least 20 years. These days when I feel like rolling old-school I use my Rules Cyclopedia. My point still stands that the AD&D line evolved toward a 1-20 game whereas the original D&D -> BECMI -> Rule Cyclopedia evolved toward a 1-36 game.
That said, next year we'll be doing a bit of cross AP/module experimentation; we'll see how that works.
Definitely looking forward to this.
I think what I'd rather see is an AP that takes you from 15-25 or so. So once you have these awesome characters you're very proud of at 15th level you don't have to just abandon them. A venue to continue adventuring with them published in an AP. Preferably with Epic rules :)This is something I'm not really that interested in, and I doubt it would be financially feasible for Paizo. As they've said, the 17-20 lvl AP mods don't sell as well as the lower level ones.
My feelings on this:
1) As a GM (and the one who buys the mods we play) I'm not as fond of running the higher level adventures. By that point, magic makes a lot of the more interesting role playing encounters too "easy" or at least not as interactive. And the monsters are just too much for the most part...
I second meatrace. Though two do not a target market make.
I think the trick might be to have the party adventuring in ‘The Great Beyond’ by level 21. Sadly, don’t see Paizo having the time to flesh out that setting just yet, not to mention the rules, but I can still hope for sooner rather than later. A planer adventure certainly has the potential to generate a lot of interest. And if they managed to make epic play entertaining and (relatively) uncomplicated for GMs it could take off.
James,
if the final encounter in a 20th level AP features an epic level kobold, I will kiss you on the mouth (just kidding).
I could easily see a short article at the tail end of such an AP giving advice & guidelines for play beyond 20th. Indeed, it might be a requirement given the reticence towards publishing a book on Epic-level play.In fact, we provided just that type of article at the end of Kingmaker, and will be doing so for every adventure path thereafter.
Just have to say I loved that bit of info at the end of King Maker. I could could probably take the game on another 5 levels beyond with all that goodness!
I want an AP that goes up to 11.
I think an appropriate place for a level 20 adventure would be a at The Last Wall. The AP could be built around the premise of a long and constant siege of demonic hordes. The adventurers could start out with sniffing out infiltrators and possibly collaborators. Meanwhile in the background Iomadaes followers try to stave off one of the most coordinated attacks on The Last Wall since its foundation. The mood changes as the defenders of the fortress start losing ground, supplies run short, reinforcements dwindle. The PCs can start participating in city defenses as they become higher level. Eventually though there is a climactic battle where the defenses are breached and your level 12+ adventurers by that point must step in to become champions themselves, beat back the enemy. At level 15+ they must push the fight away from the city while it recovers from the last fight. Near level 20 another surge of the enemy pushes the fight back to the city and you have your final battle at the city gates.
That would be awesome. :3
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I think an appropriate place for a level 20 adventure would be a at The Last Wall. The AP could be built around the premise of a long and constant siege of demonic hordes. The adventurers could start out with sniffing out infiltrators and possibly collaborators. Meanwhile in the background Iomadaes followers try to stave off one of the most coordinated attacks on The Last Wall since its foundation. The mood changes as the defenders of the fortress start losing ground, supplies run short, reinforcements dwindle. The PCs can start participating in city defenses as they become higher level. Eventually though there is a climactic battle where the defenses are breached and your level 12+ adventurers by that point must step in to become champions themselves, beat back the enemy. At level 15+ they must push the fight away from the city while it recovers from the last fight. Near level 20 another surge of the enemy pushes the fight back to the city and you have your final battle at the city gates.
That would be awesome. :3
I think you might be mixing Lastwall (near Belkzen/Ustalav, watching for the return of the Whispering Tyrant) and Mendev (next to the Worldwound, fighting Demons)
However, either would be brilliant for such an adventure.