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Earlier today, a friend and I were talking about ways for non-casters to create magic items. He mentioned this idea about stealing them using the crafting rules, and from there we came up with the following:
The Burglary Job
Requirements:
Burgle Magic [Item]
X Ranks in Profession (Burglary)
A non-caster must take the appropriate Burgle Magic Item feat, just like a caster must take the appropriate Craft Magic Item feat to make a magic item. They must also have skill ranks in Profession (Burglary) equal to the caster level requirement for the appropriate feat.
This allows the non-caster to steal the item desired.
Example Feats:
Burgle Magic Arms & Armor
5 Ranks in Profession (Burglary)
Burgle Potion
3 Ranks in Profession (Burglary)
Burgle Scroll
1 Rank in Profession (Burglary)
Cost:
The cost to burgle the item is equal to the cost to make the item (half the base price of the item). These costs cover paying informants, reconnaissance of the location, bribe fees, necessary tools to perform the job (such as tools to get past defenses, magical and non-magical alike), traveling costs (or teleportation costs), etc.
Time:
Normally, the time required for a caster is 8 hours per 1000gp of the item’s base price. For the burglary job, it is 1 day per 1000gp. This means that the potential thief cannot do anything else except focus on the job for the entire duration. The time includes gathering information about the item, traveling time, reconnaissance of the location, bribing guards, time to purchase necessary equipment, planning the job, performing the job, hiring help, and anything else associated with the job. Sleeping, eating, etc, are included.
The minimum time is 1 day, and the character cannot take more than 1 burglary job at a time. This simulates the caster’s requirement to have a minimum of 8 hours, and inability to create more than 1 item per 8 hours.
Skill Check:
At the end of the job, you roll a Profession (Burglary) check to see how you performed. The DC is 5 + two times the caster level required to craft the item. Success means that you successfully burgled the item and got away clean. If you fail, you did not steal the item, but you escaped without getting caught. If you fail by 5 or more, you were caught and you are now in jail. Regardless of how you fail, the material costs and time are still spent. You cannot take 10 or 20 on this roll.
Other
The GM decides if the item to be stolen is in the same city/town/etc as the character’s current location, or if travel was required. If the character is caught, there is usually a way for the party to find out, such as the character cast a last minute message scroll, or one of his/her partners escaped and sought the party out to rely the information. Perhaps the jail allows one carrier pigeon message per prisoner upon arrest. This creates a potential new plot-line for the group. How long the character stays in jail is dependent on the GM (some places have harsher rules than others). Suggested penalties are 1 week or month per 1000gp value of the item, with a minimum of 1 week. A successful diplomacy check (DC = the same as the Burgle DC) allows the character to make a successful bribe to be released, at 25% of the base cost of the item.
It is up to the GM/Group to decide if the Burgle Magic Item feats can only be used to burgle magic items already published by Paizo and 3rd Party Publishers, or if the players can design their own magic items to steal, just like players can design their own magic items to craft (pending GM/Group approval, as always).
Unlike normal magic item creation rules, this cannot be used to add new abilities to old magic items.
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“Hey, I commissioned this magic spellbook for you.”
“Thanks! By the way, why does it say ‘Property of SK Reynolds. If found, I will find you.’ on the inside?”
“Oh, that? Um... I just had that put there to scare away any potential thieves.”
This seems to have massive role play potential alone.
Actually I think it cuts out a lot of otherwise awesome RP potential, reducing the fun of a well planned heist to a single dice roll.
Imagine if you turned to a party and said 'instead of combat, we now just roll a skill check to see if you won'.
I liked the idea of this, getting informants etc, but having the end job just roll and win is not to my taste.
Actually I think it cuts out a lot of otherwise awesome RP potential, reducing the fun of a well planned heist to a single dice roll.
Imagine if you turned to a party and said 'instead of combat, we now just roll a skill check to see if you won'.
I liked the idea of this, getting informants etc, but having the end job just roll and win is not to my taste.
The same is true for acquiring ingredients for crafting magic items.
Heist jobs are fun in theory, but I've never actually seen one. I've never played one, and I've never seen one printed in a module (I would love to be shown wrong on this one). I do hear about them, but are they really all that common?
ive played several, heists are fun but they take A LOT of time to plan out, especially at high lvls.
I like the feats and think its fairly balanced altough. 2 things that bother me.
The non magical crafter has to take master craftman AND craft arms and armor to craft magical arms and armirs. This feat is too easily accessible
And 2; the dc seems too high for high level items. a ghost touch armor has a caster lvl 15. thats a DC 35 to pull off for an item usually accessiblr to characters lvl 10
my opinion, take it or leave it :-)
I guess i am the only one who pictured what would happen if the original owner tracked down the feat user.
Edit; and in my games i allow the role play of feats if desired.
Heist jobs are fun in theory, but I've never actually seen one.
Can I just say 'Depends on your group'?
I have run many, and been part of many, however thats because my group of friends and I were all mad keen on Guy Ritchie ('Lock Stock')/Tarantino/genre films and stories/novels/books full of these sorts of capers.
They tend to be planning heavy and combat light, which for some people is the worst game ever.
Thieves Guild/Rogue heavy games are highly rewarding for the right group, and pretty ordinary if thats not your particluar caper.
Along with those is the 'undercover job' missions where half the party ends up having to infiltrate somewhere, often sans gear, whilst the other half have to work out how to secretly get in and bring the gear with them etc.
They need to be well thought out ahead of time by the GM, and similarly the players will need a significant amount of time for their planning... I recall the last one was almost the whole session just thinking through and setting up the job. Session 2 was the execution.
Dunno, maybe there's a bunch of modules just waiting to be written for such a thing, I guess there's now modules for just about everything else, including Pirates.
No, that counts as a Robbery! :p
I like the feats and think its fairly balanced altough. 2 things that bother me.The non magical crafter has to take master craftman AND craft arms and armor to craft magical arms and armirs. This feat is too easily accessible
And 2; the dc seems too high for high level items. a ghost touch armor has a caster lvl 15. thats a DC 35 to pull off for an item usually accessiblr to characters lvl 10
my opinion, take it or leave it :-)
1) I read the Master Craftsmen feat. The disadvantages of Master Craftsmen is it's a two feat dip, and you are limited to Magic Arms & Armor and Wonderous Items. The advantage with Master Craftsmen is that you won't go to jail, you may not have people hunting you down later as they try to solve the crime, and you can add to the magic item later.
I thought this would be a good alternative, depending on how you would want to play it out.
2) I only barely considered that. I should have put more thought into it. I was afraid that 5 + caster level would be way too easy. Since Profession is a class skill for all classes, we're looking at at least a +13 by level 10. With 5 + CL, the DC is 20, a 7+ gets it. With 5+2xCL, the DC is 35, so a 22+ gets it. Ouch. What about 5+1.5xCL? DC = 27, so you'd need a 14+. Tough, but with a WIS modifier, it can drop it, and Skill Focus could help out.
What do you think? 5+CL or 5+1.5xCL?
Heist jobs are fun in theory, but I've never actually seen one.Can I just say 'Depends on your group'?
I have run many, and been part of many, however thats because my group of friends and I were all mad keen on Guy Ritchie ('Lock Stock')/Tarantino/genre films and stories/novels/books full of these sorts of capers.
They tend to be planning heavy and combat light, which for some people is the worst game ever.
Thieves Guild/Rogue heavy games are highly rewarding for the right group, and pretty ordinary if thats not your particluar caper.
Along with those is the 'undercover job' missions where half the party ends up having to infiltrate somewhere, often sans gear, whilst the other half have to work out how to secretly get in and bring the gear with them etc.
They need to be well thought out ahead of time by the GM, and similarly the players will need a significant amount of time for their planning... I recall the last one was almost the whole session just thinking through and setting up the job. Session 2 was the execution.
Dunno, maybe there's a bunch of modules just waiting to be written for such a thing, I guess there's now modules for just about everything else, including Pirates.
Can I play at your table? :)
I've always wanted to play in a heist game. I guess this was kind of my way to have characters that can go on a heist, seeing that I've never had the opportunity to go on one in an actual game.
On the other hand, in some of the Magic Item Shoppe threads I've read, there was a lot of discussion about shop defenses and how the GM just wouldn't let anyone steal from the shops. This, I believe, provides a way around that. It still lets players steal magic items, but in a balanced way. So long as if the GM is ok with crafting rules, that is.
Heists are fun but not suitable for every character still and really there is no reason why spellcasters wouldn't be able to (some would say better). Why not simply remove the caster lvl requirement on feats and replace it with ranks in spellcraft ?
Heists are fun but not suitable for every character still and really there is no reason why spellcasters wouldn't be able to (some would say better). Why not simply remove the caster lvl requirement on feats and replace it with ranks in spellcraft ?
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say, here.
1) If you are saying, "Why can't spellcasters take the burglary feats?" then I agree. I put non-caster in the description when I wrote it up, but by the time I thought to change it, I couldn't edit the original post anymore. Really, any character could take these.
2) If you are suggesting that all of this could be circumvented by simply changing the normal crafting feat requirements of caster level to spellcraft ranks, then that is certainly possible.
Advantages: Other characters can craft as casters can, using rules already set in place.
Disadvantage: Other characters will rely upon scrolls or casters to get the appropriate spells for making the magic item. This will increase the cost and make some of the craft feats, such as scribe scroll, completely pointless for a non-caster. It will also make many cheap magic items pointless to make.
Plus, then the character's wouldn't be able to go on a heist! :)
Edit: Also, there is already a way for non-casters to do this: Master Craftsmen feat.
3) If you are also saying that casters are still better than non-casters, I would agree. However, most casters are already feat starved, and taking crafting feats is not recommended in most of the optimization guides. This provides an opportunity for other builds - which may not be as feat starved as most casters - to "craft" magic items in a new flavorful way.
Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll both have a special rule on the time requirements:
If the cost is 250gp or less, then it only takes 2 hours.
If you wanted, you could translate this into the Burgle Potion and Burgle Scroll feats. This would allow the characters to acquire these items multiple times a day. Of course, you would have to adjudicate that the character must be near civilization to do this, and the larger the city the less likely the locals will be able to solve the crime (if you choose to incorporate that aspect of these feats).
Remember though, that just because characters are stealing magic items through the use of these feats, it doesn't mean that they are stealing from Magic Item Shoppes. They could be taking things from a Royal Vault, a near empty Winter Manor (during the summer), a merchant ship or caravan, a goblin chief's house, an old abandoned hunting shack (for some cheap potions or scrolls), etc. Regardless of where the item was stolen, the costs and time requirements remain the same.
I guess i am the only one who pictured what would happen if the original owner tracked down the feat user.
Edit; and in my games i allow the role play of feats if desired.
You're not the only one. :)
True, the potential of getting a powerfull enemy after you is a disadvantage that can compensate the balance
2) I only barely considered that. I should have put more thought into it. I was afraid that 5 + caster level would be way too easy. Since Profession is a class skill for all classes, we're looking at at least a +13 by level 10. With 5 + CL, the DC is 20, a 7+ gets it. With 5+2xCL, the DC is 35, so a 22+ gets it. Ouch. What about 5+1.5xCL? DC = 27, so you'd need a 14+. Tough, but with a WIS modifier, it can drop it, and Skill Focus could help out.What do you think? 5+CL or 5+1.5xCL?
1.5 could work.
Raising the base dc depending on item type could work too. Potions and scrolls could be DC5+CL, Weapons,armors and wands DC10+CL. Rods,rings,staves and Wondrous DC10+CL.
Or maybe by item worth. Less then 5000 DC5+, less then 40000 dc10+ and 40000 and up DC 15+
On second thought i think I like 1.5 best but im leaving the alt here just as general brainstorm feed
Heists are fun but not suitable for every character still and really there is no reason why spellcasters wouldn't be able to (some would say better). Why not simply remove the caster lvl requirement on feats and replace it with ranks in spellcraft ?I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to say, here.
1) If you are saying, "Why can't spellcasters take the burglary feats?" then I agree. I put non-caster in the description when I wrote it up, but by the time I thought to change it, I couldn't edit the original post anymore. Really, any character could take these.
2) If you are suggesting that all of this could be circumvented by simply changing the normal crafting feat requirements of caster level to spellcraft ranks, then that is certainly possible.
Advantages: Other characters can craft as casters can, using rules already set in place.
Disadvantage: Other characters will rely upon scrolls or casters to get the appropriate spells for making the magic item. This will increase the cost and make some of the craft feats, such as scribe scroll, completely pointless for a non-caster. It will also make many cheap magic items pointless to make.Plus, then the character's wouldn't be able to go on a heist! :)
Edit: Also, there is already a way for non-casters to do this: Master Craftsmen feat.
3) If you are also saying that casters are still better than non-casters, I would agree. However, most casters are already feat starved, and taking crafting feats is not recommended in most of the optimization guides. This provides an opportunity for other builds - which may not be as feat starved as most casters - to "craft" magic items in a new flavorful way.
I meant pretty much all of them, additionally :
While it is perfectly fine for the paladin to storm the evil stronghold, kill all the evil doers and loot their corpses, it is not quite as morally approved to just loot them and leave them alive.
I find the master craftsman feat unneeded, just allow non-casters to make magical items with spellcraft as well if they invest the ranks and the feat, master craftsman might still be useful for the +2 bonus and the fact you can use a craft check instead.
It is sill a nice idea for themed campaigns, though I'd rather play out the heist.
It is sill a nice idea for themed campaigns, though I'd rather play out the heist.
Very true. And I would as well. But like I said earlier, those campaigns seem rare.
Do you know of any published modules which incorporate heists in all of D&D or Pathfinder? I can't think of any. I've never had a GM run one, and I have now only heard of two tables to play one (shifty and cardboard hero).
While it is perfectly fine for the paladin to storm the evil stronghold, kill all the evil doers and loot their corpses, it is not quite as morally approved to just loot them and leave them alive.
True. The paladin also doesn't have to know what the fighter is doing during downtime. And this gives the fighter something to do out of combat.
On a crit, you get away Scot free. On a fumble, definitely combat.
On a normal result, the ones trying to track you down must beat that number on a search, gather information, or tracking result.
I'm going to rate this terrible. This is worse than Strike Back for locking something anyone should be able to do behind a feat.
We need real heist rules.
Preliminary Outline:
** spoiler omitted **Add some rogue talents to support things and this could have enough content to justify publication.
Those are some great ideas!
However, I think you misinterpreted the point of my post. I wasn't creating heist rules, I was expanding magic item creation rules to non-casters in a new way.
Based on that, I am confused how it is terrible for "locking something anyone could do behind a feat." Magic item creation is already locked behind feats. This just expands it to non-casters without a two feat dip.
In order to make a magic item, you need a specific feat, a single skill roll, and some cash. This is the same thing with a new flavor.
We need real heist rules.Preliminary Outline:
** spoiler omitted **Add some rogue talents to support things and this could have enough content to justify publication.
I don't mind your suggestion, and think it has a fair bit of merit.
I think that a Heist (or any long job) can certainly be divided into discrete stages and given some kind of abstraction and challenge system similar to the 'chase rules'.
Food for thought.
I also think this could be made available more broadly in stealth/surveillance. Lets face it, whilst it is fun and thrilling to be a rogue at the game table (or even a ranger in the woods) stopping gameplay for an extended period where you 'do your thing' can bore the rest of the party to tears if they aren't involved. A fast-play resolution system which trncates the process would be ideal.
It really dawned on me how effective this could be during PBP games where times are significantly magnified. No kidding, it took almost a fortnight of waiting for a Rogue to do a basic recon od the front area of a dungeon,,, A FORTNIGHT!A>!!!111!>?
I might start writing a few thieves adventures again... hmm...
Rich collectors often have their own stronghold out in the countryside.
Rich collectors often have their own stronghold out in the countryside.
If you have Keep on the Borderlands or something you can use the map and floor plans. Rich merchants often retire to used castles.
Yeah I used to keep stacks and stacks of maps for just this sort of thing.
At the end of the day, certain areas will have a ot of 'similar' buildings because architects and labourers would obviously work an area, and quite often simply replicate buildings.
It is sill a nice idea for themed campaigns, though I'd rather play out the heist.Very true. And I would as well. But like I said earlier, those campaigns seem rare.
Do you know of any published modules which incorporate heists in all of D&D or Pathfinder? I can't think of any. I've never had a GM run one, and I have now only heard of two tables to play one (shifty and cardboard hero).
While it is perfectly fine for the paladin to storm the evil stronghold, kill all the evil doers and loot their corpses, it is not quite as morally approved to just loot them and leave them alive.True. The paladin also doesn't have to know what the fighter is doing during downtime. And this gives the fighter something to do out of combat.
Dungeon mag had a 1e heist, and there are a few d20 ones some of them solo some not.
Check out the Burglary and other fine hobbies thread for some nice links on heist rules and heist type adventures...
Sounds nice, but why?
Any non-caster can take a trait to make Spellcraft a class skill with +1, that's +4 off the bat. Pick the feat that allows you to craft magic items and pick wondrous item feat, spend favored on skills or buy a +2 headband, full crafting, -5 for each spell you can't cast. Fixed with Umd traited and wands?
I take this as more of something you could do so your party doesn't have to waste their time waiting for the rogue to steal something. Or so your full plate fighter who insists on following you with a -10 stealth, doesn't completely blow your cover. Or if there's that character in every party that is against stealing, then they don't have to be a part of it. Quick rolls, it's done, no one bickering at the table.
Just last night I attempted 2 quick pickpockets and I could feel everyone at the table tensing up. Not because I might fail, but because I was wasting their time.
You can roll on skills, professions, crafts, and perform checks. While the Rogue is being a cat burglar, the cleric can be healing and feeding the poor, while the bard performs and passes the hat. If they attract a crowd for the medicine man he can get paid for it in tonic(heals one point and stabilizes). If a party member loses a level you can arrange special jobs that earns them XPs.
More on topic, a carpenter can remove a window to gain access to the bedroom of a miser who is just hoarding diamonds.